Opinions - AutoTRAX Design Express 2020

[borisdekat]

Hi, I would like to share my recent experience with Autotrax to this group.

I did came across Autotrax I think about 10 years ago, did try it out and basically for the same reason (see below) I quit for several years. 6 months ago I tried again, invested many many hours in it and I am sorry to say I just bought an hobbyist v7 Eagle license and dumped Autrotrax for the second time...(and probably forever).

Main issue with this program is ...the programmer, Ilija...This guy is not listening to experienced CAD users and unwilling to implement or change product behavior.  This program looks very nice, good looking GUI but just lacks stability and functions needed for a basic CAD schematic/PCB design package. It has a lot of bells and whistles but solid basic functions are poorly implemented/lacking.

As an example:
- Not able to have multiple footprints for one schematic symbols and lacks ability to change footprint easily when doing PCB design (for custom made parts). So it is not possible to change easily a 4E wired resistor for a 6E spaced type.
- If you try to add parts after you have routed your PCB it will un-route  the complete tracks on the PCB (Image you have done a complete +12V route and adding just one part to this +12V, it is completely un-routed...). Response from Ilija: just don't do that...
- Part libraries which come together with the base install are just dead wrong (too small SMD pads, too small hole diameters). Just very sloppy.
- Making selection for cut and paste is in-adequate. No option to de-select part of a selection.

This, together with a heavily moderated Yahoo group (posts which Ilija dislike are not published !) forced me to go back to Eagle and to post this warning to potential users. If you are in for a good looking, fancy application go for Autrotrax, however if you need something which will really support  your work creating in a fast pace a schematic and ultimate PCB: look for something else....

Just my observation of a 6 month struggle...

Boris.

[DerekG]

Hi, I would like to share my recent experience with Autotrax to this group.

Much appreciated.

Main issue with this program is ...the programmer, Ilija...This guy is not listening to experienced CAD users and unwilling to implement or change product behavior.  This program looks very nice, good looking GUI but just lacks stability and functions needed for a basic CAD schematic/PCB design package. It has a lot of bells and whistles but solid basic functions are poorly implemented/lacking.

Yes, I too was drawn to AutoTRAX early this year by its very friendly GUI. But (as you mention) there are basic functions that just don't work.

Response from Ilija: just don't do that...

You were lucky to get a reply. If you look back through this thread you will see I contacted Iliya Kovac by 2 different methods in February/March regarding some core problems with the program.

I'm still waiting for a reply.

Iliya Kovac was a member of this forum early on, received some flak from several users, got the shits up then deleted his posts & cancelled his membership.

He then joined again more recently & one of his new posts is at the top of this page.

This, together with a heavily moderated Yahoo group (posts which Ilija dislike are not published !)

Yes, Iliya Kovac used to have a number of support forums for AutoTRAX DEX 2020. But they are all closed up now with the Yahoo Forum being the only one left. Other's have also reported that he moderates it heavily.

forced me to go back to Eagle

Take a look at DipTrace & Proteus. These are both excellent programs as the lower end of the $$ spectrum. I own Altium 6.9 & Diptrace. I use Altum 13 & 14 & Proteus 8 as a pcb contractor for other companies .............. and I like DipTrace & Proteus the most.

Just my observation of a 6 month struggle...

I understand completely. You followed exactly in my footsteps. I was excited when I came across AutoTRAX, then the frustration built up, then I requested support for what I could only determine were bugs in the program, then I abandoned the software as there is/was no support coming my way.

Thanks again for sharing your experience. At least I know it was just not me who could not get to the point of successfully generating gerbers using AutoTRAX DEX 2020.

[Iliya]

Hi Boris

From your emails to me you:

• Add part
• Wire it to other parts
• Layout the part in the PCB
• route the new wires
• Go to 1 and repeat until done.

I told you this is very inefficient and will cost you a lot of time and the final board will be terrible!

Adding connections and parts to a board will make the board layout and routing sub-optimal. E.g. simply adding a decoupling capacitor as in the video below. Where do you place it.  Then what effects on routing?  Your case was extreme, you literally lays out and route after adding each part and wire is added to the schematic. I know DEX lets you do this if you want but it is not the way to do circuit design.
See video...
http://kov.com/news/no-unrouting.mp4

You are wrong. There is no un-routing problem. See video.

[Iliya]

Yes, I too was drawn to AutoTRAX early this year by its very friendly GUI. But (as you mention) there are basic functions that just don't work.

Basic functions that just don't work! - very sweeping and contains no specifics. How about reporting them using the Help->Support-Report menu item in DEX instead of just posting glib negative comments.

You were lucky to get a reply. If you look back through this thread you will see I contacted Iliya Kovac by 2 different methods in February/March regarding some core problems with the program.

I'm still waiting for a reply.

Iliya Kovac was a member of this forum early on, received some flak from several users, got the shits up then deleted his posts & cancelled his membership.

He then joined again more recently & one of his new posts is at the top of this page.

I don't know who you are so I cannot trace your emails to me. DerekG is definitely not in my database.
As for getting the 'shit up'; well, you are not right. I deleted the posts and cancelled the membership as I thought there were too many Trolls who seems to really be posting glib negative comments. Some seemed to have an allegiance to other software such as Altium/Diptrace - see below...

This, together with a heavily moderated Yahoo group (posts which Ilija dislike are not published!)

Yes, Iliya Kovac used to have a number of support forums for AutoTRAX DEX 2020. But they are all closed up now with the Yahoo Forum being the only one left. Other's have also reported that he moderates it heavily.

I do not moderate the user group heavily. I only remove spam and hate mail. The AutoTRAX user group has 2968 members. Diptrace (One of the programs you own) has 2590.

Take a look at DipTrace & Proteus. These are both excellent programs as the lower end of the $$ spectrum. I own Altium 6.9 & Diptrace. I use Altum 13 & 14 & Proteus 8 as a pcb contractor for other companies .............. and I like DipTrace & Proteus the most.

Ummm, I detect some bias here. If you own Altium 6.9 & Diptrace it suggests at least one was not up to the task. Why did you purchase DEX? Is it that you think both Altium 6.9 & Diptrace were not suitable?

I understand completely. You followed exactly in my footsteps. I was excited when I came across AutoTRAX, then the frustration built up, then I requested support for what I could only determine were bugs in the program, then I abandoned the software as there is/was no support coming my way.

Can't find any problem reports from DerekG.

Thanks again for sharing your experience. At least I know it was just not me who could not get to the point of successfully generating gerbers using AutoTRAX DEX 2020.

Yet another glib comment. AutoTRAX DEX 2020 produces correct Gerber (It should be capitalized as it's a name)
Can't find any problem reports from DerekG
It would be nice if people could just be constructive, even in their criticism. The internet would be a better place and I might find some things I could fix/improve in AutoTRAX.

And finally...

I also sat between Elvis & Bigfoot on the UFO.

What's that all about?

[DerekG]

There is no un-routing problem. See video.

Good to hear from you Iliya. For those who don't know, Iliya Kovac is the developer of AutoTRAX DEX 2020.

Please hang around to help users & to defend your software. Much appreciated.

Note to any poster in this thread: Be reasonable as the moderators will not stand for what went on last year in this thread. I will keep an eye on the posts from this time forth.

[Iliya]

IIRC AutoTrax EDA was, and still is written by a single guy.
So that's a very impressive achievement of course, but I would not bet on it as a long term supported tool in that case. For hobby use etc that's not really an issue of course.

Dave.

I'm still here 2 years later and giving support.
See the new AutoTRAX forum http://forum.kov.com/

Regards
Iliya Kovac

[Iliya]

IIRC AutoTrax EDA was, and still is written by a single guy.
So that's a very impressive achievement of course, but I would not bet on it as a long term supported tool in that case. For hobby use etc that's not really an issue of course.

Dave.

I'm still here 2 years later and giving support.
See the new AutoTRAX forum http://forum.kov.com/

Regards
Iliya Kovac

Hi Dave
Just a thought about long term support from large companies compared to small ones.

• AutoTRAX Dos
  
• EasyTrax
  
• CircuitMaker
  
• P-CAD
  

All appear as dead as the Dodo or is it the Parrot?

Altiums' web site states none are supported.
http://techdocs.altium.com/display/ALEG/Legacy+Downloads

Maybe size doesn't matter, perhaps it's more about loving what you are doing. I love AutoTRAX DEX, its my baby!

[DerekG]

Can't find any problem reports from DerekG.

Hi Iliya,

I have sent you a personal message giving the date of download & date of signup to the Yahoo Forum (along with my Yahoo username) and also a brief description of the component picking problem I experienced.

Many thanks,

Derek.

[Mechatrommer]

Thanks again for sharing your experience. At least I know it was just not me who could not get to the point of successfully generating gerbers using AutoTRAX DEX 2020.

Yet another glib comment. AutoTRAX DEX 2020 produces correct Gerber (It should be capitalized as it's a name)
Can't find any problem reports from DerekG
It would be nice if people could just be constructive, even in their criticism. The internet would be a better place and I might find some things I could fix/improve in AutoTRAX.

here we go again. i'm not going to give any "constructive" comment since it will be mistakenly interpreted as "glib"? or troll.... my final "constructive" comment... stop being defensive. 

[DerekG]

i'm not going to give any "constructive" comment since it will be mistakenly interpreted as "glib"? or troll.... my final "constructive" comment... stop being defensive. 

Iliya Kovac has responded to me. He asks that I download the latest copy & he has reset my trial date.

I'm pretty sure Iliya would do the same for you too. Send him a personal message with your trial/registration details. We both then have an opportunity to see how far AutoTRAX DEX 2020 has come during this past year.

I can understand that Iliya prefers to have any bugs referred directly to him before posting them on the web. This gives him an opportunity to overcome them in good time.

If the bugs are significant & they are not overcome, then they can be placed on the web to apply pressure on the developer to do something about it.

I suspect that Iliya has returned to this forum as it pops up in Google's search engine at the top/near the top of the search results.

It is much better for us all to be constructive & to work with the developer. In this way we have an opportunity to work with him to continually have DEX 2020 improved.

If you want to give DEX 2020 another go, please let us know what Iliya is willing to organise for you.

[Iliya]

If you download AutoTRAX your demo period will be reset.
http://kov.com/Download

You can see What's new in AutoTRAX

http://kov.com/DownloadFiles/whatsnew.pdf

In it you will see the bugs that are fixed.
AutoTRAX has built in bug reporting - click Help->Support->Report Problem

[Mechatrommer]

I'm pretty sure Iliya would do the same for you too.

no thanks. until the following issues are fixed..
1) routing like normal eda (45 degree angle only, not random angle trace)
2) faster graphic rendering
3) a working sim (or a guide/help file on how to. all i got is empty sim window)
well... thats constructive isnt it? i dont expect to here excuses such as.. "its working ok in my (developer) computer." until then, a $50 software will never work for me.

[Iliya]

It's all working on my computer.

I right click during routing to select between free, orthogonal (horizontal+vertical segments)  and ortho-angled routing (horizontal/vertical+vertical segments).
Even during free routing, snap is great and the 90/45 route visuals are fine.
Th parallel track move and the ortho 90/45 degrees on the View/Snap/Tracks menu are also useful. I'm spoilt for choice; route like Eagle, route like Diptrace or route like I want to do.

My graphics are fine. Perhaps you could check your O/S, graphics card/computer/memory.

Simulation is OK. DEX has a Help/Support/Report Problem button. Have you every thought of using that?

Hopefully this will help.

[mswhin63]

Mine seems to be working fine as well, no problems with graphics as well. If I had the money I would buy a decent software, although I do have a professional licensed version of Eagle, I am still at odds with it.

Overall I can adapt with each software as it is created and changed and have no real opinion. It is possible that some people cannot adapt, possibly from long time use of a particular software.

I suppose the real test will be usability as I develop more complex projects.

[Iliya]

Mine seems to be working fine as well, no problems with graphics as well. If I had the money I would buy a decent software, although I do have a professional licensed version of Eagle, I am still at odds with it.

Overall I can adapt with each software as it is created and changed and have no real opinion. It is possible that some people cannot adapt, possibly from long time use of a particular software.

I suppose the real test will be usability as I develop more complex projects.

Don't forget to give your feedback to help me make AutoTRAX DEX better. Click on Help->Support->Wishlist an it will take you to [url=http://kov.com/Support/WishList]http://kov.com/Support/WishList[/url]

[Iliya]

Software License

Having stumped up the 49 bucks for a full licence, you can install DEX wherever you want, home or office and on any number of machine.

The only restriction is that DEX should be running on only one machine at a time. So several different people can use DEX, but only one person at a time.

There is no restriction on the number of machines you install it on. Just 1 user at a time.

What enables that full licence is a sign-in/password and user profile. Entering your sign-in and password opens up the software and gives you immediate access to all your options and capabilities. Now compare and contrast this to how today’s traditional software is licensed.

Most EDA software is licensed and locked to a single workstation or laptop, sometimes both. Not DEX. Consider that fact alone. The software that you (or your company) paid upwards of five grand for, is locked to a single machine. If you want to move it and work at a different location (either on the shopfloor, at a customer site or in the field), then you need to either purchase an additional networked licensing system (commonly referred to as floating licences), buy another licence for a laptop, or go through a convoluted process of transferring that licence.

Now, I’m perfectly aware that the current EDA professional design software market has different dynamics to the consumer software world — but does that sound like a situation that can continue? I suspect not.

Whether we like it or not, the next generation of users are going to want a completely different environment in which to work — their experiences during those formative years will drive how software will change. Or at least, it should.

What’s interesting is that these types of frustrations aren’t restricted to new entrants into the design and engineering industry . It’s clear that many long term users share the same frustrations and are looking for something that changes that status quo that rules in the EDA software world.

They want to be able to have not only their software more mobile, but their data as well. When I say mobile, I don’t mean being able to pan/zoom/rotate an assembly on an iPad, but rather something more useful. So, for instance, they want to have availability of their authoring tools, whether that’s licences that move with them or their data.

Does that sound appealing?

[DerekG]

For those who are interested, there is a review of AutoTrax DEX by Free Electron (a PCB CAD designer at Tesla Motors). The link is below:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/dex-eval-by-free_electron/

[MisterBiscuit]

Whether we like it or not, the next generation of users are going to want a completely different environment in which to work — their experiences during those formative years will drive how software will change. Or at least, it should.

Even though I'm not part of the "next generation", Iliya is clearly onto something that too many of us old timers erroneously ignore. The next generation of hardware makers is not going to be interested in EDA software that works like it was written in the 80's to run on DOS machines with CGA screens. They're going to expect the environment to evolve or they're going to leave it in the dust.

What I see Iliya doing here is packing as much functionality as possible into DEX. That's something that no other EDA platform within my financial reach is doing. Does that strategy introduce complexity? Yes. Are there user experience enhancements that could be made to made DEX easier to master? Of course. From a cross-platform perspective, would it be nice if DEX wasn't tied so tightly to Windows technology. You betcha'. But the end result is that Iliya has staked out his position in the market to focus on a single platform and jam as much capability into it as possible. You've gotta' admire that, especially if you're a license holder of EAGLE or DipTrace and wait through 1 Year+ development cycles for incremental feature updates.

[IanJ]

My graphics are fine. Perhaps you could check your O/S, graphics card/computer/memory.

The graphics are slow when you pan around a pcb.....compare it to EaglePCB or Altium Circuitmaker and there is a big difference. My one & only complaint about DEX. Would love to see this issue fixed.

Win7, Intel i7(4770), 8gb ram, with two different graphics cards tested (Asus HD7770 & Nvidia GT640).

Ian.

[mswhin63]

I have almost the same set-up as you i7 4770, GT740 next model up but I have no problem with graphics both resolution of speed. I have Eagle Pro as well as a comparison

[ozwolf]

I have even less of a system - Win7, Intel Core 2 Duo @ 2.20 GHz, 4 GB RAM, 32 bit system.

Runs very well with my small projects, labours a bit with a 9 layer BGA (10X10) X 6 sample project, but that is to be expected for my system.

How big are your projects?

[Warhawk]

My graphics are fine. Perhaps you could check your O/S, graphics card/computer/memory.

The graphics are slow when you pan around a pcb.....compare it to EaglePCB or Altium Circuitmaker and there is a big difference. My one & only complaint about DEX. Would love to see this issue fixed.

Win7, Intel i7(4770), 8gb ram, with two different graphics cards tested (Asus HD7770 & Nvidia GT640).

Ian.

I can confirm the same slow behavior. Setup: Core i5, 8GB ram, SSD, Win 7. I tested it only with the imported Eagle project. It was like 1 FPS.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/dex-eval-by-free_electron/msg641342/#msg641342

[IanJ]

The way I reported the problem is as follows:-

Pinch a pcb (4" pcb zoomed to fill the screen)) in the midde and pan around (reasonably fast), change direction a lot etc.........so how far does your mouse pointer vary from the picked position as the graphics try to play catchup?

EaglePCB = 0.1" to 0.2"
Altium Circuitmaker = 0.1" to 0.2"
DEX = 0.5" or more.

When you are used to Eagle like I am then DEX seems very lethargic.

Win7, Intel i7(4770), 8gb ram, with two different graphics cards tested (Asus HD7770 & Nvidia GT640).
Dual monitor setup.

Ian.

[rsjsouza]

I perceive the graphics "catching up" with the cursor, but in my case it is up to par with your measurements for Eagle and Altium - i.e., it does not come anywhere near half a second.

My system is very similar: Intel Core i7 920 2.8GHz (quad core) with 16GB RAM and Nvidia GTX 650 Ti with driver release 9.18.13.4788 (347.88 in Nvidia's numbering) running at 1280x1024x32 (dual monitor) on Windows 7/64.

[IanJ]

0.5".....meaning half an inch.

Ian.