Author Topic: Introducing: Raspberry Pi 5!  (Read 9604 times)

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Offline KarelTopic starter

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Introducing: Raspberry Pi 5!
« on: September 28, 2023, 01:27:53 pm »
Today, we’re delighted to announce the launch of Raspberry Pi 5, coming at the end of October.
Priced at $60 for the 4GB variant, and $80 for its 8GB sibling (plus your local taxes), virtually every
aspect of the platform has been upgraded, delivering a no-compromises user experience.
Raspberry Pi 5 comes with new features, it’s over twice as fast as its predecessor, and it’s the first
Raspberry Pi computer to feature silicon designed in‑house here in Cambridge, UK.

Key features include:

    2.4GHz quad-core 64-bit Arm Cortex-A76 CPU
    VideoCore VII GPU, supporting OpenGL ES 3.1, Vulkan 1.2
    Dual 4Kp60 HDMI® display output
    4Kp60 HEVC decoder
    Dual-band 802.11ac Wi-Fi®
    Bluetooth 5.0 / Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE)
    High-speed microSD card interface with SDR104 mode support
    2 × USB 3.0 ports, supporting simultaneous 5Gbps operation
    2 × USB 2.0 ports
    Gigabit Ethernet, with PoE+ support (requires separate PoE+ HAT, coming soon)
    2 × 4-lane MIPI camera/display transceivers
    PCIe 2.0 x1 interface for fast peripherals
    Raspberry Pi standard 40-pin GPIO header
    Real-time clock
    Power button



https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/introducing-raspberry-pi-5/

 
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Offline MK14

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Re: Introducing: Raspberry Pi 5!
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2023, 02:28:33 pm »
Although on the one hand, I'm very excited that they are going to be releasing the new improved Raspberry 5 (the previous PI 4, was often plagued by severe shortages, because of Covid and things, through most of its release life).

I'm a little bit disappointed, (although after-market add-ons and even official add-ons, are likely to resolve many or all of these things), they haven't, as standard addressed things like:

Improved thermal handling, when under big CPU loads. (But it does look like they will be selling official solutions to that issue).
Increasing maximum memory (RAM) to 16 GB or more. (But 8 GB is plenty for many things, even the 4 GB version, is usually perfectly fine).
Giving eMMC storage options, to replace the potentially unreliable microSD cards.
Putting some kind of M.2 slot, for SSDs, which are becoming so affordable with ever increasing capacities, that it would make a very nice addition.

On the other hand.  Prices seem to have remained rather affordable, and putting in some of my suggestions, could have increased the price too much, especially for some use case scenarios.

I suspect, there will be (relatively soon), special after-market cases, which resolve the possible cooling issues and give it an M.2 slot, as well as maybe other features.

It is possible an unannounced 16 GB version, is planned for the future.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2023, 02:32:06 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline MK14

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Re: Introducing: Raspberry Pi 5!
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2023, 03:00:41 pm »
The following video (Jeff Geerling), seems to be rather good (describing many of the improvements), giving lots of details and more, about the Raspberry PI 5.



From the Video:
It seems it can readily support M.2 drives, because of the built in, PCIe connector, via hats.
It also seems that 16 GB RAM, is now possible, so may be released, some time in the future.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2023, 03:02:43 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline Postal2

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Re: Introducing: Raspberry Pi 5!
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2023, 05:47:22 pm »
Why "embedded computing"?? In my opinion, all stuff powered with fan is not, and cannot be embedded.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Introducing: Raspberry Pi 5!
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2023, 08:20:12 pm »
Sounds cool. Question is: what about price? "Similarly" spec'ed SBCs from competitors are in the > $100 range. Let's see what they offer here. Will they *really* manage the  "$60 for the 4GB variant, and $80 for its 8GB sibling" price tag in the end? (Note that if you add VAT you'll end up in the $100 area anyway.)

Other than that, unless I missed it, I think it would have been cool if they had integrated a RP2040, but I guess that if would have required an additional connector (re-using the "standard" 40-pin header to break out a number of RP2040 GPIOs would have made the thing incompatible with all the "hats" ecosystem.)
« Last Edit: September 28, 2023, 08:21:48 pm by SiliconWizard »
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Introducing: Raspberry Pi 5!
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2023, 08:34:12 pm »
From the Video:
It seems it can readily support M.2 drives, because of the built in, PCIe connector, via hats.
...

About time. They've been relying on SD cards for far too long.
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Offline mariush

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Re: Introducing: Raspberry Pi 5!
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2023, 09:40:51 pm »
I'm not sure if technically doable, but maybe they could have gone a step further and put the lpddr4x ram on a stick or something (m.2 like) and sell the ram as optional upgrade?

and 5$ for a battery... sigh... how to penny pinch money from people. would have made more sense to sell a battery holder with wires, because the battery itself may not be shipped by air.  Adafruit can sell one through Digikey for $1 : https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/adafruit-industries-llc/4856/13908439

 

Online beanflying

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Re: Introducing: Raspberry Pi 5!
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2023, 11:59:49 pm »
The following video (Jeff Geerling), seems to be rather good (describing many of the improvements), giving lots of details and more, about the Raspberry PI 5.



From the Video:
It seems it can readily support M.2 drives, because of the built in, PCIe connector, via hats.
It also seems that 16 GB RAM, is now possible, so may be released, some time in the future.

PCIe 2.0 x1 lane :palm:

While it might be good value for the $ it is still lacking performance too.

« Last Edit: September 29, 2023, 12:21:16 am by beanflying »
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Offline MK14

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Re: Introducing: Raspberry Pi 5!
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2023, 12:25:52 am »
PCIe 2.0 x1 lane :palm:

What PCIe specification, can you get for a brand new, desktop PC, laptop or similar, with a brand new asking price of $60 to $80?

Currently, AMD Zen 4 CPUs, seem to start at around > $200 for a 7600. in the UK.  The motherboards cost a small fortune, as well.

That seems to be enough PCIe, to give around 500 MB/s, which is fine for many things.  I.e. It is similar to SATA speeds.

Taking the relatively low price, tiny size and relatively low power consumption (a video seems to measure around 6 watts, under a full load application), it doesn't seem too bad.

It seems to be a lot better than previous Pi models.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2023, 12:30:49 am by MK14 »
 

Offline MK14

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Re: Introducing: Raspberry Pi 5!
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2023, 12:33:42 am »
While it might be good value for the $ it is still lacking performance too.

But it is trying to be a small, cheap car, for driving from A to B.

Not a $500,000 250 MPH sports car.

There is more to life, than driving at 300 MPH everywhere.
 

Online beanflying

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Re: Introducing: Raspberry Pi 5!
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2023, 12:42:05 am »
PCIe 2.0x1 is on par with USB3.1 (without checking) so the point is while 'nice' is is hardly a feature. You may as well go buy an external USB adapter. Given they rolled custom IO silicon this is shortsighted.

It is not about putting the product down at all but just technically it doesn't deserve to be overhyped for performance it doesn't have against other offerings already in the market.

The clearly tried the PC hardware review embargo thing here as every vaguely related SBC talking head on YouTube got one to promote pre orders.
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Offline brucehoult

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Re: Introducing: Raspberry Pi 5!
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2023, 12:42:55 am »
Will they *really* manage the  "$60 for the 4GB variant, and $80 for its 8GB sibling" price tag in the end?

What do you mean by that? You can preorder one right now, for the advertised price. And I have -- see my order confirmation below. The store (Pimoroni) told me it will ship around October 23. No UK VAT was added and as it is under NZ$1000 I won't get charged NZ GST either. Tracked shipping to NZ added £12.50 (or untracked for £10).

Quote
Other than that, unless I missed it, I think it would have been cool if they had integrated a RP2040, but I guess that if would have required an additional connector (re-using the "standard" 40-pin header to break out a number of RP2040 GPIOs would have made the thing incompatible with all the "hats" ecosystem.)

According to Yearling the RP1 shares a lot with the RP2040, is used to drive the GPIO, and is probably user-programmable with code running with the Pi "off".

 
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Offline djacobow

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Re: Introducing: Raspberry Pi 5!
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2023, 01:11:38 am »
What do you mean by that?

That's a really weird thing to say given the last couple of years we've been through. It has been a long time since you can get a pi for the advertised price in a timely manner. Let's click reload on rpilocator.com and roll the dice again!

And even now when supply has eased, the places showing the pi foundation official price are still typically limiting you to qty 1, and of course, full shipping cost each time.

Sometimes something can be technically true without being usefully true.
 
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Offline Veteran68

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Re: Introducing: Raspberry Pi 5!
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2023, 01:19:58 am »
That's a really weird thing to say given the last couple of years we've been through. It has been a long time since you can get a pi for the advertised price in a timely manner. Let's click reload on rpilocator.com and roll the dice again!

Pi 4's have been generally available at regular price recently. I bought another 4GB model from Pishop.us a couple months ago. I just looked and they still have stock, plus the limit has been increased to 10/month from 1/month.
 

Offline MK14

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Re: Introducing: Raspberry Pi 5!
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2023, 01:28:11 am »
PCIe 2.0x1 is on par with USB3.1 (without checking) so the point is while 'nice' is is hardly a feature. You may as well go buy an external USB adapter. Given they rolled custom IO silicon this is shortsighted.

It is not about putting the product down at all but just technically it doesn't deserve to be overhyped for performance it doesn't have against other offerings already in the market.

The clearly tried the PC hardware review embargo thing here as every vaguely related SBC talking head on YouTube got one to promote pre orders.

I think, by spending relatively small amounts of money, here and there.  The Raspberry Pi 5, could be improved, speed wise and in other respects.

But, the team, seem to keep a very careful eye on the intended asking / selling price, so keep a very tight reign on such things, to keep the costs, sensible.

As I see it.  It is the reliable, long term availability, of a range (of at least one or more) of working operating systems, for these Raspberry Pi Boards, that makes them especially useful.

There are plenty of potentially, cheaper (often) Chinese boards (e.g. via Ali-express).  But it can be tricky, to get reliable (reasonably bug-free), operating systems, documentation, drivers and support, especially as the boards, get older.
 

Offline brucehoult

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Re: Introducing: Raspberry Pi 5!
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2023, 01:31:11 am »
What do you mean by that?

That's a really weird thing to say given the last couple of years we've been through.

That was then, this is now.

Quote
And even now when supply has eased, the places showing the pi foundation official price are still typically limiting you to qty 1, and of course, full shipping cost each time.

I'm not interested in old Pis (I already have them, from pre-pandemic) but it doesn't seem surprising that a new product would be restricted at launch.

And even if you for some reason want more than one, paying $10 world-wide shipping on an $80 board is a heck of a lot less painful than paying it on a $5 board.
 

Offline MK14

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Re: Introducing: Raspberry Pi 5!
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2023, 01:31:58 am »
still typically limiting you to qty 1, and of course, full shipping cost each time.

Talking specifically about the Raspberry PI 5.  It is fairly normal (if I remember correctly), for the initial release to have a very limited quantity available (sells out very quickly), and possibly limit customers to a maximum of 1.  Until they have had time to ramp up production, and the demand settles down to relatively normal levels.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Introducing: Raspberry Pi 5!
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2023, 01:43:36 am »
Will they *really* manage the  "$60 for the 4GB variant, and $80 for its 8GB sibling" price tag in the end?

What do you mean by that? You can preorder one right now, for the advertised price. And I have -- see my order confirmation below. The store (Pimoroni) told me it will ship around October 23. No UK VAT was added and as it is under NZ$1000 I won't get charged NZ GST either. Tracked shipping to NZ added £12.50 (or untracked for £10).

I don't know how things work in NZ, nor the deal about this $1000 threshold. Over here in EU, we pay VAT on absolutely everything starting at the first cent.
I went to the preorder page, added to cart and unsurprisingly got 20% VAT on top of the base price and shipping. Normal stuff. We just need to be clear about what a "price" means when we're talking with people from all over the world with different systems and different agreements between countries.

Other than this tax thing (which is not specific here), as djacobow said. Prices announced at preorder time are one thing, prices once the product ships on a large scale may become another, and they are likely to further raise over time these days.

Quote
Quote
Other than that, unless I missed it, I think it would have been cool if they had integrated a RP2040, but I guess that if would have required an additional connector (re-using the "standard" 40-pin header to break out a number of RP2040 GPIOs would have made the thing incompatible with all the "hats" ecosystem.)

According to Yearling the RP1 shares a lot with the RP2040, is used to drive the GPIO, and is probably user-programmable with code running with the Pi "off".

Not really. Apparently the RP1 is the I/O controller they designed for the RPi5, it contains pretty much all I/O interfaces (USB, Ethernet, ... and yes, the GPIOs and some UARTs, SPI, I2C), but there is no indication that the GPIOs will even be programmable with something similar to the RP2040's PIO, and I doubt it at this point, but we'll see. Even if this is the case, a complete MCU beside the SoC would IMO have been a good addition, something other SBC vendors do offer, and something that would have made sense for a RPi. So, the RP1 is said to have been designed by the same team as the RP2040, but that doesn't mean that it is anything close to it and even less so that it actually contains a CPU core of some kind. So, this RP1 may be cool and a good idea for lowering costs and integration, but adding a RP2040 to the board wouldn't have hurt IMO. We'll see what this RP1 can really do.

Other than that, there's still no sign of eMMC. What you get is still a microSD slot, and yes, M.2, except that only single lane PCIe as others have pointed out, and according to the product brief, there is no M.2 socket, so it requires an additional adapter to actually connect anything to it.

Note that I'm not basing my first impressions on a video (that I haven't watched), but on elements read on the RPi's site itself.
 

Offline brucehoult

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Re: Introducing: Raspberry Pi 5!
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2023, 02:02:00 am »
I don't know how things work in NZ, nor the deal about this $1000 threshold. Over here in EU, we pay VAT on absolutely everything starting at the first cent.

Until a couple of years ago it was $400. The principle is that there is no point (other than punitive) in charging an importer VAT if the amount collected is less than the administration cost of collecting it.

Quote
Prices announced at preorder time are one thing, prices once the product ships on a large scale may become another, and they are likely to further raise over time these days.

That is unknowable. What I know is I have a legal contract for delivery, my bank app shows my credit card had been charged, and they are obligated to deliver the promised goods at the price agreed and paid.

Quote
Quote
According to Yearling the RP1 shares a lot with the RP2040, is used to drive the GPIO, and is probably user-programmable with code running with the Pi "off".

Not really. Apparently the RP1 is the I/O controller they designed for the RPi5, it contains pretty much all I/O interfaces (USB, Ethernet, ... and yes, the GPIOs and some UARTs, SPI, I2C), but there is no indication that the GPIOs will even be programmable with something similar to the RP2040's PIO, and I doubt it at this point, but we'll see. Even if this is the case, a complete MCU beside the SoC would IMO have been a good addition, something other SBC vendors do offer, and something that would have made sense for a RPi. So, the RP1 is said to have been designed by the same team as the RP2040, but that doesn't mean that it is anything close to it and even less so that it actually contains a CPU core of some kind. So, this RP1 may be cool and a good idea for lowering costs and integration, but adding a RP2040 to the board wouldn't have hurt IMO. We'll see what this RP1 can really do.

I know what the RP1 is. I am quoting what Yearling has said subsequent to using and reviewing the board and asking Raspberry Pi a lot of questions. He's good buddies with Eben and I'm sure gets his questions answered.

e.g.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37686458
« Last Edit: September 29, 2023, 02:03:59 am by brucehoult »
 

Offline djacobow

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Re: Introducing: Raspberry Pi 5!
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2023, 02:03:04 am »
I like the pi's and have used them in a lot of projects and even sold a couple of pi hats, but my love affair has mostly waned.

This new device looks pretty good, perhaps I'll try it out. The main advantage is sticking with raspberry foundation hardware is that raspbian generally works and you will not be needing around with compiling kernel drivers or messing with device overlay files, as is a big part of my life on the rk3588 boards.

That said, one thing that REALLY bugged me about this release announcement is that all the usual suspects had prerelease boards, which means they ALL have relationships with the pi foundation, and as far as I'm concerned, that makes their review close to worthless. Nobody who had a board today is going to say anything seriously critical about pi stuff because they know where their bread is buttered.

There will be reviewers later who actually buy their boards themselves and whose living doesn't depend on suppliers' good graces, and maybe we'll see some honest reviews.
 
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Introducing: Raspberry Pi 5!
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2023, 02:05:28 am »
I don't know how things work in NZ, nor the deal about this $1000 threshold. Over here in EU, we pay VAT on absolutely everything starting at the first cent.

Until a couple of years ago it was $400. The principle is that there is no point (other than punitive) in charging an importer VAT if the amount collected is less than the administration cost of collecting it.

Interesting, now that sounds like a wise decision. Something I would love to see over here as well.

 

Offline brucehoult

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Re: Introducing: Raspberry Pi 5!
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2023, 02:10:40 am »
That said, one thing that REALLY bugged me about this release announcement is that all the usual suspects had prerelease boards, which means they ALL have relationships with the pi foundation, and as far as I'm concerned, that makes their review close to worthless. Nobody who had a board today is going to say anything seriously critical about pi stuff because they know where their bread is buttered.

Most of them are only comparing against the Pi 4, true. But Yearling, at least, also showed benchmarks vs Rock 5 and Orange Pi 5 showing that they are up to 50% faster on many things. The RK3588S version of the Orange Pi 5 isn't much more expensive than the Raspberry Pi.

Software and support-wise, it is definitely safer to go with RPF.  I don't think I've seen any of the others playing Youtube 1080p as smoothly as the Pi 5 and that is the most make or break critical thing many consumers do with these boards.
 
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Introducing: Raspberry Pi 5!
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2023, 02:20:11 am »
For sure, software support is better overall for RPi products. Many SBC alternatives have half-assed support.
If only they could have added at least an eMMC chip. Maybe for the Pi5B. Or Pi6.
 

Online beanflying

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Re: Introducing: Raspberry Pi 5!
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2023, 02:30:56 am »
That said, one thing that REALLY bugged me about this release announcement is that all the usual suspects had prerelease boards, which means they ALL have relationships with the pi foundation, and as far as I'm concerned, that makes their review close to worthless. Nobody who had a board today is going to say anything seriously critical about pi stuff because they know where their bread is buttered.

Most of them are only comparing against the Pi 4, true. But Yearling, at least, also showed benchmarks vs Rock 5 and Orange Pi 5 showing that they are up to 50% faster on many things. The RK3588S version of the Orange Pi 5 isn't much more expensive than the Raspberry Pi.

Software and support-wise, it is definitely safer to go with RPF.  I don't think I've seen any of the others playing Youtube 1080p as smoothly as the Pi 5 and that is the most make or break critical thing many consumers do with these boards.

If you are looking for a solid RK3588S or 3588 OS then make sure you look at this one https://github.com/Joshua-Riek/ubuntu-rockchip it has been great on my OPi5+ for several months now. I spent a week or so using it as my daily driver including a bunch of YouTube and frame drops were minimal after the first few seconds.

Some of the other statements about documentation or Raspberry over the rest had prior foundation in fact but of more recent times some them are getting their act together finally. The RK complete specs and build notes are out there and I have a bunch of them I could post elsewhere if anyone wants them.
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Offline brucehoult

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Re: Introducing: Raspberry Pi 5!
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2023, 02:50:50 am »
If you are looking for a solid RK3588S or 3588 OS then make sure you look at this one https://github.com/Joshua-Riek/ubuntu-rockchip it has been great on my OPi5+ for several months now. I spent a week or so using it as my daily driver including a bunch of YouTube and frame drops were minimal after the first few seconds.

Looks interesting. I have an OPi5+ that arrived a couple of weeks ago but I've so far taken out of the box only to photograph it.

"For the server image you will be able to login through HDMI or a serial console connection. The predefined user is ubuntu and the password is ubuntu."

WHYYYYY???

There are two perfectly good ethernet ports. My RISC-V board vendor server images manage to throw up DHCP and sshd. So much easier than having monitors on a dozen SBCs -- or serial console to the other side of the room or house.
 


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