Besides TPM +PLUTO and all pushed ecrap.. MS will NOT install on HDs...

[rob77]

Some SSDs struggle to achieve SATA speeds... (cable.. host... firmware..)

can you share at least one example please ?

[PKTKS]

Monky i love your insults.. so diligent

Why replace NVRs HDs w SSDs? PRICE!!

I am 100% driven by budget solutions.  I live on a total messy supply chain chaos counting how to keep things working

Lot of ssds require proper  host tweak aka libata negotiations


So far so good replacing 1T today is cheaper and affordable

Paul

[PKTKS]

Some SSDs struggle to achieve SATA speeds... (cable.. host... firmware..)

can you share at least one example please ?

Not sure how  but the symptoms are in the log files...

LIBATA TIMEOUT...  RESETTING DEVICE...

shitty cables are the top culprits

Second comes the host ahci bios

Very common on cheapos

Btw .. so far always fixed with proper libata setup...  when even the best cable is not ok

Paul

[Ranayna]

One relatively prominent example of firmware issues in the past was Samsung.
Several models for the consumer market had an interesting issue: Reading old data that was not touched for some time was slow, down to single digit MByte/s.
Some Western digital models also showed similar behaviour.

Some modern SSDs without DRAM cache can also be quite slow on sustained writes. I myself use a Samsung 870 QVO as game storage SSD. That disk gets slow on sustained writes, down to 80 MByte/s, significantly less that the theoretical throughput of SATA. Read speeds are good (for SATA) though. I deliberately chose that SSD for it's price, and was aware of the limitations.

[gmb42]

(..)
And this change does *not* mean that you can't install Windows on an HDD anymore. It is just a change to the MS certification of complete systems. To get the sticker, you now need an SSD. And that is a good thing as that requirement weeds out a lot of the crap.

I haven't   seen this so superior performance SSDxHDD

Carefully chosen HDs still outperform a wide range of SSD.. at least the average joe consumer seen.

On the other side of the coin.. these new solid state sticks are  clearly paving the way to soldered flash ROMs on gizmos... crappy corporate kiosks  and alike..

Ultimately my guess that given the large consumer base for these corporate kiosks..  that soldered flash will be norm...  leading SSDs and HDs to the void  as "insecure" or outperformed..

Truth is:  business as usual they give  a crap to consumers - the need of cash prevails.

We will see how fast  the soldered solid state - NO VISIBLE LED - is pushed to OEMs

Paul

Unsubscribed from this thread, totally pointless waste of time even reading the garbage nonsense spouted here, which unfortunately for PKTKS isn't just limited to SSD\HDD usage.

[PKTKS]

Some modern SSDs without DRAM cache can also be quite slow on sustained writes. I myself use a Samsung 870 QVO as game storage SSD. That disk gets slow on sustained writes, down to 80 MByte/s, significantly less that the theoretical throughput of SATA. Read speeds are good (for SATA) though. I deliberately chose that SSD for it's price, and was aware of the limitations.

That vary from mobo to mobo and ssd brand.. but so far..

I have been able to fix timeouts with careful log inspection and setup

Regarding LACK OF ACCESS LEDs  i always install those led kits... have a box full of them  and no mobo left wo a led light

In time we will see next   OEM steps.to lock x86 as it seems how things are going...

In due time this will sort it out

Paul

[Monkeh]

Lot of ssds require proper  host tweak aka libata negotiations

Name the specific SSD which requires you to do anything but plug it in and use it. Especially name one which requires any adjustment of a Linux kernel when discussing OEM Windows PCs.

I am 100% driven by budget solutions.  I live on a total messy supply chain chaos counting how to keep things working

You are buying the cheapest recycled garbage which is already ten generations out of date and complaining about it.

[SiliconWizard]

Some SSDs struggle to achieve SATA speeds... (cable.. host... firmware..)

can you share at least one example please ?

Well, while this is relatively uncommon with recent and decent SSDs, I would not be surprised by the above with not-so-decent SSDs, and I don't think the metric is appropriate anyway.
The point is, what alternative do you have?

You may not achieve "SATA speeds" (I'm assuming by that you mean the full theoretical throughput of SATA) with some SSDs, but you will achieve even lower with HDDs, even the fastest ones. So what's the point exactly?

And if you want fast, just use decent NVMe SSDs and they'll literally beat the crap out of any SATA-based solution.

Now if for any reason, you have to settle for cheaper gear, then sure. But again, even a cheap SSD will be much faster than your fastest HDD. If you have ever noticed otherwise, I'll be curious  to see that.

[PKTKS]

Some SSDs struggle to achieve SATA speeds... (cable.. host... firmware..)

can you share at least one example please ?

Well, while this is relatively uncommon with recent and decent SSDs, I would not be surprised by the above with not-so-decent SSDs, and I don't think the metric is appropriate anyway.
The point is, what alternative do you have?

Google for

SSD A2 boot issues...

Folks upgrading hd to ssd finding that are commonly found

Paul

[bd139]

I used to get that on machines before SSDs even existed...

[Monkeh]

So you back up a statement that some SATA SSDs don't saturate the interface by stating some 10 year old boards have BIOS bugs.

 

[bd139]

Classic case of coming to a conclusion and picking information to back it up.

[PKTKS]

I have 2 machines w that classic A2 issue
It is not exclusive related to ssd only
I welcome any folk desperate with same problem to contact me pm ... looking for possible solutions

I claim nothing  more not. else
Paul

[Monkeh]

I have 2 machines w that classic A2 issue
It is not exclusive related to ssd only

So not only does it have nothing to do with performance, it's not even limited to SSDs..

What was your point again? That you've seen buggy hardware? Welcome to the world.

[PKTKS]

I have 2 machines w that classic A2 issue
It is not exclusive related to ssd only

So not only does it have nothing to do with performance, it's not even limited to SSDs..

What was your point again? That you've seen buggy hardware? Welcome to the world.

My point is plain simple Monky:
- keep my buz working sane
- keep best from a limited budget
- extract best long productive life from my tools (investments)
- and in this case if possible even help others with some gotchas..

nasty Corporate folks make all this simple issues a miserable day/day

I am doing fine.
Paul

[Monkeh]

And again we see you have nothing at all to back up your claims.

'nasty corporate folk' are, in this case, trying to make sure you can buy a better computer.

[madires]

In some cases it's the flimsy SATA cable. I had this a few times over the years.

[PKTKS]

In some cases it's the flimsy SATA cable. I had this a few times over the years.

That is correct. about 50% at least the cable should be checked.
You can tweak libata and confirm that.

Other cases not so simple are on BIOS and is not that simple
But w/some clues can also be work around about 80% cases.

However..  the upgrade from HD to SSD is not that direct.
Several factors play a role

Of course.. some creatures just solve their problems ditching things in wasteland
..hoping for the better buying new stuff..  biased by propaganda as if they are perfect..

soon or later other problems arise.. IT has been a dog catch tail like this

Paul

[free_electron]

Some SSDs struggle to achieve SATA speeds... (cable.. host... firmware..)

can you share at least one example please ?

Not sure how  but the symptoms are in the log files...

LIBATA TIMEOUT...  RESETTING DEVICE...

shitty cables are the top culprits

Second comes the host ahci bios

Very common on cheapos

Btw .. so far always fixed with proper libata setup...  when even the best cable is not ok

Paul

so you blame the drive when in reality you admit it is the operating system (libata), the cables and the bios of the motherboard.  the word bass-ackwards comes to mind

[PKTKS]

No my dear I blame nothing nichts...

It just happens...  ad hoc by mixing some brands and BIOS and cables

I have 2 mobos with this issue.
Could barely solve the timeouts by placing a short cable.

However it solved libata timeouts for good.. it did *NOT* solved the BIOS A2 issue
Even w the latest mobo reflash

Give me a break and stop screwing up plain simple facts..

IT industry has been a mad house - that is what it is

Buying new shit never solved that... i doubt it will

Paul 

[PKTKS]

for those just mindless promoting solid state fast replacement..

add up this RATIONALE  and help them to flood the wasteland landfills

https://www.techpowerup.com/296214/steam-deck-engineer-says-ssd-mods-will-significantly-reduce-lifetime-of-the-device

2 cents of jambo...  literally blaming no one.

Paul

PS .... and for these folks still  locked in the MS proprietary wonderland API of windows  widgets and  binary blobs of nonsense GUI thingos...

IgorsLab is putting a nice help to try  to find the odds and bugs and flaws nobody can actually see on this shitty OS...  they are deeply buried and hidden and a LOT  of effort need to be done with THOUSAND clicks to find a simple error glitch.

https://www.igorslab.de/en/troubleshooting/

you know..  ALL TOOLS were not by chance removed from the OS replaced with shitty gui widgets..
have fun crawling these gui applets

[Ranayna]

Seriously? That statement by Valve is an argument against recommending SSDs?
Guess what: There already *is* an SSD in the larger variants of the Steam Deck.

What Valve is doing here, is recommending against a specific kind of upgrade, replacing a physically smaller SSD with a larger one that only fits the case when you modify some cooling pads.
The issue here is not at all with SSD tech directly. It is primarily a cooling issue, since you have to mod the existing cooling pads, larger SSDs tend to get hotter, and the charging chip - which gets hot - is located nearby.

[PKTKS]

well...

we all know that is inevitable all miniaturized solid state (and probably locked) media.
remaining question is when HARD disks will be 100% not viable.

On the other side... we also all know that SSD wear out ... pretty soon depending on the file system and target use.. (NVRs for instance)

so... while this is not happening.. IT DOES MAKE SENSE .. to extend the invested money..

and keep wastelands a little bit longer away..

Paul

[bd139]

PKTKS please get with the times. Your entire world view appears to be backwards nonsense. If you were born 40 years before your time, I'm sure you'd be crowing the golden age of the typewriter.

They are smaller, faster and more reliable than mechanical disks. Simple.

The only reason to buy mechanical disks now is if you want to store lots of data you don't give a crap about cheaply.

The Steam thing is just shitty engineering if it's that sensitive to power delivery. What do you expect when you cram a PC in a handheld form factor? Who the hell though that was a good idea?

As for SSD wear, oh goody they wear out. Yes they do. So do brains evidently. But it's actually not possible to write that quantity of data to a mechanical disk under the 50% MTBF window because the bastard things are so slow!!!!

[free_electron]

I'm sure you'd be crowing the golden age of the typewriter.

Typewriters are bad. It puts scribes and monks out of business , it is too easy to make documents , it's a push from the metal manufacturers, smithing guilds and mechanics to push their agenda and once you bought the damn thing you need to keep buying ribbons at exorbitant prices ! When it breaks own it is nearly irreparable because there are no manuals and nobody has published an open source variant you can assemble yourself. The user interface is shit, the letters are all out of order , it rattles, it uses carriage return/linefeed and one in a while the heads jam and you end up with black fingers trying to unjam them.

Better off with a turkey feather and hand ground black ink.

the P in PKTKS stands for Paranoid