Author Topic: Email alternative to Gmail ?  (Read 27773 times)

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Online Simon

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Re: Email alternative to Gmail ?
« Reply #75 on: March 22, 2021, 08:29:02 pm »
even cheaper to just get shared hosting..... :palm: You people seem to be just off some fringe, it's a free email address or run an entire server for one email account! Oh and don't you think the others are not trying to learn all they can about you? outlook is microsoft, you know the guys that don't sell you windows, it's not a product, it's a service and they are highly controlling these days to the point I am looking at linux again as I'd like to have some semblance of control over the hardware that I own in law!
Sorry Simon, you can't have it both ways here - you can't whinge that running your own email server is weird & too much work  *and* complain all the free providers are spying on you. Also it's a free(ish) world - if I want to run an email server for one address I can do so - I'm not hurting anyone else by doing so am I?

No you just sound weird, a user asks what can I use as an alternative to to gmail and your answer is a home server. And now you are putting words in my mouth, unlike you i am not banging on about one solution only, I am suggesting a third that you choose to ignore.
 

Online grumpydoc

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Re: Email alternative to Gmail ?
« Reply #76 on: March 22, 2021, 08:30:07 pm »
I think on virgin in the UK you tend to always end up on the same IP but any reseller on openreach could be changing your IP address at every glitch and you are sharing it with other users.
Yes, but I'm not on Virgin and I have a completely fixed, not NATed, won't change, publicly routeable IP address, plus an IPV4 /27 (30 addresses) block plus an IPV6 /48 to play with.
 

Online Simon

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Re: Email alternative to Gmail ?
« Reply #77 on: March 22, 2021, 08:33:12 pm »
And I bet you are paying more that £50 a year on top of any other service provider. If you have use for it great but otherwise that is a lot to spend on one email address. Plenty of companies offer email only hosting and it will be cheaper than a full home setup.
 

Online grumpydoc

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Re: Email alternative to Gmail ?
« Reply #78 on: March 22, 2021, 08:35:55 pm »
No you just sound weird, a user asks what can I use as an alternative to to gmail and your answer is a home server. And now you are putting words in my mouth, unlike you i am not banging on about one solution only,
I could do without the ad hominem, thanks, if it's all the same to you; it's getting tiresome and I haven't called you names.

No I'm not suggesting you run a home server - I'm suggesting it is an option and discussing how it might work or what you might pay. I can see that you don't want the hassle which as I said before is totally fine.

But you do have to look at the options and choose what trade off. You've already dissed other providers like Outlook, Yahoo or AOL (and, apparently did not notice that I was suggesting routes other than running a server). So go to a smaller player, or find a paid-for service, or ...

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I am suggesting a third that you choose to ignore.
Sorry, I lost track, what was that option?
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Email alternative to Gmail ?
« Reply #79 on: March 22, 2021, 08:36:24 pm »
Protonmail is used by many journalists. Anything else is better. Plus they dont mine your email for data which becomes their property. . Welcome to the new Digital Apocalypse.  Thats how the Internet companies "work" now. Extortion. They should all be broken up.

Protonmail's client support is limited since it does not natively support IMAP or SMTP, or support POP3 at all.  I have zero interest in web only based email because it indicates that the providers is being disingenuous about privacy at best:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Communications_Privacy_Act

Email that is stored on a third party's server for more than 180 days is considered by the law to be abandoned. All that is required to obtain the content of the emails by a law enforcement agency is a written statement certifying that the information is relevant to an investigation, without judicial review.
 

Offline madires

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Re: Email alternative to Gmail ?
« Reply #80 on: March 22, 2021, 08:36:30 pm »
VM's cost 10's/month, shared hosting costs 10's/year.

FYI: You can rent a VM with 2 GB RAM, 20 GB disk space, 10 TB traffic, one fixed IPv4 address and a fixed IPv6 /64 for less than EUR 3 per month (located in a German data center).
 

Offline ve7xen

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Re: Email alternative to Gmail ?
« Reply #81 on: March 22, 2021, 08:37:23 pm »


Not sure it's worth the trouble though, when competent e-mail hosting is relatively inexpensive (around the same cost as that VM), and even hosted storage is cheap.



VM's cost 10's/month, shared hosting costs 10's/year. You get what you pay for. VM: dedicated IP address + GB's of RAM + CPU + GB's space just for the OS. Hosting: no dedicated IP address, you will only use 100's MB of RAM and that is shared with other users, the CPU is shared with other users so you are paying for a fraction of a CPU, you are sharing the cost of the OSes disk space with dozens of other users so are only paying for the space you use for your actual files.

I'm not a fan of cheap shared 'web hosting', and wouldn't recommend it for someone just after reliable e-mail service, as I wouldn't recommend running your own either. If one of the hundreds of other customers on the server can put Wordpress on it, and then immediately get exploited because Wordpress is trash, you'll feel the fallout. These services also tend to have no redundancy, regular backups, or high availability for their mail services, which tend to be run on the same single-shared-server as the web stuff. Who knows about their security or privacy practices or anything else. Some companies do this well, but most don't, and it's hard to tell the difference for someone not already capable of deciding how to host their mail.

Dedicated mail hosting services like FastMail, ProtonMail, Zoho, Google Workspace, Rackspace Email etc. tend to be around the $1-5/mo/user mark, and that's what I'd recommend for the average user that just wants reliable e-mail at their own domain and without advertising. A reasonable VM just to host mail is also ~$5/mo, of the same order.
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Online Simon

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Re: Email alternative to Gmail ?
« Reply #82 on: March 22, 2021, 08:40:47 pm »

Sorry, I lost track, what was that option?

You do it the normal way, like the vast majority of people do for a bit of hosting, just get a shared hosting account, they are cheap and do all you want in terms of standard hosting. I have outlined above the differences in price between a hosted virtual machine and a shared hosting account, a DIY setup being even more costly than a VM possibly unless you have some niche need like hundreds of GB of online storage.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: Email alternative to Gmail ?
« Reply #83 on: March 22, 2021, 08:43:44 pm »
Protonmail is used by many journalists. Anything else is better. Plus they dont mine your email for data which becomes their property. . Welcome to the new Digital Apocalypse.  Thats how the Internet companies "work" now. Extortion. They should all be broken up.

Protonmail's client support is limited since it does not natively support IMAP or SMTP, or support POP3 at all.  I have zero interest in web only based email because it indicates that the providers is being disingenuous about privacy at best:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Communications_Privacy_Act

Email that is stored on a third party's server for more than 180 days is considered by the law to be abandoned. All that is required to obtain the content of the emails by a law enforcement agency is a written statement certifying that the information is relevant to an investigation, without judicial review.

Protonmail is not based in the US, that does not apply.
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Email alternative to Gmail ?
« Reply #84 on: March 22, 2021, 08:44:56 pm »
Protonmail's client support is limited since it does not natively support IMAP or SMTP, or support POP3 at all.  I have zero interest in web only based email because it indicates that the providers is being disingenuous about privacy at best:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Communications_Privacy_Act

Email that is stored on a third party's server for more than 180 days is considered by the law to be abandoned. All that is required to obtain the content of the emails by a law enforcement agency is a written statement certifying that the information is relevant to an investigation, without judicial review.

Protonmail is not based in the US, that does not apply.

Ah, well lack of mail client support still applies.  I have no interest in web base email.
 

Online grumpydoc

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Re: Email alternative to Gmail ?
« Reply #85 on: March 22, 2021, 08:46:41 pm »
You do it the normal way, like the vast majority of people do for a bit of hosting, just get a shared hosting account, they are cheap and do all you want in terms of standard hosting. I have outlined above the differences in price between a hosted virtual machine and a shared hosting account, a DIY setup being even more costly than a VM possibly unless you have some niche need like hundreds of GB of online storage.
Sure, if that does what you want - I have no problem with that (I'd dispute "normal" though - "normal" is gmail these days).

However as a (re)seller of such services you're not exactly neutral in this discussion are you?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2021, 08:55:31 pm by grumpydoc »
 

Online Simon

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Re: Email alternative to Gmail ?
« Reply #86 on: March 22, 2021, 08:49:51 pm »


I'm not a fan of cheap shared 'web hosting', and wouldn't recommend it for someone just after reliable e-mail service, as I wouldn't recommend running your own either. If one of the hundreds of other customers on the server can put Wordpress on it, and then immediately get exploited because Wordpress is trash, you'll feel the fallout. These services also tend to have no redundancy, regular backups, or high availability for their mail services, which tend to be run on the same single-shared-server as the web stuff. Who knows about their security or privacy practices or anything else. Some companies do this well, but most don't, and it's hard to tell the difference for someone not already capable of deciding how to host their mail.

Dedicated mail hosting services like FastMail, ProtonMail, Zoho, Google Workspace, Rackspace Email etc. tend to be around the $1-5/mo/user mark, and that's what I'd recommend for the average user that just wants reliable e-mail at their own domain and without advertising. A reasonable VM just to host mail is also ~$5/mo, of the same order.

Yes dedicated email hosting will be cheaper. With shared hosting it's easy to see who knows their stuff. If they have limits in place on what resource you can use then as those limits apply to other customers as well as you then other customers cannot swamp the server. In terms of security they are getting good these days, my hoster will just shut down an account as soon as it's an issue, they actively scan accounts seeking out the problem ones and locking them until the owner sorts it out. Wordpress not by default will auto update everything limiting the fucktards that can't be arsed to update their wordpress and buggy plugins.

Why do you say these services do not tend to have redundancy or backups? you insist on not reading don't you. My provider provides 31 backups at all times taken once per day. Recently this allowed a customer of mine to recover their site that stopped working because two different plugins upset each other. I also doubt that there is one physical server, they work in clusters, never have I suffered an outage. on a virtual machine you are even more at risk as on there are no backups, that's your problem, it's your machine, it's up to YOU to pay for multiple virtual machines to cluster for redundancy.

I don't know why you write them all off, I have had shit providers and good providers, they are not all the same.
 

Online grumpydoc

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Re: Email alternative to Gmail ?
« Reply #87 on: March 22, 2021, 08:55:06 pm »
I'd expect a VPS to be backed up, maybe cheap ones aren't - my old ionos one was.

Yeah, if it's a dedicated server it's down to you.
 

Offline madires

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Re: Email alternative to Gmail ?
« Reply #88 on: March 22, 2021, 08:56:27 pm »
on a virtual machine you are even more at risk as on there are no backups, that's your problem, it's your machine, it's up to YOU to pay for multiple virtual machines to cluster for redundancy.

Another misconception. You can have snapshots and backups for VMs.
 

Online Simon

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Re: Email alternative to Gmail ?
« Reply #89 on: March 22, 2021, 08:56:53 pm »
You do it the normal way, like the vast majority of people do for a bit of hosting, just get a shared hosting account, they are cheap and do all you want in terms of standard hosting. I have outlined above the differences in price between a hosted virtual machine and a shared hosting account, a DIY setup being even more costly than a VM possibly unless you have some niche need like hundreds of GB of online storage.
Sure, if that does what you want - I have no problem with that (I'd dispute "normal" though - "normal" is gmail these days).

However as a seller of such services you're not exactly neutral in this discussion are you?

Yea I am neutral, I have nothing to gain here. "normal" is that you have a domain and some emails and maybe a website, You get a third party to host your few GB worth of data, that is what most companies do. If you take that functionality and it's price and try to DIY replicate it at home you soon find out how much it actually costs, for what? a few GB of hosting? If you are running a download service and need TB of space then sure it's cheaper to run your own although I am sure that a provider can sort you out.

The first thing you gain using a company is that they will have offsite backups (mine does), how easy is that to replicate at home? having bought my one NAS box the only way I can protect from fire or theft is to setup a second backup at another house, now both properties need decent internet connections. Now I have to hope that whatever software came with the NAS to allow external access actually works or that is 2 IP's I am paying for and it goes on and on.
 

Online Simon

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Re: Email alternative to Gmail ?
« Reply #90 on: March 22, 2021, 09:01:09 pm »
on a virtual machine you are even more at risk as on there are no backups, that's your problem, it's your machine, it's up to YOU to pay for multiple virtual machines to cluster for redundancy.

Another misconception. You can have snapshots and backups for VMs.

Oh for goodness sake. Yea sure, and that will cost extra, so you decided that backups are not standard for shared hosting but on VM's you just get them :palm: YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. If you get a cheap service you will get no backups no matter what it is, if you get a decent one they will offer backups and for more money give you even more backups. With a VM you rent your resources and it's up to you, on shared hosting the provider will include you in whatever they do. You know bulk buying? when you get shared hosting you are buying into a bulk buying scheme. You don't get to have everything your way like on a WM but you are taken care of if you choose a decent provider. On a VM you are in charge of setting all of that up yourself or arranging a service outside of the basic VM with the provider.
 

Offline mansaxel

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Re: Email alternative to Gmail ?
« Reply #91 on: March 22, 2021, 09:09:07 pm »
For email, I have my own machine in a datacenter, where I rent space and buy IP connectivity / power / cooling. It is not cheap, but it is very clear who is responsible for what.  On top of that I've got my own domain names, hosted on my own distributed DNS servers, backed by my own storage, made resilient by additional VM's in other datacentres running metadata services and similar. At home, via a tunnel to my colo, I've got storage for various functions, and some other back end services. All important data is on RAID drives and backed up to another site via a professional backup service.

There is no substitute for doing things right.

Online Simon

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Re: Email alternative to Gmail ?
« Reply #92 on: March 22, 2021, 09:12:58 pm »
So how much space do your "emails" take up? It sounds like you are paying someone to do it and then doing it all yourself as well.
 

Offline ve7xen

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Re: Email alternative to Gmail ?
« Reply #93 on: March 22, 2021, 09:14:15 pm »
Yes dedicated email hosting will be cheaper. With shared hosting it's easy to see who knows their stuff. If they have limits in place on what resource you can use then as those limits apply to other customers as well as you then other customers cannot swamp the server. In terms of security they are getting good these days, my hoster will just shut down an account as soon as it's an issue, they actively scan accounts seeking out the problem ones and locking them until the owner sorts it out. Wordpress not by default will auto update everything limiting the fucktards that can't be arsed to update their wordpress and buggy plugins.

It's a fundamental risk of allowing arbitrary customer code from random customers to run on the same servers as you're hosting mail for other customers. You can try to limit resources, you can react, you can try to be proactive and scan for exploits, but you really can't solve this problem without completely sandboxing the users, and that means VMs or containers per user. Most shared web hosts don't do that, and when they do it tends to look more like Heroku or Google App Engine, not cPanel.

Why do you advocate for random unsanitized web code running on the same server hosting your mail, when you don't actually care about web hosting?

Quote
Why do you say these services do not tend to have redundancy or backups? you insist on not reading don't you. My provider provides 31 backups at all times taken once per day. Recently this allowed a customer of mine to recover their site that stopped working because two different plugins upset each other. I also doubt that there is one physical server, they work in clusters, never have I suffered an outage. on a virtual machine you are even more at risk as on there are no backups, that's your problem, it's your machine, it's up to YOU to pay for multiple virtual machines to cluster for redundancy.

The vast majority of shared web hosts throw cPanel on a bunch of servers and call it good. Each operates more or less independently. If that server fails, your mail is down until they fix it. They don't build a highly available mail architecture with multiple mail servers and distributed storage, your mail is hosted on the same single server as your web site. That single server *may* be hosted on a HA VM, but that still doesn't save you if it crashes, runs out of resources, has a major configuration error, etc. Nor does it guarantee availability during maintenance activities.

Not all shared web hosting works this way, but it is the vast majority, especially on the cheap end.

With regard to backups, on-host backups are common and generally pretty easy to access. It is usually completely opaque whether off-host or off-site backups are being performed, and at what frequency. Depends on the provider, but is difficult to verify and usually insufficient on cheap plans.

I'm not advocating for VMs, I'm advocating for buying the service you want- mail hosting - from a company dedicated to doing that, and only that, well. As opposed to one where mail is an afterthought/addon and that tries to meet the needs of hundreds of different web hosting customers at once, and all the random stuff they need on the server, and lets arbitrary customer code run on the same box hosting your mail.

Quote
I don't know why you write them all off, I have had shit providers and good providers, they are not all the same.

Unfortunately while I'm sure there are good shared hosting providers out there, there are lots that look practically identical, and the vast majority of them aren't great. From the outside it's hard to tell them apart, and since you are talking about $10/year hosting, most of it is on the crap side. Your host's cheapest plan seems to be $70/yr and seems to offer only 10GB of storage at that price. That is considerably more expensive than FastMail, and astronomically more expensive than Zoho or Rackspace.

If you care about reliable mail, just buy reliable mail. It's easy, costs the same, and you just don't have to think about it. Also easier for a layperson to manage.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2021, 09:20:51 pm by ve7xen »
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Online grumpydoc

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Re: Email alternative to Gmail ?
« Reply #94 on: March 22, 2021, 09:15:21 pm »
We're drifting off into an argument here which is probably not solving the OP's problem.

Simon - you are being very dogmatic about this - email hosting is going to be the right answer for a lot of people who have concerns about Gmail, but is not going to be right for everyone. There are alternatives - either another of the big email providers (if they don't have the same problem for you as Gmail does), a hosted email service, or even running your own email on a server that you control be that a VPS, dedicated server or home machine.

There are trade-offs involved in all of these solutions.

FWIW I agree that I wouldn't actually recommend that people run their own email servers. I have a good friend who is 100x a beter Unix sysadmin than I am and even he thinks it is too much hassle these days, it needs a good knowledge of the tools and of how things work and of how to keep it all secure - but it is perfectly valid to discuss it as a solution if we are talking about alternatives to one of the big "free" email platforms.

For me the marginal cost is slight - I went with my ISP because of their ethos (shift packets, be very good at it) - you are right but they are worth it to me, I have been running small email systems for various employers for 30+ years so was quite comfortable with doing my own, I had the VPS and subsequently dedicated server mainly as a web host so also using it as a 2nd MX host was a trivial addition.

Just because you do things a certain way doesn't make it right for everyone.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2021, 09:17:27 pm by grumpydoc »
 

Offline madires

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Re: Email alternative to Gmail ?
« Reply #95 on: March 22, 2021, 09:21:11 pm »
Another misconception. You can have snapshots and backups for VMs.

Oh for goodness sake. Yea sure, and that will cost extra, so you decided that backups are not standard for shared hosting but on VM's you just get them :palm:

Nope! I was just giving facts. I didn't say that snapshots or backups of VMs are for free or that shared hosting doesn't come with backups. That's what you've put in my mouth. :( BTW, email != shared hosting.

YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

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Online Simon

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Re: Email alternative to Gmail ?
« Reply #96 on: March 22, 2021, 09:40:43 pm »
i host a mix of websites and email, there are no email only accounts. To most people the email account is a consequence of having a website. As far as hosting goes these people have been the best I have ever had. I have a friend who runs a local community centre that wanted to migrate to me from another provider - hostpapa - oh my fucking god I have never seen such a bunch of assholes. Their server is so slow, it's awful, shared hosting all right, it's like having to share the same piece of loo paper with someone. I left heart internet when they were bought out by go daddy, there came the point where they moved our accounts around the servers so often that they were giving us the IP address for email access rather than have to wait the time for the DNS records to catch up and the service speed was awful.

i had some fun with LCN, I bought my first VM with them. In my opinion they set it up with a hard drive image copy of an old system, it came with PHP5....... when 7 was the done thing. It was a mess that i could never quite get right. I then moved to krystal where I had to run my own setup of the VM which meant that it was up to date and things were right but then I found that their shared hosting was much cheaper and that they are the best I ever had. Sure I would love to be on a VM still but it comes at a price that does not just give you all the stuff that you get on shared hosting. If you want them to run the VM for you they charge £60/m! but then they will be taking time to sort out your one little machine for you rather than do the same work on a machine/cluster that benefits hundreds of shared users.

I don't know about security and sandboxing accounts but I think that things are better than they used to be and what most people will tell you is based on bitter experience of the past and not what things have actually been over the last say 1 year.

Yes all I hear is that WP is the worse for security. Sure, firstly it's a well documented and published code and it's the same code running on millions of sites. As soon as hackers find one thing in the source code that applies to millions of sites. also plugins are a big problem. I use as few as I need and always warn my users about not having redundant plugins (some i have admin access to their WP site and do the updates or set auto update for them). I had all the accounts on my VM at LCN hacked except the 2 i was running as unlike my customers I was keeping my sites up to date. But now i see that wordpress has made many changes and improvements in the last couple of years, so if you are telling me about how unsafe it is then please tell me that as of the last 2 years you have tested your hypothesis. If it was that bad then no one would use it, sensible people keep up to date and don't install dodgy plugins and there are security enhancement plugins. These days a new setup of wordpress will autoupdate itself and the plugins you install as default. This i think is the biggest security hole. I refused to use one plugin on a site I was involved with because they had been warned about a security hole and ignored it. The plugin learnpress allowed a "student" user to elevate themselves to a "tutor" user and then admin. The company only fixed it when wordfence told them they were going public over a month after they tipped them off quietly. that is the risk of wordpress, plugins.
 

Online Simon

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Re: Email alternative to Gmail ?
« Reply #97 on: March 22, 2021, 09:45:49 pm »
We're drifting off into an argument here which is probably not solving the OP's problem.

Simon - you are being very dogmatic about this - email hosting is going to be the right answer for a lot of people who have concerns about Gmail, but is not going to be right for everyone. There are alternatives - either another of the big email providers (if they don't have the same problem for you as Gmail does), a hosted email service, or even running your own email on a server that you control be that a VPS, dedicated server or home machine.

There are trade-offs involved in all of these solutions.

FWIW I agree that I wouldn't actually recommend that people run their own email servers. I have a good friend who is 100x a beter Unix sysadmin than I am and even he thinks it is too much hassle these days, it needs a good knowledge of the tools and of how things work and of how to keep it all secure - but it is perfectly valid to discuss it as a solution if we are talking about alternatives to one of the big "free" email platforms.

For me the marginal cost is slight - I went with my ISP because of their ethos (shift packets, be very good at it) - you are right but they are worth it to me, I have been running small email systems for various employers for 30+ years so was quite comfortable with doing my own, I had the VPS and subsequently dedicated server mainly as a web host so also using it as a 2nd MX host was a trivial addition.

Just because you do things a certain way doesn't make it right for everyone.

No i am not the one being dogmatic. We got into "go screw yourself on gmail" or "set up a replica of the world wide web in your home". I always said that there are different options but to turn your house into a hosting bunker over one email address is a bit excessive. I also do not have a problem with gmail, that is the OP. The reason I do not use gmail except as a backup address and a few other things is that I never used it as my primary address in the first place. I have been hosting my own emails probably since before gmail was widely available. If i had come alonf later my gmail account may have been my email account in fact my gmail account is just my google account that was my youtube login......
 

Online Simon

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Re: Email alternative to Gmail ?
« Reply #98 on: March 22, 2021, 09:53:05 pm »
Another misconception. You can have snapshots and backups for VMs.

Oh for goodness sake. Yea sure, and that will cost extra, so you decided that backups are not standard for shared hosting but on VM's you just get them :palm:

Nope! I was just giving facts. I didn't say that snapshots or backups of VMs are for free or that shared hosting doesn't come with backups. That's what you've put in my mouth. :( BTW, email != shared hosting.

YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

Exactly!

I'm sorry but you made a lot of sweeping statements that are not true and now trying to say that it is otherwise. There are thousands of hosters out there, all offer all sorts of services with different combinations of features, usually the good ones cost more and the rest are just cutting different corners to get the price down and some offer slightly more specific services like email hosting only which is not guaranteed to be safer than normal hosting, it's just a way to get customers through the door by selling half the service for half the price but cheaper than the full service then sell you the other half when you want it. Emails I suspect are less resource hungry than websites so can be cheaper to run maybe on slower and cheaper hard drives. a few minutes of down time or overloaded server is not a big deal. Any mail provider will not baulk the moment it can't reach the recipients mail server, it will try later and only after 24 hours of no success will alert the sender. We just assume that emails are instant.
 

Offline mansaxel

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Re: Email alternative to Gmail ?
« Reply #99 on: March 23, 2021, 09:02:42 am »

i had some fun with LCN, I bought my first VM with them. In my opinion they set it up with a hard drive image copy of an old system, it came with PHP5....... when 7 was the done thing.

This gem  is very old but nevertheless still relevant.


Yes all I hear is that WP is the worse for security.

WordPress, being made from PHP, is forbidden on my computers.

It is actually that simple. I do not allow PHP. If I want something more complicated than a static site, I first evaluate if it can be done with a static + batch solution and fool people into believing it's all "web %d.%d" Like 8 out of 10 times, that is the case.

The rest I do in minimalistic Perl. (with more comments than code, so I actually can figure out WTH I was thinking.)


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