Author Topic: Hell freezes over...  (Read 46996 times)

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Online Nominal Animal

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Re: Hell freezes over...
« Reply #175 on: September 22, 2019, 04:17:21 pm »
If my employers admins had to do all that in addition to what they already do (mostly make work for themselves to justify their pay) we would have to double the IT admin department so the answer from my employer would be NO!
Doesn't that mean that your entire argument boils down to "you need to make it cheaper for me!"

Microsofts desktop near-monopoly for two decades means that most admins and desktop software developers have a Microsoft mindset.  (There is nothing sinister about that, it happens in every industry where there is one tool/device brand that has a clear majority.)

It is harder for those people to learn any other mindset, because they first have to unlearn things; and people who consider themselves "professionals" have a lot invested in their current mindset, and are naturally reluctant to go back to basics.  It is much easier to leave them be, and just teach completely new people.  (You can disagree if you like, but I have seen this in practice; it is a commonly observed fact, and not limited to IT tools.)  We can see this for example in how processor manufacturers are shifting away from providing their own compilers, and instead increasingly support GCC (and hopefully LLVM, although I am less certain of that); the high-cost "enterprise" stuff remains, but is stagnant compared to the open source development.

When organizations consider moving from e.g. Windows to Linux desktops, the counterpressure is from people who do not want to unlearn old ways and learn new tools.  From their perspective, it is a waste of their efforts, as they can already do the job.  Because of Android phones, typical office desktop users adapt rather quickly, but the support staff faces huge problems.  In fact, in many cases it would be more cost effective to just replace the entire support staff (up to and including the CTO), but for various reasons, that is usually not feasible.

A practical intermediate step is moving from desktop applications to web-based ones, run on either cloud services, or on local server hardware.  This allows a softer transition for both users and support, but as of 2019, the number of software products is still small; it is more suited for large organizations that provide the majority of their own tools anyway (usually outsourcing their development).  For board design, I particularly like EasyEda as an example of this.

The only really helpful suggestion I can make, is to try and stop looking at the entire Microsoft/Windows-centric software ecosystem as the way to do software business, and realize that there are other ways things can work, and work even better.  Do not let Windows be your only tool, or the metric to which you compare everything else.  You will find that there are better opportunities (healthier competition, ecosystem not controlled by a single vendor, and so on) and better models out there, even though their market caps are still much smaller than the Windows ecosystem's.  Things change.  There is no particular hurry, though; I suspect it takes a full generation for any change to really take hold.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Hell freezes over...
« Reply #176 on: September 22, 2019, 04:39:01 pm »
Well you better tell siemens to get solid ehge running on linux. The problem is that the boat has sailed and most people have already bet on windows. Small businesses can be more flexible. people using open source are more likely to be able to switch, for example KiCad. If you do 3D CAD as a business you won't be on linux any time soon.

i really hope things change but I'm not holding my hopes out. Monopolies generally don't serve customers
 

Online Nominal Animal

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Re: Hell freezes over...
« Reply #177 on: September 22, 2019, 04:41:52 pm »
Maybe the Siemens developers could ask help from Blender developers?
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Hell freezes over...
« Reply #178 on: September 22, 2019, 04:48:59 pm »
Maybe the Siemens developers could ask help from Blender developers?

would it make them richer? They have already demonstrated that they are a worthless bunch of gas bags coming out with "new" versions of the softawre every 6 months with no real changes. This is to FORCE you to keep buying upgrades or be signed up to their subscription gravy train becasue if you modify a file with a later version of solid edge you cannot open it on even the previous version. At the moment they are buying people out instead of coming up with their own stuff.
 

Online Nominal Animal

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Re: Hell freezes over...
« Reply #179 on: September 22, 2019, 06:46:41 pm »
I feel your frustration, Simon, but I was just pointing out that if a company chooses to sell Linux software or not, it is their choice; there are no technical barriers stopping them, as evidenced by much more complicated and powerful existing software packages.

Granted, Blender Foundation is doing pretty well (as of now, taking in about 74k€/month), but Blender itself is top of the line tech, too.

Now, whether it makes business sense or not for any particular company to sell Linux software, I'm not the right person to say.
If someone is interested in how to minimize maintenance costs and maximize portability for FOSS or mixed-model Linux software, there I can definitely help and show what can/needs to be done; I am just not the right person to do the cost analysis and profitability projections needed to say in any particular case whether it is a good business decision or not.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Hell freezes over...
« Reply #180 on: September 22, 2019, 07:05:39 pm »
Basically it's the 80/20 rule with business. Aim to keep 80% of your customers happy and expect 20% to have issues. I'm sure 99.9999% of businesses use Windows. This is my point. There is no real incentive for a change and it will not be happily supported by companies currently supplying windows programs and now just lying back and taking gravy train fees for essentially keeping up with windows compotibility and coding in the extra function every 6 months to justify the upgrade.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Hell freezes over...
« Reply #181 on: September 22, 2019, 07:17:05 pm »
Yeah we have 20,000 seats. About 100 macs. The rest windows. It's a windows sausagefest.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Hell freezes over...
« Reply #182 on: September 22, 2019, 08:13:22 pm »
Basically it's the 80/20 rule with business. Aim to keep 80% of your customers happy and expect 20% to have issues. I'm sure 99.9999% of businesses use Windows. This is my point.
But your point is wrong. This has been explained to you many times already. Linux is big in software and electronics engineering.
Your complaints about gravy trains is also completely besides the point. These are just complaints about very specific vendors and don't even remotely have anything to do with the topic: Microsoft moving towards Linux.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline DimitriP

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Re: Hell freezes over...
« Reply #183 on: September 22, 2019, 08:21:07 pm »
Quote
Don't worry about it, any decent admin can sort out OS library problems on any Linux distro or commercial linux product.
:clap:
   If three 100  Ohm resistors are connected in parallel, and in series with a 200 Ohm resistor, how many resistors do you have? 
 

Offline olkipukki

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Re: Hell freezes over...
« Reply #184 on: September 22, 2019, 08:29:15 pm »
Well you better tell siemens to get solid ehge running on linux.
If you really want to run SolidEdge under Linux, there is Siemens NX (that originated on Unix), so they will happy meet you with open arms and sell 10-15K "basic" (+20% maintenance). I doubt that Siemens will translate SolidEdge (that started on Windows) to Linux world, actually many features taken from NX to SolidEdge.


 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Hell freezes over...
« Reply #185 on: September 22, 2019, 08:36:01 pm »
I suggest to look at a price list of Cadence and the type of companies that use that software. Then look and see that the only platform Cadence supports for all products is RHEL (=Redhat Enterprise Linux). Now try to convince me that companies spending 6 digit figures on software won't demand a certain level of support but users of Solidworks (which costs a fraction in comparison) do? IOW: you are plain wrong in stating that you can't get a properly supported Linux environment to work on. There is more than Windows out there and you have to ask yourself why Cadence relies on Linux instead of porting their applications to Windows.
I never stated that you can't get a supported Linux environment. I stated companies want top to bottom support which includes OS, drivers, hardware and CAD applications. They also tend to want something somewhat universal for various practical reasons instead of a fragmented landscape. That was a response to your claim the engineering world is going Linux. At this point I suspect you're just kicking up dust to distract and divert because the reality of the market doesn't suit your narrative. Again, most people don't give a shit about rosy ideals and just need to get shit done and their asses covered. The fragmentated Linux landscape as it stands has severe issues providing that. We can all wish it to be different but that doesn't change things.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Hell freezes over...
« Reply #186 on: September 22, 2019, 09:05:00 pm »
Basically it's the 80/20 rule with business. Aim to keep 80% of your customers happy and expect 20% to have issues. I'm sure 99.9999% of businesses use Windows. This is my point.
But your point is wrong. This has been explained to you many times already. Linux is big in software and electronics engineering.
Your complaints about gravy trains is also completely besides the point. These are just complaints about very specific vendors and don't even remotely have anything to do with the topic: Microsoft moving towards Linux.

Ah yes i remember you. Your the one that moves goal posts when he does not want to answer the question.

what point? i have made several.

As for the topic you know very well that that was abandoned on the first page. Unless of course you have new information to share on what M$ are proposing.

So you know what the user base in electronics engineering on Linux is? Tell us, what percentage of seats are there on linux versus windows?
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Hell freezes over...
« Reply #187 on: September 22, 2019, 09:08:07 pm »
Well you better tell siemens to get solid ehge running on linux.
If you really want to run SolidEdge under Linux, there is Siemens NX (that originated on Unix), so they will happy meet you with open arms and sell 10-15K "basic" (+20% maintenance). I doubt that Siemens will translate SolidEdge (that started on Windows) to Linux world, actually many features taken from NX to SolidEdge.




Yes I am aware of NX, a collegue has worked on it and tells me it's great albeit as you say expensive. NX is to SE what AD is to CS. But SE ws made for the budget market as a competitor to solid works so i would not be surprised that they have kept it windows only and they treat it as a side project given the way they support it and the bugs.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Hell freezes over...
« Reply #188 on: September 22, 2019, 09:32:20 pm »
But your point is wrong. This has been explained to you many times already. Linux is big in software and electronics engineering.
Your complaints about gravy trains is also completely besides the point. These are just complaints about very specific vendors and don't even remotely have anything to do with the topic: Microsoft moving towards Linux.
You've claimed this a few times but never backed it up.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Hell freezes over...
« Reply #189 on: September 22, 2019, 09:34:34 pm »
But your point is wrong. This has been explained to you many times already. Linux is big in software and electronics engineering.
Your complaints about gravy trains is also completely besides the point. These are just complaints about very specific vendors and don't even remotely have anything to do with the topic: Microsoft moving towards Linux.
You've claimed this a few times but never backed it up.

Indeed. Also Microsoft moving to Linux is because they want to sell Azure so this just gives them more market share to rent out.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Hell freezes over...
« Reply #190 on: September 23, 2019, 09:48:05 am »
Basically it's the 80/20 rule with business. Aim to keep 80% of your customers happy and expect 20% to have issues. I'm sure 99.9999% of businesses use Windows. This is my point.
But your point is wrong. This has been explained to you many times already. Linux is big in software and electronics engineering.
Your complaints about gravy trains is also completely besides the point. These are just complaints about very specific vendors and don't even remotely have anything to do with the topic: Microsoft moving towards Linux.

Ah yes i remember you. Your the one that moves goal posts when he does not want to answer the question.

what point? i have made several.

As for the topic you know very well that that was abandoned on the first page. Unless of course you have new information to share on what M$ are proposing.

So you know what the user base in electronics engineering on Linux is? Tell us, what percentage of seats are there on linux versus windows?
FFS! The poll showing the exact numbers is somewhere on this forum!
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Hell freezes over...
« Reply #191 on: September 23, 2019, 09:49:47 am »
I'm sorry. I didn't know I was supposed to know every topic on the forum.
 
The following users thanked this post: Halcyon, bd139

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Hell freezes over...
« Reply #192 on: September 23, 2019, 10:01:26 am »
Reel it in guys or we're locking this. The topic started off great, but now some of you are just bitching at each other. This isn't a pissing contest.

Either be a geek or take it somewhere else.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Hell freezes over...
« Reply #193 on: September 23, 2019, 11:30:40 am »
FFS! The poll showing the exact numbers is somewhere on this forum!
A link should be no trouble at all. That way we can discuss the numbers as few of us have seen them before.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Hell freezes over...
« Reply #194 on: September 23, 2019, 03:41:31 pm »
Reel it in guys or we're locking this. The topic started off great, but now some of you are just bitching at each other. This isn't a pissing contest.

Either be a geek or take it somewhere else.
Have you been here before?  ;D
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Hell freezes over...
« Reply #195 on: September 23, 2019, 08:33:41 pm »
Reel it in guys or we're locking this. The topic started off great, but now some of you are just bitching at each other. This isn't a pissing contest.

Either be a geek or take it somewhere else.
Have you been here before?  ;D

This is a pissing contest? ;-)
 

Online Nominal Animal

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Re: Hell freezes over...
« Reply #196 on: September 23, 2019, 10:30:42 pm »
No!  Don't pee on computers, they short out.  And it is horrible, horrible I tell you, for the poor technician who is tasked to examine what happened, no matter what the OS is used.

The only thing worse that comes to mind is when new mothers change the baby diapers on their laptops, and ... semi-liquid .. stuff .. leaks into the crevices in the keyboard.

Just because it may look like mustard, don't assume it is, and taste it to see if it is Dijon or the cheap kind.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Hell freezes over...
« Reply #197 on: September 23, 2019, 10:53:24 pm »
No!  Don't pee on computers, they short out.  And it is horrible, horrible I tell you, for the poor technician who is tasked to examine what happened, no matter what the OS is used.

The only thing worse that comes to mind is when new mothers change the baby diapers on their laptops, and ... semi-liquid .. stuff .. leaks into the crevices in the keyboard.

Just because it may look like mustard, don't assume it is, and taste it to see if it is Dijon or the cheap kind.

Slightly off-topic but it reminds me of when I worked at a computer repair shop as a teenager. We found all sorts of things inside computers. One time we found a dead mouse, another time there was a small snake which made its way into the PSU. If you ever work on someone else's laptop or computer, always wear gloves!
 

Offline bsfeechannel

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Re: Hell freezes over...
« Reply #198 on: September 23, 2019, 10:57:15 pm »
FFS! The poll showing the exact numbers is somewhere on this forum!
A link should be no trouble at all. That way we can discuss the numbers as few of us have seen them before.

Maybe he's referring to this.


 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Hell freezes over...
« Reply #199 on: September 23, 2019, 11:48:55 pm »
That one too but there has been a poll on this forum showing (roughly) Linux had a 25% share for primary OS and 25% of the people choose Windows-only. I have no idea where it ended up with the recent forum topic shuffle.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 


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