USB 3 and old folk

[PerranOak]

So, I will finally buy a new laptop after 13 years!

Two things confuse:

USB 3: is it completely compatible with the old USB on my 13 year old laptop? I mean both functionally and connector.

Do I need WINDOWS 10 Pro or will “Home” suffice? It’s going to be used primarily for MPLABX, Linux virtual machine and general programming: Python and maybe some Arduino stuff now and then.

Cheers.

[Yansi]

USB3 is pretty old shit and I think works even under windows XP, if you have XHCI mode working.

Do not worry, everything will work just fine.  Any USB3 device must be able to fall back to USB2 mode. (You may only get limited device performance, or no performance at all, if USB2 bandwidth is not sufficient for device operation - as may be the case of some HD video grabbers, etc.)

[LateLesley]

USB 3 type A connectors will be. Just watch that you do get a machine with type A, as there is a type C connector which will not be compatible with your old stuff.

https://www.tripplite.com/products/usb-connectivity-types-standards

[Yansi]

You can plug even the old shit into the USB-C. Just get a proper adaptor.

[MrMobodies]

Do I need WINDOWS 10 Pro or will “Home” suffice? It’s going to be used primarily for MPLABX, Linux virtual machine and general programming: Python and maybe some Arduino stuff now and then.

If you don't like the feature updates and "App store" stuff with things added/changed there is the LTSC Enterprise edition that I have been using with some alterations:
https://softkeys.uk/collections/windows/products/windows-10-home-product-key-32-64-bit-retail-version-2

I brought a few of those over the last year for £14.99 from that site and I haven't any problems so far with the keys.

[Whales]

Your questions

Windows 10: any version will meet your needs.  Pro just has some more corporate management features and bitlocker.  They're all ad-filled junk (except maybe LTSC?  Have not tried it yet).

USB: as other have said, as long as it's the traditional shape of USB port (referred to as 'type A') then anything you plug into it should work.  USB3 type A ports are backwards compatible with USB2 type A ports, and look almost identical externally.

IMHO avoid type C if you can (make sure to get a laptop with at least some proper type A ports).  It's a callback to the 90's where everything used the same DB9 serial cable but completely different protocols over it, so you only find out whether or not something is supported by your device by trying it (and by using the right type of magic cable that looks almost identical to the others from the outside).  There are even situations where you have to unplug the connector, turn it around and plug it back in again (it's reversible) for things to work (some DP modes IIRC).

You can buy dongles that convert type C ports into type A, which you then carry around with your laptop.  Dongle Life (TM).

A few other bits of advice

Make sure you're buying a laptop that uses a removable disk, whether it be an M.2 stick or a traditional SATA connector.  A lot of laptops now come soldered-down MMC flash that cannot be upgraded (without research, prayer & reflow).  When this flash dies the laptop becomes a brick.  Lookup teardown photos of your model to find out if you're not sure.

Sadly less and less laptops have replaceable RAM these days, it's also often soldered in.  Something to be aware of.  Does not typically die, but can be annoying later on.

Touchscreens are more expensive than standard screens if/when you break the LCD.  My laptop is a traditional screen with bezel that I can disassemble and replace for less than 100AUD, but touchscreens tend to be glued laminates.

EDIT: Don't waste your money on anti-virus products.  Win10's in-built Windows Defender (enabled by default) has made them obsolete for home users.

If the laptop comes pre-installed with lots of junk by the manufacturer, then either re-install Win10 or use a tool like BCU.  Installing Win10 is pretty fast BUT you then have to wait ages afterwards for windows update to churn away in the background (often requiring reboots).

During initial win10 setup DO NOT CONNECT TO THE INTERNET.  If you do then it will force you to create a Microsoft account.  You literally have to hit "I don't have internet" a few times to convince the first time setup wizard to let you use a traditional local windows account instead.  They have become really heavy handed with this in the past few releases.   Connect yourself after it's all done (and you may then get nagged a second time, but you can tell it to bugger off).

On that note: you can say no to everything checkbox/slider in the first time setup wizard (and later nagging prompts).  It's all very cleverly worded data collection with little to no practical value for you in return.

[westfw]

Anything above USB2 runs the risk of "my cable doesn't have all the signals that this peripheral wants", just like in the bad old days with DB25, DE9, etc :-(  On the bright side, everything is supposed to revert to USB2; it just might not perform as well as expected.
I've never been clear on what "Pro" offers.  It may have more to do with how the system can be "administered" than with features that are visible to users.

[ejeffrey]

Anything above USB2 runs the risk of "my cable doesn't have all the signals that this peripheral wants", just like in the bad old days with DB25, DE9, etc :-(

This isn't too bad for old school USB3 with a type-A connector.  black = USB2 only, blue = USB3. Red is 10 gigabit if you care.  The 'B' side of the cable is also visibly different.  It is a much more annoying problem for type-C where there are many more options yet neither the cable nor the connectors have any indication of what options are supported.

[Berni]

USB3.0 is fully forwards and backwards compatible.

You can plug a USB 3.0 device into a USB 2.0 or older port and it will work. You can also use a USB cable designed for a USB 2.0 device and plug it into a USB 3.0 device as even tho the shape of the 3.0 connector is larger the 2.0 cable still fits in it and works. But you obviously get the degraded performance of the device being limited to USB 2.0 speeds.

Drivers are also not a problem, works fine with Win 7. You are going to have other issues if you try to install Win 7 on latest PC hardware (like not even seeing your boot drive), but they are issues that can be overcome with enough persistence and googling.

The USB-C connector however is NOT compatible with everything. The only thing guaranteed on USB-C is having a USB 2.0 bus. All other functionality is optional (Including USB3.0) so when plugging a USB-C device such as a hub/dock into a USB-C host such as a laptop it might not work. This is because the extra pins in USB-C are available to be used for USB3, Thunderbolt, DisplayPort, HDMI... etc so these only work if both the host and device support these pins being used for that. This is a huge fail for the otherwise beautifully standardized and compatible USB port. 

[james_s]

USB 3 type A connectors will be. Just watch that you do get a machine with type A, as there is a type C connector which will not be compatible with your old stuff.

https://www.tripplite.com/products/usb-connectivity-types-standards

Unless you buy a Mac, even that is not really an issue, virtually all other computers that have USB-C also have USB 3.0 as well, and as someone else stated, there are adapters to plug standard USB stuff into USB-C.

Personally I'm not a fan of USB-C, it tries to be everything to everyone and the result is a mess, with stuff that physically plugs in but doesn't always actually work due to various levels of support. It was a good idea on paper, but in practice it is just too complicated and the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. I own zero peripherals with USB-C on them, with my work laptop (Mac) I use adapters for absolutely everything I plug into it other than the included charger.

[MrMobodies]

Your questions

Windows 10: any version will meet your needs.  Pro just has some more corporate management features and bitlocker.  They're all ad-filled junk (except maybe LTSC?  Have not tried it yet).

I haven't come across any yet and I hope not.

I could not tolerate that behaviour when things are installed and removed.

See "Apps" with Classicshell attached screenshot.
Nothing else in there at the moment.

[Someone]

USB 3 type A connectors will be. Just watch that you do get a machine with type A, as there is a type C connector which will not be compatible with your old stuff.

Unless you buy a Mac, even that is not really an issue, virtually all other computers that have USB-C also have USB 3.0 as well, and as someone else stated, there are adapters to plug standard USB stuff into USB-C.

Personally I'm not a fan of USB-C, it tries to be everything to everyone and the result is a mess, with stuff that physically plugs in but doesn't always actually work due to various levels of support. It was a good idea on paper, but in practice it is just too complicated and the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. I own zero peripherals with USB-C on them, with my work laptop (Mac) I use adapters for absolutely everything I plug into it other than the included charger.

You're doing it wrong? Note that Mac are one of the platforms that does guarantee any USB-C port is USB3 or higher (you perhaps simply wanted to say the Macs only have USB-C and no USB-A ? then why not say that rather than the convoluted and wrong nonsense above). And macs have all the ports across the machine being symmetric/identical so there is no need to put power or monitors on specific ports (which has been a problem with other brands).

Its not that hard, USB-C has USB-2, then optionally it will add in USB-3 or USB-4 (with further optional alt modes. embedded on the same electrical standard), and optionally thunderbolt (again. with further optional alt modes. embedded on the same electrical standard).

The only time this makes any sort of confusion is when manufacturers don't differentiate the ports on the product, and some have different alt mode capabilities or thunderbolt. Every other case they just drop to the highest supported USB standard (which might be speed limited by the use of a cheap cable, but it still works).

For docks or monitors, just leave their high speed (expensive) cable plugged into them and its done.

[Bassman59]

USB 3 type A connectors will be. Just watch that you do get a machine with type A, as there is a type C connector which will not be compatible with your old stuff.

https://www.tripplite.com/products/usb-connectivity-types-standards

Unless you buy a Mac, even that is not really an issue, virtually all other computers that have USB-C also have USB 3.0 as well, and as someone else stated, there are adapters to plug standard USB stuff into USB-C.

All current desktop Macs have both Thunderbolt 3 (a superset of USB-C on the same type of connector) as well as USB 3 Type A ports.

[james_s]

USB 3 type A connectors will be. Just watch that you do get a machine with type A, as there is a type C connector which will not be compatible with your old stuff.

Unless you buy a Mac, even that is not really an issue, virtually all other computers that have USB-C also have USB 3.0 as well, and as someone else stated, there are adapters to plug standard USB stuff into USB-C.

Personally I'm not a fan of USB-C, it tries to be everything to everyone and the result is a mess, with stuff that physically plugs in but doesn't always actually work due to various levels of support. It was a good idea on paper, but in practice it is just too complicated and the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. I own zero peripherals with USB-C on them, with my work laptop (Mac) I use adapters for absolutely everything I plug into it other than the included charger.

You're doing it wrong? Note that Mac are one of the platforms that does guarantee any USB-C port is USB3 or higher (you perhaps simply wanted to say the Macs only have USB-C and no USB-A ? then why not say that rather than the convoluted and wrong nonsense above). And macs have all the ports across the machine being symmetric/identical so there is no need to put power or monitors on specific ports (which has been a problem with other brands).

Its not that hard, USB-C has USB-2, then optionally it will add in USB-3 or USB-4 (with further optional alt modes. embedded on the same electrical standard), and optionally thunderbolt (again. with further optional alt modes. embedded on the same electrical standard).

The only time this makes any sort of confusion is when manufacturers don't differentiate the ports on the product, and some have different alt mode capabilities or thunderbolt. Every other case they just drop to the highest supported USB standard (which might be speed limited by the use of a cheap cable, but it still works).

For docks or monitors, just leave their high speed (expensive) cable plugged into them and its done.

"You're doing it wrong" is such a typical Apple/fanboi response. Blame the customer, the machine is absolutely perfect, the company is run by gods. 

As for the rest being "nonsense" I don't think you understand what I said. I have a 2017 Macbook Pro right here in front of me, it has no ports on it besides USB-C, I need adapters for absolutely every peripheral I have, that is simply an objective fact. I have no doubt that the USB-C ports on this particular laptop are properly engineered and fully capable but that does not change another fact, that the USB-C ports on many other devices are NOT fully capable despite having the same connector. I generally like this machine, but it is not without faults. The touchbar is a gimmick that after living with it for 3 years I am firmly in the camp of preferring physical keys, the keyboard is garbage, it's noisy and very small bits of debris cause it to malfunction, and the complete lack of any ports other than USB-C is something that annoys me every time I go to plug something into it. Yes the USB-C ports are electrically compatible with other formats but I need adapters for all of it. I would much prefer to just have USB-3 ports, an ethernet port and a  displayport like my Lenovo has. Putting power and other signals on separate, distinct connectors is not a "problem", it's a feature.

USB-C is a solution looking for a problem, the most common "problem" I hear about is people who cannot figure out how to plug a simple USB connector in the right way around. It is more complex, more expensive, requires expensive cables, and years after release it is still a complete mess. There are all sorts of devices that have partially implemented USB-C ports and it will stay that way because fully implementing the standard costs money and on budget devices that cost is significant. 

[james_s]

All current desktop Macs have both Thunderbolt 3 (a superset of USB-C on the same type of connector) as well as USB 3 Type A ports.

I don't have a desktop Mac, I don't know anyone who has one anymore, everyone has laptops. I should have said "Macbook" but I got lazy.

[Someone]

USB 3 type A connectors will be. Just watch that you do get a machine with type A, as there is a type C connector which will not be compatible with your old stuff.

Unless you buy a Mac, even that is not really an issue, virtually all other computers that have USB-C also have USB 3.0 as well, and as someone else stated, there are adapters to plug standard USB stuff into USB-C.

Personally I'm not a fan of USB-C, it tries to be everything to everyone and the result is a mess, with stuff that physically plugs in but doesn't always actually work due to various levels of support. It was a good idea on paper, but in practice it is just too complicated and the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. I own zero peripherals with USB-C on them, with my work laptop (Mac) I use adapters for absolutely everything I plug into it other than the included charger.

You're doing it wrong? Note that Mac are one of the platforms that does guarantee any USB-C port is USB3 or higher (you perhaps simply wanted to say the Macs only have USB-C and no USB-A ? then why not say that rather than the convoluted and wrong nonsense above). And macs have all the ports across the machine being symmetric/identical so there is no need to put power or monitors on specific ports (which has been a problem with other brands).

Its not that hard, USB-C has USB-2, then optionally it will add in USB-3 or USB-4 (with further optional alt modes. embedded on the same electrical standard), and optionally thunderbolt (again. with further optional alt modes. embedded on the same electrical standard).

The only time this makes any sort of confusion is when manufacturers don't differentiate the ports on the product, and some have different alt mode capabilities or thunderbolt. Every other case they just drop to the highest supported USB standard (which might be speed limited by the use of a cheap cable, but it still works).

For docks or monitors, just leave their high speed (expensive) cable plugged into them and its done.

"You're doing it wrong" is such a typical Apple/fanboi response. Blame the customer, the machine is absolutely perfect, the company is run by gods. 

As for the rest being "nonsense" I don't think you understand what I said. I have a 2017 Macbook Pro right here in front of me, it has no ports on it besides USB-C, I need adapters for absolutely every peripheral I have, that is simply an objective fact. I have no doubt that the USB-C ports on this particular laptop are properly engineered and fully capable but that does not change another fact, that the USB-C ports on many other devices are NOT fully capable despite having the same connector. I generally like this machine, but it is not without faults. The touchbar is a gimmick that after living with it for 3 years I am firmly in the camp of preferring physical keys, the keyboard is garbage, it's noisy and very small bits of debris cause it to malfunction, and the complete lack of any ports other than USB-C is something that annoys me every time I go to plug something into it. Yes the USB-C ports are electrically compatible with other formats but I need adapters for all of it. I would much prefer to just have USB-3 ports, an ethernet port and a  displayport like my Lenovo has. Putting power and other signals on separate, distinct connectors is not a "problem", it's a feature.

USB-C is a solution looking for a problem, the most common "problem" I hear about is people who cannot figure out how to plug a simple USB connector in the right way around. It is more complex, more expensive, requires expensive cables, and years after release it is still a complete mess. There are all sorts of devices that have partially implemented USB-C ports and it will stay that way because fully implementing the standard costs money and on budget devices that cost is significant.

You're still going off on your rant and failing to use the technical terms correctly, I'm fairly certain this is what you were intending to communicate:

"I don't like this design that has no legacy USB-A connectors" which is true of all laptop Macs, and few laptops from other brands.

Instead you introduced USB3 compatibility (which does have many nuances), but the Macs are actually some of the best on that side of things. Thats what the OPs question was about, is USB-3 backwards compatible? yes! Does it have some confusion? yes! Is it confusing on Macs? no.

Very few devices have captive USB cables/connection ("thumb" drives being the most common example), change those out for cables with USB-C at the other end (not expensive, $2-5 each) and the upgrade is done once, there is no need for "dongles" ongoing, and USB-A/B/C cabling isn't showing any price premium in the wholesale channels. Every conference venue and meeting room I go to defaults to USB-C as their video connection, its that widespread and well supported across all laptops, HDMI is relegated to the adaptor/dongle now.

So it appears like you have some axe to grind, and spew FUD rather than facts.

[SilverSolder]

[...]
So it appears like you have some axe to grind, and spew FUD rather than facts.

Consider someone older, who has perhaps 10 or 15 different computers in their home and lab, along with dozens of USB peripherals.  What we don't want, is some non-standard device coming into the "family" and being difficult to connect to everything else.  That is a barrier to USB-C right there.   

If you are buying your first PC or notebook and don't own any peripherals, I think USB-C is an acceptable solution, even though it is probably primarily designed to make the older stuff obsolete and start a new upgrade cycle (yes, I know, "there is no such thing as planned obsolescence"...  "there is no inflation"...  and I have a bridge for sale to the highest bidder!    ).

Apple sometimes fails by making things so friendly that they become obscure:  For example, my wife has owned an iPad for many years now...  but the difficulties in getting big video files off the iPad onto her PC is driving her crazy, and she keeps running out of space on the iPad... she tells me there is no easy way to see what you can delete / uninstall to improve the situation.  She says they seem to want to make her subscribe to various cloud services to make it work.  ...so, she is now asking for a "Windows" laptop, because "I never have any problems moving or deleting files on my PC".   This is despite the fact of how she loves the design, form factor and the beautiful screen of the iPad, and is appreciative of the Apple store's excellent customer service.

[Someone]

[...]
So it appears like you have some axe to grind, and spew FUD rather than facts.

Consider someone older, who has perhaps 10 or 15 different computers in their home and lab, along with dozens of USB peripherals.  What we don't want, is some non-standard device coming into the "family" and being difficult to connect to everything else.  That is a barrier to USB-C right there.

Sure, but that is very different to the more typical users, and the OP who stated 1 computer, looking at replacement. You can come up with all sorts of corner cases to support any position, but what has been posted above is simply factually wrong as people mixup/confuse the terminology (and goes off into peoples pet rants etc). Retrocomputing enthusiasts and embedded developers bemoaned the disappearance of physical serial ports, at some point you get over it or just run a hilariously out of date setup (engineering/scientific labs kept 3.5" floppies in use way past their useby date!).

USB-C can be really confusing when a computer has multiple ports that have different capabilities but the same connector. Thats exactly the problem that the Macs have eliminated on their machines, but still remains on many other brands/models. There are some good examples from HP (and probably others) where they make it really clear by having one/two thunderbolt ports on USB-C and differentiate other ports with USB-A connectors which is probably the middle ground that suits most people.

Apple sometimes fails by making things so friendly that they become obscure:  For example, my wife has owned an iPad for many years now...  but the difficulties in getting big video files off the iPad onto her PC is driving her crazy, and she keeps running out of space on the iPad... she tells me there is no easy way to see what you can delete / uninstall to improve the situation.  She says they seem to want to make her subscribe to various cloud services to make it work.  ...so, she is now asking for a "Windows" laptop, because "I never have any problems moving or deleting files on my PC".   This is despite the fact of how she loves the design, form factor and the beautiful screen of the iPad, and is appreciative of the Apple store's excellent customer service.

Try any recent windows or Mac OS and its the same thing, pretending like storage is not file based and pushing you to store things in (possibly application specific) containers that aren't obvious where they are or what format the files are in. The iPhone/iPad model of computing pushed that concept and it has stuck as the new default.

P.S. record video with the built in camera function (not a 3rd party app), then the iWhatever device mounts like any other USB camera and is accessible/browsable with a normal looking file system:
https://support.apple.com/en-au/guide/image-capture/imgcp1003/mac
Ignore all the guides which try and push you to import it to one of those "modern" apps or via the cloud which pretends like none of this infrastructure exists and hides the filesystem. Pretty much any consumer camera shows up identically, the wonders of sticking with underlying standards. But there seems to be some chatter about people having issues with that method for "large files" on iWhatever devices, no technical details just annoyance.

[SilverSolder]

I believe we are having a violent agreement about most of the things you said here! 

[...]
P.S. record video with the built in camera function (not a 3rd party app), then the iWhatever device mounts like any other USB camera and is accessible/browsable with a normal looking file system:
https://support.apple.com/en-au/guide/image-capture/imgcp1003/mac
[...]

She does record with the built-in iPad camera function.  It is not clear to me how the Image Capture application helps transferring video files to a Windows PC -  does the application make the iPad appear like a USB mass storage device or something like that?

[james_s]

"I don't like this design that has no legacy USB-A connectors" which is true of all laptop Macs, and few laptops from other brands.

The first part yes, that is exactly what I was trying to say, was it not completely obvious? I didn't think I would have to break it down so explicitly. The second part is nonsense, I have a 1.5 year old Asus laptop right next to me that belonged to my dad, it has (in addition to a USB-C port that cannot be used to power the machine) a full complement of ports. I have my Lenovo laptop that I'm typing this on right now, full complement of ports, no USB-C. The mini PC that runs my Plex server has USB-C (which doesn't work with USB-C to HDMI, and doesn't work to power the machine), along with a full complement of ports. My newest Raspberry Pi has USB-C but it's *only* usable for powering the machine. The Macbook Pro, second oldest machine out of all of these has USB-C, only, nothing else. I have about a dozen other mostly older computers and similar devices in the house that don't have USB-C.

Now I did go on a bit of a rant that was not really intended, but my position comes from life experience, not made up FUD. I've been living with this MBP for almost 3 years and I have to use dongles to connect absolutely everything except for the charger, this is not some hypothetical edge case, this is my actual day to day life, I have a pencil pouch full of USB-C-to-whatever dongles that I keep in my backpack and so do most of my colleagues. Sure, I could go out and buy all new stuff, but I have dozens of thumb drives, probably >100 cables, numerous mice, trackpads, keyboards, barcode scanner, cameras, etc, etc, many of which do have captive cables, and other stuff that would require all new cables and at that point I'd need separate sets of cables for my machines that have USB-C and those that don't. You seem to be extremely tunnel-visioned looking at one specific use case and assuming that everyone else is in the same position as you. They are not.

Bottom line is USB-C brings nothing to the table that I value, and it brings a bunch of hassle, none insurmountable but it adds up, and I just really strongly dislike computers that have ONE port and nothing else, especially when it is done to make the thing thinner than it needs to be, when every single other computer that I own has all sorts of different types of port, each purpose designed for a specific task. Maybe you can see why that ONE machine is annoying to me, like when you've got a house full of devices that use AA batteries and then that one stupid thing that uses C batteries or something that nothing else you own uses. 

[Someone]

I believe we are having a violent agreement about most of the things you said here! 

[...]
P.S. record video with the built in camera function (not a 3rd party app), then the iWhatever device mounts like any other USB camera and is accessible/browsable with a normal looking file system:
https://support.apple.com/en-au/guide/image-capture/imgcp1003/mac
[...]

She does record with the built-in iPad camera function.  It is not clear to me how the Image Capture application helps transferring video files to a Windows PC -  does the application make the iPad appear like a USB mass storage device or something like that?

Oh yes, we are agreeing! But try to keep it balanced and neutral rather than jumping for gotchas/fails.

The handshake with the device requesting the files is a little more complex, to make things "compatible" there is an option to change how they are served up. Depending on what software you try to look at the files with it will show up differently, but there should be a USB mass storage mount if you go looking (and haven't had some other software turn it off/hide it). It appears as a filesystem with nice files, but they can get switched up (dynamically) underneath:
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/250927739
Change the setting to just give me the damn files, and someone else complains about that, lol. Cant please everyone, the options are too complex for most users to fully understand/explore, yet not complex enough to support every possible workflow.

[Someone]

"I don't like this design that has no legacy USB-A connectors" which is true of all laptop Macs, and few laptops from other brands.

The first part yes, that is exactly what I was trying to say, was it not completely obvious?

No it was not obvious and clearly wrong. I politely left the door open for you to clarify but instead you go off on more rant.... and now more and more.

I'd need separate sets of cables for my machines that have USB-C and those that don't

So like others above you're in a mixed environment and want to share peripherals between different computers interchangeably. Welcome to the pain of a transition. Our workplace has a mixture of docks/hubs during this transition and expects to be USB-C exclusive within a year or so. Or just stick with all USB-A and don't get any of the benefits of power, protocol, and bandwidth improvements that are only available on USB-C. Like the users without USB-C here who can't use the newer monitors. A valid choice but putting your head in the sand. Like the people who kept insisting on VGA or DVI connections as the primary video output on their laptops when DisplayPort or HDMI was the more common standard.

The OP is single device, not going to have this "problem"

[SilverSolder]

Seems to me the smart solution is to have USB-C along with the traditional ports, then slowly dropping the old ports.

I have a Dell Optiplex here from the 2010s that still has a serial port!  Wonderful for Arduinos, old GPS units, etc. etc.

As an active computer user, it neither make sense to limit yourself to either only the "latest and greatest" nor "only serial and parallel, and DOS v3"! 

[NiHaoMike]

Theoretically, any USB 1.1 or 2.0 device should work with a USB 3.0 port, but in practice, I have found counterexamples. It doesn't happen often but do try plugging a USB 1.1 or 2.0 device into a 2.0 port if you're having problems with it.

[Bassman59]

All current desktop Macs have both Thunderbolt 3 (a superset of USB-C on the same type of connector) as well as USB 3 Type A ports.

I don't have a desktop Mac, I don't know anyone who has one anymore, everyone has laptops. I should have said "Macbook" but I got lazy.

I have that 2017 MacBook Pro, too -- I'm typing this response on that machine! -- and when I bought it, I also got a couple USB-C-to-USB-B (device-side) cables and USB-C-to-micro-USB-B (also device side), and that covers pretty much everything. I also bought a four-port hub (USB-C to four USB-A 3.0) which is handy for the same reason all USB hubs are handy.

It really is not as painful as everyone makes it seem!

I do think the keyboard sucks.

I have the iMac because I like having a proper desktop machine, with multiple monitors -- and the 5k display is seriously amazing -- and the various storage options. Plus it's the 10-core i9, quite a fast machine.

As for "I don't know anyone who has a desktop anymore," most people I know have both a desktop machine and a laptop. And the few who are laptop-only have a dock like the excellent CalDigit Thunderbolt 3 dock to give them all the ports they need when doing desk-bound work.

[SilverSolder]

[...] "I don't know anyone who has a desktop anymore," [...]

People who use desktops tend to be creative types that need big screens as well as big computing power.  Of course they tend to have laptops and smaller mobile devices too.

The computing food chain:

Alpha level - One or more Desktops (or bigger!) with multiple monitors and hardwired Ethernet
Beta level   - Small desktop, laptop, convertible tablet, etc. with wireless local network
Pond life     - Mobile device only (phone, pad) with Internet only

[james_s]

I do actually still own a desktop, but I have not booted it up in at least a year. The company I work for now is 100% laptops, nobody is issued a desktop as a company computer. Many people do dock laptops and use multiple monitors and various peripherals which covers the desktop use cases for them. Desktops have a lot of advantages, but for me I find that portability wins out and I end up living with the smaller display and crappy pointing device because I can sit on the sofa.

[Berni]

Yeah laptop vs desktop entirely depends on what the person needs.

Some might value the portability of a laptop while others might value the power of a desktop.

Its not like you need a powerful computer to do most tasks these days, so even laptops with a more pedestrian level of performance are perfectly fine for a lot of people. So these people might see very little reason to use a desktop, for them a desktop is the same as a laptop that is strapped to a desk.

On the other end are people who want lots of computing power but don't want to buy a $3000 laptop to get it, they want dual or triple large monitors, want a big full sized keyboard, good speakers etc..

I personally fall into the desktop category. I want as much computing power as i can get on the cheep, i like being able to upgrade my PC in partial steps as one component becomes obsolete or dies. The computer i have is actually a Pentium 4 machine that got upgraded so many times that there no original parts left anymore (Not even the case, since modern hardware makes a lot more heat) at this point it got to a i7 4790K with a GTX 1070. I like using my computer at my desk, i don't see the reason to move it around the house, i don't find using a laptop on the sofa or in bed comfortable (but have a seperate PC hooked up to the TV). I do still have a laptop for when i need to take a computer on the go, but since i use it so rarely its gotten a bit dated being a ancient Core 2 Duo with integrated graphics. For simple computing tasks in portable form i find a better and cheaper solution is a tablet.

[PerranOak]

There's another reason for a desktop.

You convince "people" that certain things can only be done on the desktop (for security or performance reasons, say) then you have a ready excuse to go away into a different room and get some P&Q (peace and quiet). 

[SilverSolder]

I do actually still own a desktop, but I have not booted it up in at least a year. The company I work for now is 100% laptops, nobody is issued a desktop as a company computer. Many people do dock laptops and use multiple monitors and various peripherals which covers the desktop use cases for them. Desktops have a lot of advantages, but for me I find that portability wins out and I end up living with the smaller display and crappy pointing device because I can sit on the sofa.

I often work with stuff that needs big monitors - the bigger, the better! - graphics, multi track sound editing, etc.  Our company only issues laptops as well, but I feed it into a monitor (and feed my keyboard/mouse into the laptop via a USB switch). 

My wife likes making health related videos and prefers using the desktop for video editing - a video editing app is also very "screen space intensive".  She is forever battling with the clammy death grip of Apple, trying to get material out of her iPad and into her PC for this reason! 

[SilverSolder]

Yeah laptop vs desktop entirely depends on what the person needs.

Some might value the portability of a laptop while others might value the power of a desktop.

Its not like you need a powerful computer to do most tasks these days, so even laptops with a more pedestrian level of performance are perfectly fine for a lot of people. So these people might see very little reason to use a desktop, for them a desktop is the same as a laptop that is strapped to a desk.

On the other end are people who want lots of computing power but don't want to buy a $3000 laptop to get it, they want dual or triple large monitors, want a big full sized keyboard, good speakers etc..

I personally fall into the desktop category. I want as much computing power as i can get on the cheep, i like being able to upgrade my PC in partial steps as one component becomes obsolete or dies. The computer i have is actually a Pentium 4 machine that got upgraded so many times that there no original parts left anymore (Not even the case, since modern hardware makes a lot more heat) at this point it got to a i7 4790K with a GTX 1070. I like using my computer at my desk, i don't see the reason to move it around the house, i don't find using a laptop on the sofa or in bed comfortable (but have a seperate PC hooked up to the TV). I do still have a laptop for when i need to take a computer on the go, but since i use it so rarely its gotten a bit dated being a ancient Core 2 Duo with integrated graphics. For simple computing tasks in portable form i find a better and cheaper solution is a tablet.

My favourite portable device at the moment is a little Lenovo Miix 2 8" tablet with a tiny little quad core Intel Atom, running Windows 8.1 -  small, light, fast, excellent screen, and Windows 8 is actually very good on a tablet!  Kind of like an iPad, except it allows you to do stuff! 

[james_s]

My favourite portable device at the moment is a little Lenovo Miix 2 8" tablet with a tiny little quad core Intel Atom, running Windows 8.1 -  small, light, fast, excellent screen, and Windows 8 is actually very good on a tablet!  Kind of like an iPad, except it allows you to do stuff! 

Windows 8 could have really been quite good as a tablet OS. Their mistake was trying to unify the experience of two entirely different platforms with largely entirely different use cases. The result was an awkward mess like a tablet glued to the back of a laptop. Windows 10 made some improvements on the desktop side while making the tablet side worse. What they should have done is make a tablet OS that was entirely separate from the desktop/laptop OS and given them a similar look and feel and designing them to work well together but not a one sized fits all compromise. The ability to run mobile apps on the desktop Windows could have been a worthwhile feature, but trying to relegate the Windows desktop and Win32 software to a "legacy" dusty corner was a serious blunder. I still remember the first time I saw Windows 8, it was on a desktop PC with a 27" 4k monitor and the default "apps" were all full screen! You couldn't even use the calculator in a window next to some other software    I couldn't believe what I was seeing, it's like it was designed by a group of people with extreme tunnel vision who had never seen someone use a computer before. I remember thinking maybe they should call it "Window" because you could only use one window at a time unless you found your way into the legacy desktop which they clearly were trying to shove off to the side.

[Berni]

Yeah Windows 8 was a good example how "One size fits all" does not work for some things.

They should have called it Windows 8 Mobile or something and gave that all of the newfangled touchscreen UI stuff. And they sort of did that with Windows RT, as it was basically metro only Win8 that ran on ARM but it was a market flop. It only ran the metro apps made for it and since it was new there ware no apps basically, so it could barely do anything. On the other hand x86 processors have progressed in efficiency to the point being low power enough for tablet use while still keeping enough performance to do the job, so people just rather got a x86 tablet that can run full on windows.

Its the typical Microsoft way of stubbornly forcing themselves into a market. Sometimes it works like the Xbox for example, but most other times it just results in a flop.

Yet they already had crossplatform Win32 apps working back in about 2003 where they put .Net compact framework on there WindowsMobile/WinCE devices. This could make the same exe file run on ARM, MIPS, PowerPC..etc mobile devices but also run on a regular WindowsXP desktop PC as long as you had .net framework installed. They just decided that these apps don't look fancy enough in comparison to the first iPhone so they threw it all into the trash and came up with Windows Phone 7 that was no longer capable of running these EXEs (There was a very big library of WinCE software out there btw) but featured the first implementation of the Metro interface that later came to Win 8. We all know how that went... it destroyed Nokia by the time they gave up on pushing Windows Phone OS.

At first it was probably Microsoft trying to copycat Apple, but now that so many people use mobile devices more than a PC means that a large part of the userbase will actually want Windows to work more like a tablet/phone since that is what they are familiar with. Meanwhile i am pulling my hair out how to set a static IP for my network card on Win10 because the new Win10 UI doesn't have a setting for that, so i have to trick it into showing the old Win7 setting window where i can actually set it.

[gmb42]

In an elevated PowerShell session use New-NetIPAddress, e.g.:

Code: [Select]

New-NetIPAddress -InterfaceIndex 12 -IPAddress 192.168.0.100 -PrefixLength 24 -DefaultGateway 192.168.0.1
This will disable DHCP on the interface if configured, as you would expect if configuring a static address.

Use Get-NetAdapter to locate the interface index.  If an address is already assigned you can either remove it first with Remove-IPAddress or just modify it with Set-NetIPAddress and you can retrieve assigned addresses with Get-NetIPAddress.

Sometimes, you can actually move on from older ways.  Just waiting for PKTS to chime in about how the Linux command line is better.

[Berni]

In an elevated PowerShell session use New-NetIPAddress, e.g.:

Code: [Select]

New-NetIPAddress -InterfaceIndex 12 -IPAddress 192.168.0.100 -PrefixLength 24 -DefaultGateway 192.168.0.1
This will disable DHCP on the interface if configured, as you would expect if configuring a static address.

Use Get-NetAdapter to locate the interface index.  If an address is already assigned you can either remove it first with Remove-IPAddress or just modify it with Set-NetIPAddress and you can retrieve assigned addresses with Get-NetIPAddress.

Sometimes, you can actually move on from older ways.  Just waiting for PKTS to chime in about how the Linux command line is better.

The result of that is that i then have to remember this command for the once or twice a year i need to set a IP on a machine. Also if you are doing this on someones machine with Home or Education or whatever castrated edition of windows, then it might not have PowerShell installed on it.

Compared to the process on Win7. I can get the correct window by simply right clicking the networking icon next to the clock and going into network adapters. I can click my way there faster than opening the shell and typing that out. But most importantly that way is intuitive to a experienced windows user. Someone who has done this 5 years ago will be able to vaguely enough remember what to do and get it done in a timely manner without resorting to googling it. This is the strength of a well designed GUI. A unfamiliar but reasonably bright user can fumble there way around the GUI and eventually figure out what to do without any outside help. The WinForms GUI language gives you a clear visual queue on what is a clickable option, what type of input a field takes, how to navigate to additional hidden portions of the UI.

I don't regularly use Linux for example. I can get my way around the command line with basic stuff but i also will not be able to set the IP of a network card from the command line without resorting to google. But i will be able to set up the IP trough the GUI on Linux despite having never seen that distributions particular GUI implementation.

But i was mostly using the "Changing your IP" as an example. I had plenty of cases where i had trouble doing a normally simple administrative task on Win10 because i first could not find the correct menu for it, then once i got to the correct menu i find out that the setting for what i want is completely missing from that menu. So i resort to randomly clicking around until i find a way to get the Win7 style menu pops up. Am i getting too old to understand modern UIs?

[SilverSolder]

[...] Am i getting too old to understand modern UIs?

No, you are not getting too old to understand.  Modern UIs are not designed with discoverability (affordance) in mind.  They are designed for n00b users to be able to do simple tasks without ever being confronted with anything that could be described as "complicated" (by a n00b).

The above statement doesn't mean I think Win 8.1 or Win 10 got everything wrong:   what they should have done, IMHO, is have a switchable "n00b mode" that experienced users can turn off...

Whenever I use Windows 10 or 8.1,  I am forever pecking around trying to find things - usually, I end up getting the job done, sometimes with the aid of a Google search (where invariably, millions of other people are asking the same question about "Where did they hide... X" !   

[james_s]

They should have called it Windows 8 Mobile or something and gave that all of the newfangled touchscreen UI stuff. And they sort of did that with Windows RT, as it was basically metro only Win8 that ran on ARM but it was a market flop. It only ran the metro apps made for it and since it was new there ware no apps basically, so it could barely do anything. On the other hand x86 processors have progressed in efficiency to the point being low power enough for tablet use while still keeping enough performance to do the job, so people just rather got a x86 tablet that can run full on windows.

It was a serious mistake to call something "Windows" that couldn't run most of the vast library of existing Windows software. Any idiot should have been able to see that coming, a non-technical user buys a "Windows" tablet, takes it home and then realizes that none of the software they own can run on it because even though the name says Windows, it's a different Windows. I'm no Apple fanboy but that is something Apple did right, they didn't call their iPad operating system "MacOS", they had the sense not to give the same name to two completely different operating systems that can't run the same software. "Windows" or "Mac" mean something, if someone buys Windows, they expect Windows software to work on it, and if they buy a Mac, they expect Mac software to work on it. You can't expect non-technical people to make a deeper distinction than that.

Almost nobody runs Windows because they love Microsoft and love the OS, they run it because it supports a vast library of software spanning decades. It's all about the software, and the most fantastic state of the art operating system in the world is going to flop if it can't run the software people want to use. Anyone remember the BeBox? Or NeXT? They were amazing machines, cutting edge, lots of new concepts, lots of things that went on to mainstream adoption later, but at the time they flopped because they were new systems, incompatible with most of the software that was available. It wasn't 1985 anymore, when there were loads of different incompatible systems vying for market dominance. The war was long over Wintel and Mac being the dominant players.

[newbrain]

Meanwhile i am pulling my hair out how to set a static IP for my network card on Win10 because the new Win10 UI doesn't have a setting for that, so i have to trick it into showing the old Win7 setting window where i can actually set it.

In the Network and Internet settings page, just click 'Properties' for the network adapter you want to set up and it's right there (20H2).

Even in the older ones (just checked on 1909), there was no "trick" involved, clicking "Change Adapter Option" from the same Network and Internet settings page brought up the legacy panel.

And yes, PowerShell is a godsend.

[themadhippy]

In the Network and Internet settings page, just click 'Properties' for the network adapter you want to set up and it's right there (20H2).

The issue is trying to find that page,not everyone realises right clicking on start brings up a diffrent menu to  the one you get with left click.

[newbrain]

In the Network and Internet settings page, just click 'Properties' for the network adapter you want to set up and it's right there (20H2).

The issue is trying to find that page,not everyone realises right clicking on start brings up a diffrent menu to  the one you get with left click.

Which is accessed exactly as on Windows 7 (AFAICR, it's been some time...), clicking on the Network icon in the system tray.

[gmb42]

I forgot the oldy, Win key + R, then type ncpa.cpl.  Also works from any shell prompt.

[AlexJackson]

I need to look further into Win10 LTSC... Win7 is working fine but id like to update to new hardware and not give up gaming yet. I also don't like the idea of updates randomly changing my settings and Microsoft deciding what "apps" I want or don't want ESPECIALLY on my main server where I'm locked to windows due to hardware and applications.

Or I could just say eff it, and keep my current win7 machine for gaming and my new build for when I want to get work done and not have to trace down idiotic random changes and reboots.

[gnuarm]

Anything above USB2 runs the risk of "my cable doesn't have all the signals that this peripheral wants", just like in the bad old days with DB25, DE9, etc :-(  On the bright side, everything is supposed to revert to USB2; it just might not perform as well as expected.
I've never been clear on what "Pro" offers.  It may have more to do with how the system can be "administered" than with features that are visible to users.

I could be wrong, but I believe there are some features of remote operation that are not supported with the "home" version of Windows. 

[james_s]

I need to look further into Win10 LTSC... Win7 is working fine but id like to update to new hardware and not give up gaming yet. I also don't like the idea of updates randomly changing my settings and Microsoft deciding what "apps" I want or don't want ESPECIALLY on my main server where I'm locked to windows due to hardware and applications.

Or I could just say eff it, and keep my current win7 machine for gaming and my new build for when I want to get work done and not have to trace down idiotic random changes and reboots.

I will NEVER install Win10 bare metal on one of my machines. They had one chance at a first impression and screwed up royally, it was the most half baked piece of crap when first foisted on the world, I've seen beta stuff that was better. When Win7 becomes no longer viable I'll install Win10 in a VM under Linux. I've already migrated most of my systems over to Linux but Win7 is still my favorite OS overall. I know where everything is, MS doesn't screw with it, and it pretty much just works.

[MrMobodies]

I need to look further into Win10 LTSC... Win7 is working fine but id like to update to new hardware and not give up gaming yet. I also don't like the idea of updates randomly changing my settings and Microsoft deciding what "apps" I want or don't want ESPECIALLY on my main server where I'm locked to windows due to hardware and applications.

Or I could just say eff it, and keep my current win7 machine for gaming and my new build for when I want to get work done and not have to trace down idiotic random changes and reboots.

I hear there is a thing called 0patch for Windows 7 but I haven't tried it yet.

https://0patch.com/pricing.html

I know exactly how you feel and I went to great efforts over months experimenting and studying what the additional services do and trying to disable the telemetry stuff manually and any connections made to Microsoft and it's partners. You can switch off "App stuff" from automatically installing in Group policy editor so when installing a printer it doesn't get the "app" for it I'd have to look where that option is again. It was with a lot of frustration and anger for a long time until I got it the way I want and sometimes I feel it wasn't worth it due to the amount of work, staring at the screen looking for things, like removing many annoying nagging services, permissions and update notification ux stuff. I have a headache after and eye strain so it couldn't be any good for me.

I'd buy another drive and switch between the two just incase anything happens with the Windows 10 LTSC.

Here's what I do to gain control of the windows update service:

After Windows 10 is installed just make a backup of the drive with something like Macrium on another operating system or computer.

With it mounted:
I think it was in Program files, I can't remember which one but take ownership and remove.
Waasmedic folder, (Windows update mediatoon. There maybe another one called REMPL that turns it on too.

Task scheduler:

Take ownership of c:\windows\system32\tasks\
disable inheritence and convert then Deny SYSTEM everything.
Then delete the tasks in there.

In registry look for "Computer\HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Schedule\TaskCache\Tree\Microsoft\Windows\UpdateOrchestrator"
change permission to deny "Trustinstaller" everything.

Then look above it in ""Computer\HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Schedule"
For tasks that match "usocore" and do the same to them but remove all the stuff in the keys.

Otherwise without setting this what I found will happen when Usocore starts again, it will default, recreate the tasks in the folders, the registry keys and deny the administrators the permissions. (Blooming cheek)


To gain control to start/stop and edit services:
In the services and application where you are prevented from altering Update Orchestor service, in registry editor look for USOCORE and change the type to like 16 where you can start/stop and disable the service.

That is only one thing, there are many other things I do and remove maybe I should do a thread on it.
I don't plan anytime going through all that aggravation again and the of time it took me.

See pictures.

I am going to try and clone it when I want another copy and I just get key and that.

If you want a go at the one I setup in the pictures, message me and I can set remote access, and If you are happy with it maybe I can send it over as a disk image file and if you get working you can purchase a key for it for £15 from the site I got it from. That one is on a virtual machine for testing.

[Berni]

Anything above USB2 runs the risk of "my cable doesn't have all the signals that this peripheral wants", just like in the bad old days with DB25, DE9, etc :-(  On the bright side, everything is supposed to revert to USB2; it just might not perform as well as expected.
I've never been clear on what "Pro" offers.  It may have more to do with how the system can be "administered" than with features that are visible to users.

I could be wrong, but I believe there are some features of remote operation that are not supported with the "home" version of Windows.

It is indeed mostly features you wouldn't quickly notice, mostly things the business/enterprise clients need, but when it does lock down a feature you end up needing, it can be really frustrating.

For example the home version of Win10 will not take more than 128GB of RAM, can't connect to RemoteDesktop, doesn't support HyperV, doesn't have BitLocker drive encryption.

But this is quite a bit more relaxed compared to the cheap castrated Win7 licenses. For example Win7 Starter only lets you have up to 2GB of RAM and no 64bit, no multimonitor support and no printing over the network. Stepping up to Win7 HomeBasic solves that but still only allows up to 8GB of RAM, but still doesn't have remote desktop. Even going up to Win7 Pro won't get you BitLocker support, you need to get Win7 Ultimate for that.

In still sticking to Win 7 until i have a reason to go up.

[newbrain]

can't connect to RemoteDesktop

Just to clarify: it connects quite happily to a remote desktop (the client is there).
What is not possible is enable remote access to a W10 Home machine. There's SW for that, if you need it.
It's also not possible to make it a member of an AD Domain.

[gnuarm]

can't connect to RemoteDesktop

Just to clarify: it connects quite happily to a remote desktop (the client is there).
What is not possible is enable remote access to a W10 Home machine. There's SW for that, if you need it.

Yeah, it's called Win10 Pro

[james_s]

I would never recommend anyone go with anything less than Pro. Even Pro is bad enough but Win10 Home is seriously gimped 'freemium' software, the level of control over updates, or lack thereof is completely unacceptable IMO and it is missing some features as mentioned above.

[westfw]

You can switch off "App stuff" from automatically installing in Group policy editor

Ah.  "Group Policy Editor" would be one of the things not included in "W10 Home"...(although it looks like you can download and install it without needing the "Pro" upgrade.)

[MrMobodies]

You can switch off "App stuff" from automatically installing in Group policy editor

Ah.  "Group Policy Editor" would be one of the things not included in "W10 Home"...(although it looks like you can download and install it without needing the "Pro" upgrade.)

The last time I used group policy editor in Windows 10 pro (from an I5 I found down the skip) and it looked like whatever settings I set with the updates got simply ignored and then I got brutal and super annoyed:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/general-computing/windows-10-update-aggro/

I realised that this is not the way, install an update and might undo stuff and with group policy not being honored not good enough now I have a 2016 LTSB on there but that was a lot of work removing stuff.

I believe the attached images of group policies below might be responsible for the app store stuff like install a printer on web services (did that once by accident) and "the app" gets download automatically and placed in start menu "apps" which is not what I wanted and accessing the print queue and some silly thing is put in the way where I have click "see what's printing".

Also I think I found another couple of policies last 2 pictures that might install stuff if unset.

[james_s]

If somebody goes out of their way to set something like that, they need to stop trying to override the users wishes, just stop! A person who wishes that level of control over their PC is not just going to give in, they're going to take ever more drastic steps to take control, likely completely negating the intent of the update.

[GlennSprigg]

All backwards compat as everyone has said. but to ease your mind...
I recently purchased a new notebook for the 'missus', which still has 2 'normal' USB ports, and the new 'Type-C' port. This Type-C port
doesn't care which way up you plug things in, and is gearing towards all new hardware eventually using that connector. However, I also
purchased an adaptor, 'like' in the following link, which gives you 4 more 'normal' USB ports anyway! There are many, and cheap...

https://www.kogan.com/au/buy/aze-4-usb-30-multi-hub-charging-port-multiport-adapter-high-speed-expansion-windows-mac-pc-vcom-9100221000019/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=product_listing_ads&gclid=CjwKCAjwg4-EBhBwEiwAzYAlsvMbU2ZgpvrvjLh66KVJi-qpcqBiqWTEyunS8_WZw29QOhHmoBGnyBoCw5sQAvD_BwE

[SilverSolder]

Adaptors are great...   Until you don't have one to hand!

[gnuarm]

Adaptors are great...   Until you don't have one to hand!

Bah!  Even with adapters, you can have issues with the technology.  I wanted to use a neighbor's printer.  But he doesn't have a computer connected to the printer, using an iPhone and iPad instead.  My file was on a USB stick.  He had an adapter for the USB C port on his iPad, but neither of us knew enough about the iStuff to know how to access the durn drive!  I found two or three apps that would read a PDF, but the interface is so different from a PC that I couldn't find a way to access the file system!  I need an OS adapter!

I know on my android phone the files are not organized remotely like a PC.  I have a micro flash card in the phone that barely gets used because of that.  Maybe I need to go back to school. 

[SilverSolder]

Adaptors are great...   Until you don't have one to hand!

Bah!  Even with adapters, you can have issues with the technology.  I wanted to use a neighbor's printer.  But he doesn't have a computer connected to the printer, using an iPhone and iPad instead.  My file was on a USB stick.  He had an adapter for the USB C port on his iPad, but neither of us knew enough about the iStuff to know how to access the durn drive!  I found two or three apps that would read a PDF, but the interface is so different from a PC that I couldn't find a way to access the file system!  I need an OS adapter!

I know on my android phone the files are not organized remotely like a PC.  I have a micro flash card in the phone that barely gets used because of that.  Maybe I need to go back to school.

I put a FTP server on my Android device...  That helped a lot, as you can then walk the file system from the PC (with e.g. a FileZilla client) instead of a fiddly little screen...   I managed to find pictures and music, which are what takes up all the space anyway!

[GlennSprigg]

To 'gnuarm',  Can't you just email the iPhone/iPad recipient, with an attachment containing the file to be printed??   

[gnuarm]

To 'gnuarm',  Can't you just email the iPhone/iPad recipient, with an attachment containing the file to be printed??   

Not if the USB stick won't plug into my phone and my computer is not present.  When my friend said I could use his printer it never occurred to me he wouldn't have it connected to a computer I could plug the memory stick into.  He has two laptops that I saw, but I guess he doesn't use them much and they aren't connected to his printer which it would seem uses wifi (equals messy set up).  This was explained in my post pretty clearly. 

File on USB memory stick, no way to get USB memory stick into a device that was connected to the printer.   

[Berni]

I put a FTP server on my Android device...  That helped a lot, as you can then walk the file system from the PC (with e.g. a FileZilla client) instead of a fiddly little screen...   I managed to find pictures and music, which are what takes up all the space anyway!

Yes for some silly reason a lot of Android distros don't include damn file manager, or include some basic barely functional one made by the phone manufacturer.

I just install Total Commander on my phone and that works well. It lets you browse pretty much anywhere you like including the root filesystem (but with user privileges obviously). Don't think it has anything to do with the TotalComander for Windows that many old PC users might remeber, but it is a file manager with the same sort of design goal of being no bullshit and as functional as possible rather than trying to look pretty.

But yeah Apple throws the usual concept of a filesystem out the window with iOS, going instead for each app having a walled garden of storage, so if you want to fetch a photo from storage you ask the gallery app to give it to you. For a long time it was not even possible to connect a iPhone to a PC without having iTunes installed. If you wanted to transfer any files it had to be trough putting them in a special sync folder and syncing them across. I found its easier to get files on it by installing the dropbox app and using that. There does exist a cable that converts from Lighting to USB-A host, but back when i tried one of these cables, all it could do is run a import wizard to import photos or music from a USB drive into internal storage.

This idea with iOS is probably to cater to the many computer literate people that don't understand the concept of a filesystem. The sort of uses that save files to the desktop or "My Documents" and they don't realize this is merely a special folder on the C drive. Even microsoft themselves is pushing this sort of use case since the last few versions of Office don't display the classical Win32 save file dialog window when you click save, but instead open up this weird full screen menu that lets you directly save to some popular places or the cloud or whatever, once you press browse on that menu is when you get your usual file dialog window where you can tell it exactly where in your filesystem to save something.

[SilverSolder]

I put a FTP server on my Android device...  That helped a lot, as you can then walk the file system from the PC (with e.g. a FileZilla client) instead of a fiddly little screen...   I managed to find pictures and music, which are what takes up all the space anyway!

Yes for some silly reason a lot of Android distros don't include damn file manager, or include some basic barely functional one made by the phone manufacturer.

I use ES File Explorer, haven't tried Total Commander -  the name is definitely a blast from the past! 

[...] For a long time it was not even possible to connect a iPhone to a PC without having iTunes installed. [...]

Is it even possible today?  If so, how?  I know someone that is being driven crazy by not being able to off-load movie files from their iPad to their PC...

This idea with iOS is probably to cater to the many computer literate people that don't understand the concept of a filesystem. The sort of uses that save files to the desktop or "My Documents" and they don't realize this is merely a special folder on the C drive.
Even microsoft themselves is pushing this sort of use case since the last few versions of Office don't display the classical Win32 save file dialog window when you click save, but instead open up this weird full screen menu that lets you directly save to some popular places or the cloud or whatever, once you press browse on that menu is when you get your usual file dialog window where you can tell it exactly where in your filesystem to save something.

Yes, now you have to click several things to get to save your file, instead of just once.  It is a constant annoyance.

I think you are right, "they" have figured out that many (most) n00b users have problems understanding a file system.  So that means the concept has to be removed from everyone, in order to not make the n00bs feel bad about themselves for being n00bs! 

[gnuarm]

I put a FTP server on my Android device...  That helped a lot, as you can then walk the file system from the PC (with e.g. a FileZilla client) instead of a fiddly little screen...   I managed to find pictures and music, which are what takes up all the space anyway!

Yes for some silly reason a lot of Android distros don't include damn file manager, or include some basic barely functional one made by the phone manufacturer.

I just install Total Commander on my phone and that works well. It lets you browse pretty much anywhere you like including the root filesystem (but with user privileges obviously). Don't think it has anything to do with the TotalComander for Windows that many old PC users might remeber, but it is a file manager with the same sort of design goal of being no bullshit and as functional as possible rather than trying to look pretty.

My phone seems to have none.  I will try TotalComander.  Thanks.

But yeah Apple throws the usual concept of a filesystem out the window with iOS, going instead for each app having a walled garden of storage, so if you want to fetch a photo from storage you ask the gallery app to give it to you. For a long time it was not even possible to connect a iPhone to a PC without having iTunes installed. If you wanted to transfer any files it had to be trough putting them in a special sync folder and syncing them across. I found its easier to get files on it by installing the dropbox app and using that. There does exist a cable that converts from Lighting to USB-A host, but back when i tried one of these cables, all it could do is run a import wizard to import photos or music from a USB drive into internal storage.

But iOS should be able to read a USB stick, or there's no point in having one!  I'm printing another page today, so I've emailed it to my friend.  I don't expect any trouble with that, but if there is, I'll try finding gallery.

This idea with iOS is probably to cater to the many computer literate people that don't understand the concept of a filesystem. The sort of uses that save files to the desktop or "My Documents" and they don't realize this is merely a special folder on the C drive. Even microsoft themselves is pushing this sort of use case since the last few versions of Office don't display the classical Win32 save file dialog window when you click save, but instead open up this weird full screen menu that lets you directly save to some popular places or the cloud or whatever, once you press browse on that menu is when you get your usual file dialog window where you can tell it exactly where in your filesystem to save something.

I get the idea and I'm not opposed to it.  If it's going to be for the masses it should be intuitive enough even a skilled computer user can figure it out.  Windows is not great by any means, but over the years and iterations they have honed off the rough edges.  One nice thing they do is when a flash drive is inserted it gives you choices as to what to do.  The iPad just gave me a blank look, like a pretty woman who couldn't get a high school diploma.  (I guess I should say "pretty man/woman")

[Berni]

But iOS should be able to read a USB stick, or there's no point in having one!  I'm printing another page today, so I've emailed it to my friend.  I don't expect any trouble with that, but if there is, I'll try finding gallery.

Well it does read it. Just instead of showing up as a filesystem it, it rather asks you what photos you want to download from it and then proceeds to copy them. Why? I have no idea, i guess i just don't know how to 'Think different'

Plugging an USB thumb drive into an android phone just makes it show up as another folder in the filesystem... like a normal person would expect on Linux.

[...] For a long time it was not even possible to connect a iPhone to a PC without having iTunes installed. [...]

Is it even possible today?  If so, how?  I know someone that is being driven crazy by not being able to off-load movie files from their iPad to their PC...

There is a setting somewhere that makes iPhones show up as something along the lines of a USB portable digital camera and lets you browse files on it. It wont let you get to everything but you can see photos and some stuff. However i don't think you can actually copy any files onto the phone this way.


I had phones running Windows Mobile from back in 2003 (4 years before the first iphone was created) and they did use this Microsoft ActiveSync thing over USB, so much like iTunes, but more functional. Yet you could still configure the phone to pretend it is a USB thumb drive and you could copy files in both directions however you wanted. Since the full sized SD card was also hot swapable i actually used this phone as a SD card reader a few times, since the card contests also just show up as USB storage in the same way it would in a actual card reader. Windows mobile also came with a file manager as part of the OS so there was no need to install a third party one. Also the 'app screen' was fully customizable just because its simply showing the contents of the StartMenu folder on the system drive (Just like regular windows does). Android didn't have that from the beginning but later got it, iPhones only recently got this feature. But it seams the UI was not understandable to the general public. If i let someone use my phone to call someone they never knew how to use it because it was different to what they expect from a phone, since it acts more like a miniature PC Windows OS. So once iPhone and Android got popular they wanted to fit in and threw away the whole OS then make Windows Phone 7 from the ground up to be a Android copycat... we all know how well that went.

[SilverSolder]

But iOS should be able to read a USB stick, or there's no point in having one!  I'm printing another page today, so I've emailed it to my friend.  I don't expect any trouble with that, but if there is, I'll try finding gallery.

Well it does read it. Just instead of showing up as a filesystem it, it rather asks you what photos you want to download from it and then proceeds to copy them. Why? I have no idea, i guess i just don't know how to 'Think different'

Plugging an USB thumb drive into an android phone just makes it show up as another folder in the filesystem... like a normal person would expect on Linux.

[...] For a long time it was not even possible to connect a iPhone to a PC without having iTunes installed. [...]

Is it even possible today?  If so, how?  I know someone that is being driven crazy by not being able to off-load movie files from their iPad to their PC...

There is a setting somewhere that makes iPhones show up as something along the lines of a USB portable digital camera and lets you browse files on it. It wont let you get to everything but you can see photos and some stuff. However i don't think you can actually copy any files onto the phone this way.


I had phones running Windows Mobile from back in 2003 (4 years before the first iphone was created) and they did use this Microsoft ActiveSync thing over USB, so much like iTunes, but more functional. Yet you could still configure the phone to pretend it is a USB thumb drive and you could copy files in both directions however you wanted. Since the full sized SD card was also hot swapable i actually used this phone as a SD card reader a few times, since the card contests also just show up as USB storage in the same way it would in a actual card reader. Windows mobile also came with a file manager as part of the OS so there was no need to install a third party one. Also the 'app screen' was fully customizable just because its simply showing the contents of the StartMenu folder on the system drive (Just like regular windows does). Android didn't have that from the beginning but later got it, iPhones only recently got this feature. But it seams the UI was not understandable to the general public. If i let someone use my phone to call someone they never knew how to use it because it was different to what they expect from a phone, since it acts more like a miniature PC Windows OS. So once iPhone and Android got popular they wanted to fit in and threw away the whole OS then make Windows Phone 7 from the ground up to be a Android copycat... we all know how well that went.

Imagine if they had stuck with it, and majored on being compatible, instead of trying (and failing) to copy the "dumb blonde" devices...

[gnuarm]

But iOS should be able to read a USB stick, or there's no point in having one!  I'm printing another page today, so I've emailed it to my friend.  I don't expect any trouble with that, but if there is, I'll try finding gallery.

Well it does read it. Just instead of showing up as a filesystem it, it rather asks you what photos you want to download from it and then proceeds to copy them. Why? I have no idea, i guess i just don't know how to 'Think different'

It did nothing when plugged into my friend's iPad.  Maybe the adapter wasn't working then.  Don't know.

Plugging an USB thumb drive into an android phone just makes it show up as another folder in the filesystem... like a normal person would expect on Linux.

I suppose, but I haven't found a way to navagate the file system under Android, or maybe it's that I just don't know how to do that.  I have a PDF file from an email and I get no option under Gmail to save it, just opening it with apps.  I choose "Drive PDF Viewer" and it also gives me one option for where to save it, "My Drive" where ever that is.  A second viewer, Foxit seems to offer only Device or Cloud without options for directories.

That's why I continue to use my PC as the main and only work tool for communications other than actual voice calls.

[SilverSolder]

But iOS should be able to read a USB stick, or there's no point in having one!  I'm printing another page today, so I've emailed it to my friend.  I don't expect any trouble with that, but if there is, I'll try finding gallery.

Well it does read it. Just instead of showing up as a filesystem it, it rather asks you what photos you want to download from it and then proceeds to copy them. Why? I have no idea, i guess i just don't know how to 'Think different'

It did nothing when plugged into my friend's iPad.  Maybe the adapter wasn't working then.  Don't know.

Plugging an USB thumb drive into an android phone just makes it show up as another folder in the filesystem... like a normal person would expect on Linux.

I suppose, but I haven't found a way to navagate the file system under Android, or maybe it's that I just don't know how to do that.  I have a PDF file from an email and I get no option under Gmail to save it, just opening it with apps.  I choose "Drive PDF Viewer" and it also gives me one option for where to save it, "My Drive" where ever that is.  A second viewer, Foxit seems to offer only Device or Cloud without options for directories.

That's why I continue to use my PC as the main and only work tool for communications other than actual voice calls.

An Android file system looks a lot like a Windows file system (once you have a decent file browser),  the only issue is finding where the files are stored?

The SD card can be formatted FAT32, or ExFAT, compatible with Windows...

[Bassman59]

But yeah Apple throws the usual concept of a filesystem out the window with iOS, going instead for each app having a walled garden of storage, so if you want to fetch a photo from storage you ask the gallery app to give it to you. For a long time it was not even possible to connect a iPhone to a PC without having iTunes installed. If you wanted to transfer any files it had to be trough putting them in a special sync folder and syncing them across. I found its easier to get files on it by installing the dropbox app and using that. There does exist a cable that converts from Lighting to USB-A host, but back when i tried one of these cables, all it could do is run a import wizard to import photos or music from a USB drive into internal storage.

Your knowledge of iOS is obsolete.

iOS 11, five years ago, introduced a file system manager called (in Apple's usual understated way) the Files app. It works pretty much as you expect. At the top level it shows Locations such as "On My iPhone" and "iCloud Drive" and even "Downloads." You can even connect to a remote server -- see the picture of my iPhone connected to my MacBook Pro.

By default, apps save their files in obvious places, such as Numbers saving spreadsheets in a Numbers directory. But you can actually save files anywhere you want.

iPadOS also allows the use of external storage. If you have an iPad with the Lightning connector, you can use the Camera connector dongle which exposes a USB port and connect USB storage to that, or if you have one of the newer iPads with USB-C or now Thunderbolt-4, the standard cables can connect to USB storage.

So, yeah, if you're going to make sweeping statements about how you can't do this or that, maybe you should find out if what you are saying is true before posting, mmmkay?

[SilverSolder]

[...]  If you have an iPad with the Lightning connector, you can use the Camera connector dongle which exposes a USB port and connect USB storage to that[...]

Are there any limitations with this, such as only exposing certain directories and/or file types - or can I equip my wife with one of those dongles and solve her problem of getting data from her iPad to her PC?

So far, I haven't found a solution to this problem, despite looking on and off for probably 5 years...  I'm probably overlooking something obvious...