Want to Build a Quiet Computer

[bostonman]

Have you considered some HDMI and USB extenders to move the PC to a location where low noise isn't as important?

Silly question, but why can't a water cooled system be used in a separate box located elsewhere? If the micro needs one fan, and the graphics card uses two or three, why not one large cooler with four fans located elsewhere and hoses connecting the water lines?

Also, as for PCI slots, this is some confusion for me. I assumed a smaller PCI cards can be used in a 16, but think I read a 16 can be used in an 8. Ignoring speed issues (because an 8 won't run faster in a 16, and a 16 will run slower in an , and just mechanical. Would I be better off buying a motherboard with several 16s only so I can always expand if needed?

I don't know what items need which size slot, but want to make sure I don't buy something already outdated.

[magic]

Silly question, but why can't a water cooled system be used in a separate box located elsewhere? If the micro needs one fan, and the graphics card uses two or three, why not one large cooler with four fans located elsewhere and hoses connecting the water lines?

Sky is the limit. It's just a few meters of plumbing to run through walls, coolant to fill it and pumps and shit.
Why bother though?

[grumpydoc]

Just to get a handle on modern PC noise levels.

I have just about got my PC rebuilt and working after its "little accident" - so I now have a i7-10700k, MSI Z490I itx motherboard, 3 hard drives (raid for backup & long term storage), 1 SSD, 5 fans (including the quite ludicrous Noctua NF-A14 IndustrialPPC), a Gigabyte RX570 GPU (oh, sorry, make that 7 fans with the two GPU fans, no - actually that's 8 as the motherboard has a tiny fan to help with VRM cooling). All in a Fractal Design Node 304 - which is not the roomiest case out there

Ambient noise levels in the room are 40-45dB and I can't hear this PC which is currently less than a foot away - by far the loudest noise is the file server - that has 10 disks in an NSC-800 chassis and, while not loud, is distinctly annoying.

Which brings me to:

Everyone seem to be only concerned with db rating of the fan, but quality of sound has a lot to do with how you'd perceive it as well. 

It was briefly mentioned in passing, then not discussed, but you are absolutely right - some sounds or their harmonic content are definitely more annoying. In fact this is one of the areas that has improved hugely since 2016 as not only have components got quieter but effort has gone into trying to move the energy into less noticeable frequencies.

Also, as for PCI slots, this is some confusion for me. I assumed a smaller PCI cards can be used in a 16, but think I read a 16 can be used in an 8. Ignoring speed issues (because an 8 won't run faster in a 16, and a 16 will run slower in an , and just mechanical. Would I be better off buying a motherboard with several 16s only so I can always expand if needed?

What do you need loads of PCIe for?

For anything other than a graphics card or PCIe storage you do not need much more than an x1 (PCIe 3.0 is 1GB/s per lane)

For intel 16 lanes come out of the CPU, typically to the slot closest the CPU for a graphics card, 24 come out of the PCH, usually giving another x16 slot for a 2nd graphics card and the rest maybe to further slots - you have to go up to server class motherboards and CPUs to get more x16 slots (at that point your $2300 budget starts to look puny rather than generous).

But, honestly, don't try to future proof your hardware.

[bostonman]

Sky is the limit. It's just a few meters of plumbing to run through walls, coolant to fill it and pumps and shit.
Why bother though?

It would allow the tower to be local, but the "loud" cooling to be elsewhere. At that point the tower would only have two fans; a power supply and one for the case.

I doubt that would work though, the air would need to be bled from the lines, the pump strong enough to pump several feet, etc...

[nali]

FWIW this is the PC I've been using for the past 7yrs or so... it's an i7 4770k and has absolutely zero fans , and the only moving part is the DVD drive.

[grumpydoc]

Nice looking build

[wraper]

FWIW this is the PC I've been using for the past 7yrs or so... it's an i7 4770k and has absolutely zero fans , and the only moving part is the DVD drive.

How about HDD which spins all of the time? And I don't think that cooling is anywhere adequate if you run it under prolonged heavy load. Hot air will simply stay within the case.

[tkamiya]

Wow....  That giant radiator (heat sink) is a thing of a beauty!

[Bud]

Noctura fans are quiet.

Also ugly and expensive

They appear to be cheaply made and flimsy in construction. I do not know what the fuzz is about Noctua fans.

[tkamiya]

There are two note worthy things about Noctura fans.

1)  They are quiet.
2)  They spent just as much money in packaging as the product.

I don't think they are cheaply made.  Certainly not an industrial grade, but as a consumer grade fan, they are adequate.

[nali]

FWIW this is the PC I've been using for the past 7yrs or so... it's an i7 4770k and has absolutely zero fans , and the only moving part is the DVD drive.

How about HDD which spins all of the time? And I don't think that cooling is anywhere adequate if you run it under prolonged heavy load. Hot air will simply stay within the case.

Drives are a pair of SSDs so it really is zero noise.

You can't see from that pic, but most of the top/sides of the case are perforated so there's a fairly  decent convection path. OK so we don't really get extreme temperatures here in the UK but my office gets the sun in the afternoons so it's been 30+C in here and quite happy. I don't really give it a hard time performance wise, most of the time it's running MS-Office, Kicad sometimes Freecad and the occasional code compilation.

Anyway it works fine for me, I'm happy with it 

[nctnico]

There are two note worthy things about Noctura fans.

1)  They are quiet.
2)  They spent just as much money in packaging as the product.

I don't think they are cheaply made.  Certainly not an industrial grade, but as a consumer grade fan, they are adequate.

Noctua does seem to have an industrial product line too. But I agree on the packaging; that is way over the top.

[Marco]

Any closet next to the room? Long cables are affordable and it's hard to compete with the silencing two layers of gypsum board, let alone a more substantial wall.

[magic]

Nice build. Hard to beat passive convection in terms of noise

I had a look at my fans - it's a mix of Noiseblocker and Scythe stuff. Not actually much cheaper but looks 100x better than Noctua and all have been running reliably and silently for over 5 years now.

Only the 140mm intake fan is some cheap no-name brand and I had to take it apart and lubricate the bearing at one point because it started to tick. I think I put some standard ball bearing grease in there after a failed experiment with silicone oil (doesn't last long, leaks, nasty stuff).

[David Hess]

Without a fan on the massive heat pipe air coolers that I use, all of my recent PC builds would have the CPU overheat.  But just running the fan at silent speed is enough to maintain a reasonable, below 65C, CPU temperature.

[rrinker]

If I go with or without a graphics card, do I need to change a setting on the MB to tell it not to use it's micro to run the graphics?

I think my final question (although I had a few in my previous post) is: do I need a MB with a combination of PCI slots (1, 4, 8, 16, etc...) or just go with PCI 16, and how many?

The MB's have many terms I'm unfamiliar with, so I'm uncertain what is essential, and what is a waste. I know ECC is an option, but doesn't seem I need it.

 There may be an option too disable the CPU's onboard graphics. But you wouldn't select that without a discrete video card. Intel's internal graphics may not be the ultimate for games, but they ARE fast at video rendering and playback - so I think you will have no issues there. My much older processor has no problem playing back video or, as I mentioned, using KiCAD or EasyEDA. Even the 3D parts are smooth and fast. And that CPU is 2 generations newer than what I have in my workbench computer.

 As for slots - it doesn't really matter. You'll want one x16 if you plan to install a video card. Most Intel motherboards that have more than one x16 slot actually toggle them down to x8 if both are occupied with X16 cards, the CPU doesn't have enough PCIe lanes to feed all that. And unless you are going with a mini-ITX size board, there will be additional slots. Mine in the workbench computer has 2 slots on it, an x1 and an x16. I'd have no cards at all installed but I needed extra USB ports so I have a USB card in it. My new desktop machine has a video card in the x16 but has some x4 and x1 slots free (current AMD CPUs have more PCIe lanes for peripherals than Intel). My server has the exact same motherboard, the only thing in a slot is a PCIe x1 video card - it's a server, I just need a display for the desktop, not a high performance display. I figured I'd leave the x16 slot free for a 10Gb network card - although an x4 slot is fast enough for that.

 I have yet to see a need for ECC memory on a home machine. I have never had an issue that could be traced to a bit flip that would have been caught by ECC memory. You're not going to get ECC support with the I7-9700K anyway. It's a different story for a mission critical server, or if your workload is something like long running calculations that take days to complete or require extreme precision. CAD, video editing, programming - waste of money to get an ECC capable system. With Intel that requires server grade CPUs that cost a lot more, AND motherboards that support ECC, plus the added cost of ECC. A waste except for specialized use cases.

[bostonman]

As for PCI slots, I predict I'll need:

USB extender (for additional UBS ports)

Graphics card

Network card (I know the mother board comes with one, but will the standard change soon to something that may require a faster network connection???)

Possibly a parallel port (or maybe I can just buy a parallel to USB external device???)

GPIB (or maybe I can just buy a GPIB to USB external device?)

So should I look for extra 16s or does a standard number exist on how many come on a mother board?

[grumpydoc]

As for PCI slots, I predict I'll need:

USB extender (for additional UBS ports)

What USB devices do you envisage using? Most motherboards have plenty of USB ports these days

Graphics card

Fair enough, 1 x16 slot

Network card (I know the mother board comes with one, but will the standard change soon to something that may require a faster network connection???)

Nah, pick a m/b with 2.5GbE - unlikely to need faster within the lifetime of the board.

Possibly a parallel port...

What on earth for?

GPIB (or maybe I can just buy a GPIB to USB external device?)

Even if you went for a PCIe card (expensive) these are only going to need an x1 slot

So should I look for extra 16s or does a standard number exist on how many come on a mother board?

So far I can't see that you need more than an x16 and an x1

[David Hess]

Network card (I know the mother board comes with one, but will the standard change soon to something that may require a faster network connection???)

The upgrade from 1 Gigabit Ethernet is a pretty big step and getting better than 1 Gigabit performance out of common inexpensive storage arrays is not trivial.  SSDs are so much smaller that they have less need for high network throughput; it just does not take long enough to copy their limited capacity to matter.

For example I could have made good use of better than 1 Gigabit performance last year when rebuilding my NAS and file server but neither could sustain that level of performance.  Even my new file server cannot from Windows Storage Spaces no matter how it is configured although it now handily saturates its 1 Gigabit Ethernet connection when operating from its RAID HBA or an SSD.

So should I look for extra 16s or does a standard number exist on how many come on a mother board?

For inexpensive motherboards, dual physical PCIe x16 slots which operate at x8 or better are common along with an auxiliary PCIe x4 slot and several PCIe x 1 slots and maybe PCI slots.  Beyond that the cost is much higher.

[bostonman]

As for network speeds, you never know if 2.5Gbs will change sooner than expected.

Basically, I don't want to select a motherboard that is below standard. I can accept say buying a standard MB and run out of PCI slots, but I want to make sure I'm getting at least the standard, and, if possible, room to expand into unexpected areas.

A parallel port device, I highly doubt I'll ever use it, but know I have several older pieces of test equipment that use parallel and GPIB, so should I ever have a need to connect them, I'd like to know I can. Most likely though, I can find a USB external converter.

Also, as for USB ports, I figure, a keyboard, mouse, thumbdrive, phone, and then I have old hard drives that go from the 40 () pin header (I can't think of the name at the moment), to a USB connection. They are old drives, but still, are external with backed up data.

My last PC (and current) didn't come with any front USB ports, and I had to get an extender. Since then, I've had a need for more than the available two on the front and have been limited several times. Although I mentioned additional USB ports, I should have specified front accessible ones.

For inexpensive motherboards, dual physical PCIe x16 slots which operate at x8 or better are common along with an auxiliary PCIe x4 slot and several PCIe x 1 slots and maybe PCI slots.  Beyond that the cost is much higher.

Do not all x16 slots operate at 16? They may be physically 16, but run at 8?

[grumpydoc]

The upgrade from 1 Gigabit Ethernet is a pretty big step and getting better than 1 Gigabit performance out of common inexpensive storage arrays is not trivial.  SSDs are so much smaller that they have less need for high network throughput; it just does not take long enough to copy their limited capacity to matter.

True enough

My fastest array (4x 8TB drives in a raid 10 config) sustains 320MB/s write & 380MB/s read so it should be able to saturate 1GbE and could make use of 2.5GbE easily but, say, my home directory is on an encrypted partition underlying which is just a mirrored pair and it manages a much more modest 100MB/sec.

I don't recall if bostonman had a NAS but that's really the only reason in a domestic setup to contemplate a network which is faster than your Internet connection - and you aren't going to see faster than 1GB/s (at least I don't know of anywhere offering faster), frequently not even that - I have 50Mb/s and that is the fastest technology available to me, no 5G, no fibre and too far from the cabinet for G.Fast.

That said boards are appearing with 2.GbE - and it is backwards compatible with 1GbE so there's no reason to not get 2.5GbE

[rrinker]

 If you're going to add in a video card anyway, consider an AMD CPU then. Equivalent to that Intel is about $100 less, and uses faster PCIe 4.0

In both my machines I used the ASRock X570 PRO4 motherboard, with my case I have a total of 12 USB ports on this thing. I will never need an extra USB card on this. My workbench computer has a mini-ITX form factor board and only has 6 USB ports native, so for my gear I needed the extra card. That was about $170.

I have a Fractal Design Define C silent case - it has sound deadening, no big open grills, and comes with one quiet fan. I have not needed to add any more fans. That was $87  It has 2 USB 2.0 and 2 USB 3.1 on the front. And the motherbooard has 8 on the back.

For a power supply I used an EVGA Supernova 550 GA. It has an Eco mode where the fan doesn;t run at low and medium loads. Ignore the gaming nuts who say it isn;t enough, 550 watts is plenty for any single video card.  $120

For a CPU for this board, closest to that Intel, would be the Ryzen 7 3700X, 8 core/16 thread. The Intel one you listed does not do hyperthreading so it's 8 core/8 thread. The Ryzen coomes with a perfectly adequate cooler. $275

I have an EVGA GeoForce 2060 Super video card, overkill if you are not gaming, $470. A 1660 at half that price would work if you aren't gaming.

32GB RAM, $118

1TB NVME PCIE x4 4.0 SSD $190.

There's your system. $1195, with the 1660 video card. Mine has faster video but this would have a faster processor.

 

[David Hess]

As for network speeds, you never know if 2.5Gbs will change sooner than expected.

But 2.5Gb/s NICs and switches are not commonly available.  Newegg does not even include them as a selection and I do not see any 2.5Gb/s switches on Amazon.

Because of Mikrotik, 10G is more available; Mikrotik sells a reasonably priced 10G switch.

For inexpensive motherboards, dual physical PCIe x16 slots which operate at x8 or better are common along with an auxiliary PCIe x4 slot and several PCIe x 1 slots and maybe PCI slots.  Beyond that the cost is much higher.

Do not all x16 slots operate at 16? They may be physically 16, but run at 8?

It is common for one slot to be x16 and then both slots to be x8 if the second slot is used.  Whether this happens depends on the motherboard and CPU.  The difference in performance is not normally significant and x8 is plenty for all but the most demanding applications and hardware.

As pointed out earlier, AMD systems are more likely to provide dual x16 PCIe slots because their CPUs support more PCIe lanes but I would not consider this important.

[grumpydoc]

But 2.5Gb/s NICs and switches are not commonly available.

I didn't have any difficulty finding a 2.5GbE switch in stock in the UK - and at a non-ludicrous price¹ but choice was limited.

However, David does raise an important point - to gain the benefit of a faster network - be it 2.5GbE or 10GbE at least one other device must have a matching interface and any switches in between must also support the faster speeds. Upgrading half your network adds to the costs.

I would not discount a board because it had 2.5GbE though (it's backwards compatible).

And, for most devices, on most home networks they are not talking to other devices on the same network - they are talking to some server on the internet - so unless you have a 1Gb/s Internet connection you probably don't need faster than 1Gb Ethernet around the house.

1] Amazon claims stock of the Zyxel XGS1010 for same day delivery as I write this - with 8x 1GbE, 2x2.5GbE and 2x10GbE it seems to have all bases covered for about £130 (a few other retailers have stock as well).

[nctnico]

But 2.5Gb/s NICs and switches are not commonly available.

I didn't have any difficulty finding a 2.5GbE switch in stock in the UK - and at a non-ludicrous price¹ but choice was limited.

However, David does raise an important point - to gain the benefit of a faster network - be it 2.5GbE or 10GbE at least one other device must have a matching interface and any switches in between must also support the faster speeds. Upgrading half your network adds to the costs.

I would not discount a board because it had 2.5GbE though (it's backwards compatible).

If you want to upgrade to higher network speeds then it could be worthwhile to think about going for optic fiber instead of CAT7 cable. Optic fiber can go to even higher speeds if you want. I have CAT5e in my home which tops out at 1Gb/s and I assume the cabling will be similar for many people.