Windows 11 - first impressions?

[SiliconWizard]

So, a few people had played a bit with the leaked Win 11... but now that's it's officially out, is there anyone here who has installed it and uses it as a daily driver?
If so, what are your thoughts?

From a few comments I have heard at this point, it looks like it's more disappointing than what we thought when we saw the first tests. Sure the UI is a bit more polished, but apparently a lot of things have just plain disappeared. For instance, if I got it right, you can't open the task manager anymore just from a right click on the task bar. I don't now if there is any other easy shortcut. Menus have also become dumbed down a lot. Oh and of course, it will make your life miserable on a regular basis if you don't have an online account.

But more hands-on experience with it would be interesting.

[xrunner]

I have one PC that has the message Windows 11 is ready to install, but haven't done it yet (maybe this weekend). The thing I don't get is that PC has a Ryzen 3 3200G 4 core proc. and that is OK for Win 11. But my main PC, a Ryzen 7 1700 with 8 cores, is not on the list. Technically it's a more capable proc. so I do not understand this. I haven't found the answer as to why?

[ataradov]

Task bar in the middle would be a miserable experience.  You now how you hate when you go to press a link on a page with not fully loaded ad, and then ad loads and you click on an ad instead of a link? They took that principle and applied it to the OS. Imagine you go for a start button, but some application showed an error dialog or some hing like that, and as you click, you miss and launch whatever is next to the start. Also forget your muscle memory, you need to hunt controls, since they move around all the time.

Also, if I understand correctly there is no longer a way to display window title on the task bar, so if you have 5 PDFs open, you get to see 5 identical icons and then you need to guess which one is which. Even though your monitor is super wide and there is no need to save space by compressing stuff.

I'm so glad I use Linux at home, and I hope that by the time W11 rolls out in corporate environment there is some third-party shell that can be used to undo all their "innovations".

Ctrl-Shift-Esc is the shortcut for the task manager, which I hope still works in W11. But yeah, from what I heard most of the right button stuff is not there. I guess it is a continuation of the thing where they fail to  make tablet UI work on desktop.

[SiliconWizard]

The task bar - you can configure it to be left-aligned instead.

Otherwise, it looks a bit as though they had hired some people from the Gnome 3 team.

[ataradov]

The task bar - you can configure it to be left-aligned instead.

Good. I misinterpreted some information as you can move the start button to the left, but not the whole row of buttons. But from the screenshots it looks like the whole ting goes to the left.

Without full buttons it is pretty much useless to me. I constantly have multiple instance of the same app open.

Otherwise, it looks a bit as though they had hired some people from the Gnome 3 team.

Yep, just make things less and less usable. They will make a 'huge improvement' the next version when they put everything back.

[gmb42]

For instance, if I got it right, you can't open the task manager anymore just from a right click on the task bar. I don't now if there is any other easy shortcut.

Does the Ctrl + Shift + Escape hotkey still work?

[DiTBho]

W11 should have a built-in Android emulator 

[Marco]

I'm so glad I use Linux at home, and I hope that by the time W11 rolls out in corporate environment there is some third-party shell that can be used to undo all their "innovations".

Haven't tried Windows 11 yet, so I haven't needed it but it seems like there already is.

Citrix&Co should see this as an opportunity to keep relevant as Azure Stack and Virtual Desktop are eating their lunch. Make their own lookalike (as much as legally possible) desktop, start menu and taskbar and offer continuity and lack of disruption to corporate users. Just cast the applications.

Or maybe Microsoft takes a few steps back by the time you are forced to use it. The XML configurable tiled start menu became a somewhat useful superset of the classic start menu in the end, good way for a business to make important stuff discoverable and locked, if you could avoid all the experiments in desktop tiling and start menu fuckery in between. They can learn to force their GUI developers to swallow their ego, if enough fortune 500 companies tell them they are just not going to upgrade.

[SiliconWizard]

if enough fortune 500 companies tell them they are just not going to upgrade.

But I don't see this happening.

[Ed.Kloonk]

I'll just leave this here.

 

[SilverSolder]

The best thing about Windows 11 is that from now on, Windows 10 will be relatively stable as they stop messing with it! 

[ptluis]

It's really the good same s..t automatic updates that f...k up your system, bloatware, telemetry, many useless features that exhaust your computer resources, and so on. but if you are feeling loneliness and want a more intense experience just talk to the machine to fullfill your needs.... and if you ask her/him about bill gates it's even a more unique and intense one.... When I'm feeling alone I love to talk s..t with my google assistant... it's so nice and if I turn on cortana we made a threesome of intense talk...  Have you ever try to put both google assistant and cortana talking to each other?  well try and see for yourself 

PS. after 30min I deleted it

[ptluis]

The best thing about Windows 11 is that from now on, Windows 10 will be relatively stable as they stop messing with it! 

you will update to 11 because it will be free 

[james_s]

you will update to 11 because it will be free 

Windows 10 was "free" and I still haven't "upgraded" to it. I had to use it for a while at a former job and I hated it, it was the most user-hostile operating system I have ever experienced. It felt like it was constantly fighting against me, just wearing me down.

[SilverSolder]

you will update to 11 because it will be free 

Windows 10 was "free" and I still haven't "upgraded" to it. I had to use it for a while at a former job and I hated it, it was the most user-hostile operating system I have ever experienced. It felt like it was constantly fighting against me, just wearing me down.

One problem is that there is a "cost" to changing an OS...  you have muscle memory of where everything is and how everything works, and changing to a new GUI (even if it is better!) requires an investment in time and energy.   Is that investment worth it?  -  when you are young and energetic and excited, it is absolutely worth it.  As you get older and have other responsibilities and many things to do, you learn to prioritize...  what do you want to spend your precious time on?

Another issue is that Windows (and the computer industry in general) has changed direction over the last 20 years.  The focus used to be on improving the performance and capabilities of hardware and applications to solve problems and do work for the user.   Now, the focus is on selling IT as a service to the user...   The users' problems are still being solved, but subtly, the user no longer owns the means of production and has become a "tenant" in cyberspace...    Maybe this is actually a good solution for many (perhaps most) computer users, but not all...

[xrunner]

One of my friends is a Windows Insider and has had Windows 11 for a while. I ran into the issue where the "PC Health Check" told me my CPU (Ryzen 7 1700) was not acceptable for Windows 11. We were talking about why that was, and I asked him the other day what exactly Win 11 does (other than look different) that Windows 10 does not do. What will it do for me that I will be excited about? He basically mumbled for a while and admitted he couldn't answer my question.

 

[rsjsouza]

Sure, there might be a number of positive changes in the long run but, at this moment, it looks to me as one more iteration of the current trend of "change for the sake of change" - similar to what Windows 10 was in relation to Win7.

Well, that and one more step to consolidate Windows as SaaS, just like Windows 10 started and was partially backported to 7 and 8.1.

So, it is a pass for me at the moment, just like 10 was in my personal computers (I use it on a company owned computer).

[ptluis]

One of my friends is a Windows Insider and has had Windows 11 for a while. I ran into the issue where the "PC Health Check" told me my CPU (Ryzen 7 1700) was not acceptable for Windows 11. We were talking about why that was, and I asked him the other day what exactly Win 11 does (other than look different) that Windows 10 does not do. What will it do for me that I will be excited about? He basically mumbled for a while and admitted he couldn't answer my question.

 

I tell you: the need for a new computer, expensive hardware upgrades, new software purchases or cloud subscription, and so on. It has always been like that. We live in a voyeuristic society, so we have voyeuristic operating systems, voyeuristic smartphones and voyeuristic technologies that drive the economy and empower those who control them

But not everything is bad, if you need a stable, secure and more private operating system 10, 11 to develop your projects, just remove most of rubbish, uninstalled or disabled, leaving only the operating system itself, it is very solid it is stable and can even be installed on older computers with single core CPU like the Pentium M, for example.

The other option is to use linux and be happy: - +

[james_s]

If they released an up to date OS with the slick and polished Windows 7 UI and complete control over the updates that's something I would get excited about and would be happy to pay for. Otherwise my computing needs are roughly the same as they were 10 or more years ago and I really strongly dislike change for the sake of change. I also don't like the trend of dumbing everything down and removing options.

[SiliconWizard]

you will update to 11 because it will be free 

Windows 10 was "free" and I still haven't "upgraded" to it. I had to use it for a while at a former job and I hated it, it was the most user-hostile operating system I have ever experienced. It felt like it was constantly fighting against me, just wearing me down.

Same here. So still on 7 and happy with it. Issue though is that software companies have started not just not supporting Win 7 anymore, but releasing software that can't even run on it. Typically not a problem yet with the tools I use. Except for Vivado. I'm not working on Xilinx 7 series projects at the moment, but when I do, I'll see. I'll probably install Vivado on my Linux box and access it via VNC.

I had tried Win 10 though, just to see. Installed it back then on a laptop. To be fair, this laptop had a Win 7 "home" edition, so it got upgraded to 10 home as well, which is the worst of all editions regarding privacy and user control. But anyway, the overal experience was consistantly horrible.

[ptluis]

you will update to 11 because it will be free 

Windows 10 was "free" and I still haven't "upgraded" to it. I had to use it for a while at a former job and I hated it, it was the most user-hostile operating system I have ever experienced. It felt like it was constantly fighting against me, just wearing me down.

Same here. So still on 7 and happy with it. Issue though is that software companies have started not just not supporting Win 7 anymore, but releasing software that can't even run on it. Typically not a problem yet with the tools I use. Except for Vivado. I'm not working on Xilinx 7 series projects at the moment, but when I do, I'll see. I'll probably install Vivado on my Linux box and access it via VNC.

I had tried Win 10 though, just to see. Installed it back then on a laptop. To be fair, this laptop had a Win 7 "home" edition, so it got upgraded to 10 home as well, which is the worst of all editions regarding privacy and user control. But anyway, the overal experience was consistantly horrible.

if you want to use whatever OS, do it on a virtual machine, win 10, 11 also runs fine, like Mac OS, android, etc, or create a multi-boot system on your computer. win 7 is still the best windows version of all, but as I said before, windows 10 without the crapware are really solid. If for some reason any old software doesn't run on it, just run it in compatible mode (win7+Sp1 or win7+sp2) with administrative rights, works for about 98% of old software. but the most practical way is in fact using a virtual machine if your actual system allow it, of course.   The best flavours of win 10 are the LTSC ones, and with some cleaning, really nice.

[rstofer]

Apparently, none of the machines I own, including a couple just a year or two old, are candidates for upgrade.  Something to do with a missing TPM...  It is rumored that Win 11 will run but that Microsoft won't support it.

There's a hardware 'Health Check' utility that will help determine whether a PC can be upgraded and, apparently, mine can't.  Good news and bad, I suppose.  I'm not in the market for a new PC or laptop.

https://www.computerworld.com/article/3631575/how-to-check-if-your-pc-can-run-windows-11.html

Many of the people complaining about the implications of an upgrade need not worry.  Their hardware may not support Win 11 anyway.

[SilverSolder]

I recall when the TPM first came out...  it was widely seen as an intrusive technology.  Now, it is required... even to play Tic Tac Toe on the PC.

Sign of the times...

[ptluis]

I recall when the TPM first came out...  it was widely seen as an intrusive technology.  Now, it is required... even to play Tic Tac Toe on the PC.

Sign of the times...

TPM could easily be bypassed by adding a key to regedit, or your windows installation image, tested on physical machine and virtual machine, so no problem.
search google for "bypass windows tpm" you have lots of tutorials if you don't know how to do it.

[james_s]

I kind of suspect they'll backtrack on the TPM thing eventually, since there seem to be a large number of systems (including most desktops) that don't have it and most people don't seem to even understand what purpose it serves. MS is going to be pushing to get as many people as possible onto their latest OS and this is working against them for no good reason. If they want to recommend a TPM that's fine, but there is no good reason to require it.

[SiliconWizard]

Apparently, none of the machines I own, including a couple just a year or two old, are candidates for upgrade.  Something to do with a missing TPM...  It is rumored that Win 11 will run but that Microsoft won't support it.

You can go through some official "hoops" to force install on a machine that only has a TPM 1.2 module (while TPM 2.0 is normally required), but on a machine with no TPM at all, the hoops are more involved. IIRC, you need to build your own install - some third-party tools exist for this.

Oh and interestingly, related to the other thread about the BIOS issue and TPM, it'll be interesting to see, a few years from now, how many people might get kicked out of their Windows session because they forgot their password and have no way of getting back in whatsoever. I'm smelling that it will happen. I'm pretty sure MS will always help you with that.

[Doctorandus_P]

I've been amazed and astonished by all the stuff you're willing to get shoved down your throats.
I switched to Linux myself quite some years ago and have no intentions to downgrade to windoze.

[ataradov]

LOL. You can't even pick a browser you like anymore - https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows-11/259208/windows-11-to-block-windows-11-browser-workarounds


Imagine if OS opened links in the browser you told it to use?

[james_s]

I've been amazed and astonished by all the stuff you're willing to get shoved down your throats.
I switched to Linux myself quite some years ago and have no intentions to downgrade to windoze.

Well it's great when your needs allow that. For better or worse though, Windows is the industry standard and many people have to use it whether they like it or not. If the software you need only runs on Windows then you use Windows, that's just the simple reality of it. I use Linux on most of my secondary machines but I do still do some things that require Windows so I use Win7.

[Ed.Kloonk]

LOL. You can't even pick a browser you like anymore - https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows-11/259208/windows-11-to-block-windows-11-browser-workarounds


Imagine if OS opened links in the browser you told it to use?

The US govt should step in and stop them from doing this.

[ataradov]

The US govt should step in and stop them from doing this.

They have enough money to buy the government, sell it, and buy it again. At this point they are pretty much immune and free to do whatever they want. The only force that can shift this are the customers, but this is not happening with commercial customers either.

[MathWizard]

I don't even have a cellphone. All too often, my bank, ebay, amazon, and windows, keep asking for 1. And for ebay for example, I'm sure I tried before to list my landline #, but they would not accept it(they have my LL# already of course)....but I don't have a CP, and I'm not getting 1 just to keep registered on ebay/amazon or with win 10/11.

[Ed.Kloonk]

The US govt should step in and stop them from doing this.

They have enough money to buy the government, sell it, and buy it again. At this point they are pretty much immune and free to do whatever they want. The only force that can shift this are the customers, but this is not happening with commercial customers either.

Um.

 

I was referring to that time when they did in fact tell MS to stop doing that. Yet, here we are.

[ataradov]

I was referring to that time when they did in fact tell MS to stop doing that. Yet, here we are.

Yes, but that was more than 20 years ago, and it did not really work. If anything it made them smarter and taught them to buy their senators in advance to eliminate such snags in the future.

If anything, Europe has much higher chance to do something about it, but I really doubt they will. Microsoft's approach is to limit things in small ways, which are individually insignificant to cause action. But on a whole it is a mess.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Indeed.

[BrianHG]

 

[ataradov]

Yes, seeing that video made me happy, since I know there is a product out there that can undo the crap new UI. If I'm ever forced to use W11, I'm installing that 100%.

Using third-party launcher on Android made all the difference. Google can no longer fuck up my experience with their updates.

[Wuerstchenhund]

So, a few people had played a bit with the leaked Win 11... but now that's it's officially out, is there anyone here who has installed it and uses it as a daily driver?
If so, what are your thoughts?

I have now converted all but one computer to Windows 11. Simply because, in my view, Windows 11 is a much better OS than Windows 10 has ever been. And that was true even for the last beta before release.

I know many people scoff at the UI changes, but the fact is that Windows 11 is the first Windows which has a single UI which works equally well with keyboard/mouse on the desktop and with touch interaction. Windows 8/8.1 was too touch-centric (and there were very few native touch apps back then) and in Windows 10 MS converted that to two alternative UIs of which the touch version was actually made worse over the predecessor version.

I also like the cleaned up settings (the various iterations in Windows 10 were a mess). Plus the system sounds are now a lot less annoying 

BTW, I'm typing this on a 2015 Dell Venue Pro 11" tablet/convertible which is pretty low-spec (Core-M, 4GB RAM, 128GB SSD, TPM2) and which was originally sold with Windows 8.1. Using it with Windows 8.1 was OK but the lack of touch-capable apps was a problem, and with Windows 10 the whole user experience just sucks. Windows 11 on the other hand, which I just installed out of boredom, has turned out to be the perfect OS for this thing. The UI works absolutely fine, and for the first time even the changes between the different modes (tablet, laptop, docked/desktop) work seamlessly. The performance is fine for standard web/office/Netflix stuff, the batteries last longer than under Windows 10. Thanks to Windows 11 the tablet is no longer collecting dust but is now in active use by myself and others (without Windows 11 this thing would still be sitting in a drawer, unused).

As to the other PCs I installed Windows 11 on, these are all officially unsupported systems (I did only fresh installs, no upgrades, but also did not use any hacks/workarounds). The oldest PC is a HP z620 Ivy Bridge E XEON workstation with TPM 1.2 and Geforce GTX 770. Windows 11 runs completely fine, including TPM support and even HVCI enabled. There are several Haswell E machines with TPM 2.0 and newer Geforce and Quadro graphics as well. All work just fine and better than Windows 10 ever did. The only exception is one machine running Windows 10 Enterprise, and this one is only waiting for the Win 11 Enterprise version to become released (which will be early 2022).

One thing I should mention is that HVCI, which even on Ivy Bridge only causes negligible performance loss (tested and found less than 5% under various benchmarks), only works when all drivers follow the DCH model. While this is the case even for older Nvidia cards like my GTX 770 (for which there's a Win 11 driver from Nvidia), the drivers of older intel graphics variants seem to be stuck with the classic driver model. As a consequence, HVCI can't be enabled if the system has an intel iGPU, unless it's a newer one (Gen 6 or newer I believe).

[Bud]

Decent guy but gets bigger with every new video 

[BBBbbb]

The US govt should step in and stop them from doing this.

They have enough money to buy the government, sell it, and buy it again. At this point they are pretty much immune and free to do whatever they want. The only force that can shift this are the customers, but this is not happening with commercial customers either.

Um.

 

I was referring to that time when they did in fact tell MS to stop doing that. Yet, here we are.

But times have changed, and not for better.
Why wouldn't MS feel entitled to do this? Just look at the mobile OSes (iOS and Android) they are a forced bundle clusterfuck.
Edge is not that bad (have to use it at work for some company internal tools) but with these moves they trigger people to treat it as a same garbage IE is.

https://xkcd.com/1118/

[themadhippy]

The US govt should step in and stop them from doing this.

And bite the hand that feeds them? Depending which source you look at microsoft is either the second or third most popular stock held by members of congress.

[james_s]

Edge is only halfway decent now because it's just Chrome with a different skin. The original Edge was garbage though, a classic example of the fact that you only get one shot at a first impression and they dropped the ball. It was released half baked and most people hated it. The more they try to force it on people now the more they will resist.

[rsjsouza]

Indeed Edge's release was unbelievably botched: the IE11 compatibility mode was triggered on most websites I visited, leaving the sour taste of lipstick on a pig.

[SiliconWizard]

Agreed. One very annoying thing, though, is that some (fortunately, not many) web sites only work correctly with Edge, and exhibit various bugs using any other browser. I admit the situation was way worse back when IE was popular and had all those non-standard features than web designers were using, but it still happens.

[ataradov]

some (fortunately, not many) web sites only work correctly with Edge, and exhibit various bugs using any other browser.

What sites? Edge has 3-4% market share. Who is going to be crazy enough to design site that only works in that pile of garbage?

[IanB]

Edge is only halfway decent now

I happened to launch Edge on a Windows 10 machine the other day, because I wanted a fresh clean browser with no history, and oh boy, was it annoying! I dropped it like a hot potato and will never launch it again.

[IanB]

As to the other PCs I installed Windows 11 on, these are all officially unsupported systems

Out of curiosity, how did this work? Did the Windows installer just proceed without protest? Or did the hardware actually meet the Windows 11 pre-requisites, even if not documented as such?

[Ranayna]

When you do a blank slate install, many "hard" requirements are actually optional. Either directly without modification, or with slight modifications of the ini.

But there is a catch: While security patches will come in, none of the major upgrades will be able to install automatically. You would have to reinstall the System for each of those, and no one knows when MS will "plug the holes" on the workarounds.
For me, Windows 11 would never be worth *that* hassle.

As long as the taskbar customizations do not come back, i will never install it on any machine under my control. At work i will surely be forced to install it at some point, but i hope that MS fixes the taskbar by that time. I could not care less about the startmenu though. The search works adequately well, and common programs are placed on a custom toolbar on the taskbar.

[SiliconWizard]

some (fortunately, not many) web sites only work correctly with Edge, and exhibit various bugs using any other browser.

What sites? Edge has 3-4% market share. Who is going to be crazy enough to design site that only works in that pile of garbage?

One of my banks, for instance. Very annoying.
Haven't tested all possible browsers of course. But it happens to work fine with Edge, and not with Firefox or Chromium.

[james_s]

I happened to launch Edge on a Windows 10 machine the other day, because I wanted a fresh clean browser with no history, and oh boy, was it annoying! I dropped it like a hot potato and will never launch it again.

I have not actually tried it myself since the early days of Win10 when I was forced to use it at work, I've only casually followed and knew it was now more or less a reskin of Chrome. I almost don't know why they even bother, it's so clear Microsoft lost the most recent browser war. The percentage of Win10 users using Edge is/was in the single digits, despite the fact that it was the default and they went out of their way to make it difficult to switch.

[MrMobodies]

I happened to launch Edge on a Windows 10 machine the other day, because I wanted a fresh clean browser with no history, and oh boy, was it annoying! I dropped it like a hot potato and will never launch it again.

I have not actually tried it myself since the early days of Win10 when I was forced to use it at work, I've only casually followed and knew it was now more or less a reskin of Chrome. I almost don't know why they even bother, it's so clear Microsoft lost the most recent browser war. The percentage of Win10 users using Edge is/was in the single digits, despite the fact that it was the default and they went out of their way to make it difficult to switch.

I remembered at a firm, when I disabled the updates in about 2013 due to them breaking stuff where I had to restore it back from a disk image frequently  and it also happened one of the Surface RT tablets and it broke the touchpad and other stuff and after a factory reset. In a warehouse, 4 machines with Nvidia graphics card drivers mistakenly targeted for a GPU no longer supported caused them to go into bluescreen. I set it ignore the driver as it came in from the Windows update but they igot nstalled again. So I thought I'd manually update stuff from now on.

In 2015 I was hearing about Microsoft abusing this Windows update by loading Windows 10 on it. Then I had many customers with laptops around my house unable to boot and found the last activity on quite a few was a folder called "Panther" and a partial installation of the new operating system. I found by renaming the windows 7 folder back to "Windows" sometimes worked again so it looked like for those the work was not done on the bootloader for Windows 10 to properly start.

After two years of tweaking stuff I managed to get a  Windows 10 Enterprise 2019 LTSC copy pretty much to the way I want but still some work to do on it.

When I want another copy all I do is just copy that one over.

I was thinking that with the "app store" and the constant updating and changing of everything in there in the background (in the Home and Pro editions) why not just call them "WINDOWS LIVE" instead.

[james_s]

When they started abusing Windows Update to push Win10 out that's when I decided I'd had enough and disabled it completely, never looked back. They instantly threw away all of the trust they had built up over a decade or so for Windows Update.

[PKTKS]

. If they want to recommend a TPM that's fine, but there is no good reason to require it.

There is absolute none

This a tracking device at least..
A back door probably

Paul

[ataradov]

This a tracking device at least..
A back door probably

While there are not too many benefits from TPM, especially for home users, it is not a tracking device or a backdoor. There is no need to spread this nonsense.

[PKTKS]

This a tracking device at least..
A back door probably

While there are not too many benefits from TPM, especially for home users, it is not a tracking device or a backdoor. There is no need to spread this nonsense.

Well...   it is not a secret that BLACK BOXES are not to be considered secure..

The other way around .. I deal with MS "folks" long enough to assume
if they made another black box and made that mandatory...

it should be a tracking device and probably allows "indemnification" 
(using their own terms) probably pushed by underneath business they do not disclosure

I ditched all this non sense by 90s and got really rid of them by early 2000s

Nevertheless things do not seem to change.

This whole post is a laugh.. a shit show..

Very very easy to just tell them to fuck off...

Paul

[SiliconWizard]

A TPM can't act as any kind of backdoor in itself indeed.
Note that MS has actually been requiring TPM 2.0 since 2016 (so, for Win 10) for all OEM installations. So the requirement is not quite new - they were just not requiring it for upgrades and non-OEM installs.
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/device-experiences/oem-tpm

Another thought is that if not required by the mere will of MS or another particular vendor, chances are that TPMs (and other forms of improved security measures) are not unlikely to become mandatory from regulations one of these days. I wouldn't be hugely surprised for instance if the EU didn't make it mandatory to include TPMs in any sold computer within a few years. (And if this is already in the pipe, please forgive my ignorance but recognize my foresight )

Now is that a good thing? I have mixed feelings about it.

[PKTKS]

Don't miss by any chance the real requirement: UEFI integration

MS has done the shit hell to make difficult (really ..) to boot anything..
apart their own stuff. The landlord model won't last if so.

UEFI can boot anything using HTTP !!! as long as induced to do so.
TPM was just a shallow piece of the schema.

By trust or identify and manage the most critical piece of PCs.
(aka UEFI is like flashing an MCU for a CPU...) you can literally do anything.

No surprises. They have really messed the PC hardware  trying to hold
users (OWNERS) hostage of their business..

If they do not own the hardware control...
they can not push the licensee schema ..
DRM schema...

and dictate what the owner can and can not do with the hardware.

The other fruit ... made a choice to own the hardware and lock out even repair-mans...
and people still pay for these shits...

It seems to me that is being a question of time until they lock the PC hardware again..
for good with these UEFI+TPM   identification and "TRUSTY"  schema

Paul

[SiliconWizard]

and dictate what the owner can and can not do with the hardware.

Yeah, that's part of my mixed feelings about it all. While I'm all for good security, all the other implications, such as the ones you mentioned, are horrible.

And as I mentioned, at least I sincerely hope this will strictly remain vendor requirements (even if this already can be a pain and metastasize to other vendors or even become a de facto standard quickly (see indeend the UEFI thing...) But the second it becomes a requirement by LAW - this is something else, and I hope this never happens. But seeing how things are going, I wouldn't hold my breath.

[ptluis]

you're all forgetting iOS and Android that monitors your actions up to the bones, you're all loosing your brains 

[Ed.Kloonk]

you're all forgetting iOS and Android that monitors your actions up to the bones, you're all loosing your brains 

That doesn't mean it's alright for the PC do it.

[MrMobodies]

No surprises. They have really messed the PC hardware  trying to hold
users (OWNERS) hostage of their business..

and dictate what the owner can and can not do with the hardware.

Reminds me of a service called SBSCORE that I found in a 2003 Small Business Server edition...

As I remember once this service is running it will;
If you don't want to install the active directory/domain controller from the next cd, it will eventually shut down.
If there is a broadcast message or something from another machine indicating that is it running a domain controller on the same network it will report it to the logs about violating the license agreement and shut down.

Removing the SBSCORE service stops that but at first I had problems trying to shut it down and get rid of it. It basically held them to ransom. Close SBSCORE.exe and it will shut down and they set the permissions to prevent it being removed and also once it started. So I tooK the drive out, connect it to a sata controller, remove sbscore.exe and the other associated files in the same name and the service, removed them from registry, put it drive back in and it was perfectly fine after that. All we were using it for was a backup file server.

A simple warning in the logs to indicate a license violation but shutting it down like that...

I class that as malware/rootkit like behaviour.

[bson]

Presumably all W11 system components are attestable, meaning they need to match a certain hash to execute.  Replacing that hash in turn requires the cooperation of an installer, which is also an attestable component.  And so on - this creates a chain of trust, all the way back to the secure boot.  Having this in turn permits for example a game vendor of an online game to prevent cheating by tampering with executables or inserting cheats.  It can prevent everything form circumventing licensing to prevent malware from executing automatically.  MS might do like Apple and refuse to permit bypassing the chain of trust for kernel components like drivers and certain executables - which is about the only downside to the scheme.  (In tech speak, Apple kernel components have to be notarized with a developer certificate.)  For something like a game or other software you'll likely be able to bypass it, but if you do you may not be able to use it for online play for example as you might have a cheat installed.

[ptluis]

you're all forgetting iOS and Android that monitors your actions up to the bones, you're all loosing your brains 

That doesn't mean it's alright for the PC do it.

Anything that is created to control us is bad. And when it's free, there's always something hidden. When Microsoft kindly offered Windows 7, 8 users the free upgrade to the new version 10, they actually offered us a Trojan horse. If I develop software, I don't want any crap spy software controlling my work or my life. The solution is not to upgrade and if you really need version 10 or 11, create a dual boot system or use a VM machine. or better yet, a second PC. Win 10, 11 and all future versions are rubbish if they continue to follow this strategy

[coromonadalix]

The way Msoft had us is by setting up windows 10  "as a service",   now  where stuck with telemetry and publicity / tracking  etc .... 

I'm using a few softwares to kill most of them, but thats not enough, i'm on Entreprise and we had the possibility to completly kill telemetry, i have to check if thru win10 updates, Msoft has played new tricks again


Same for Win11, in no way i find this OS productive, it's more restrictive than ever for the menus / contexts  etc ...  you have to battle the ''OS'' to choose a web browser, what a joke.


"They" know that and will set/get things harder for us to choose how we want this OS to work and act the WAY I WANT, no their way

Running it on a i5-8500 for tests purposes  (sure it has no tpm for now) but not impressed at all 

[ptluis]

The way Msoft had us is by setting up windows 10  "as a service",   now  where stuck with telemetry and publicity / tracking  etc .... 

I'm using a few softwares to kill most of them, but thats not enough, i'm on Entreprise and we had the possibility to completly kill telemetry, i have to check if thru win10 updates, Msoft has played new tricks again


Same for Win11, in no way i find this OS productive, it's more restrictive than ever for the menus / contexts  etc ...  you have to battle the ''OS'' to choose a web browser, what a joke.


"They" know that and will set/get things harder for us to choose how we want this OS to work and act the WAY I WANT, no their way

Running it on a i5-8500 for tests purposes  (sure it has no tpm for now) but not impressed at all

My friends for those who don't want to "clean" every feature manually there's a tool similar to the old "XP Antispy" that's called "ShutUp10++".
Read it carefully, create a windows restore point then make a backup of your current settings, using shutup10, before doing any changes. You'll see the amount of trash that comes with the OS. Regarding Automatic Updates even if you completely disable this feature, it's not 100% disabled and MS find a way of activating again. It happened more than once with the LTSC version on the company. But anyway we get rid off most of the junk that stutters our computers and net connections. There are other ways of blocking autoupdate feature like creating a localhost loop for example.

ShutUp10++
https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10

[SiliconWizard]

The way Msoft had us is by setting up windows 10  "as a service",   now  where stuck with telemetry and publicity / tracking  etc .... 

Yep. But it's a general trend in the software world. Not just MS. And unfortunately, while a few people like us would gladly pay (as long as it's not unreasonable) for software that we actually "own" and won't spy on us, I guess most people these days don't want to pay for software anymore. So this is a tough industry.

[BrianHG]

 

[SiliconWizard]

The better multi-monitor support is just hilarious. Windows had perfectly fine multi-support monitor until they totally screwed it up in Win 8 and 10. Then getting back to something a bit better is sure a tremendous achievement!

[MrMobodies]

Regarding Automatic Updates even if you completely disable this feature, it's not 100% disabled and MS find a way of activating again. It happened more than once with the LTSC version on the company. But anyway we get rid off most of the junk that stutters our computers and net connections. There are other ways of blocking autoupdate feature like creating a localhost loop for example. ShutUp10++
https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10

There is NO WAY I am willing to put up with that behaviour.

I have found their ways of how they get it turned back on. I managed to sort a Pro edition by disabling and stripping a lot of things out of it in 2019 with a lot of anger and frustration to a point where I started to see stars in my eyes:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/general-computing/windows-10-update-aggro/

I would take the disk in and out, do a backup, disable a group services I suspect maybe the culprit, put it back to find out if the Windows updater would turn back on secretly, and find what doesn't work as a result.

Sorted out a 2016 LTSB but I found that the LTSC 2019 was a lot of work.

Three services re-enables the "Windows update" service.

Waasmedic.exe (can be removed) 
Uscore USOSVC (that runs within the new netframe pcsettings thing but not practical to remove that. When going into pc settings and update it would just quit.
Rempl  (can be removed)
Just remembered another one:
OSRSS (can be removed)

To make it easier to obtain permissions:
https://www.tenforums.com/attachments/tutorials/314256d1610376708-add-take-ownership-context-menu-windows-10-a-add_take_ownership_to_context_menu.reg

When Usosvc runs, it would use the "SYSTEM" account to reset permissions into C:\Windows\System32\Tasks\Microsoft\Windows\updateorchestrator which is set to deny write permissions to user accounts and it's registry equvialent (using "Trusted Installer")

I took the disk out and connected up to another one running Windows 7:
I found the copy of Windows 10 Pro was on a GPT partition and I had to convert it to a basic disk to be able to do anything and then convert it back afterwards I was finished. They say you can't but I happened to do so, just don't clean disk. (Can't remember all the details.)

Mount the system registry and find USOSVC to set
Find USOCORE, USOSVC in registry settng and set  type to 10 (to give 16) and set type to 4 to disable for now so it can't reset the permissions.

I removed rempl, Waas medic,osrss, services in registry system/currentcontrolset/services (present on LTSC), that turns on the Windows update.


That will then allow you to set startup type, I think I also set system deny permission to write to that key.

In: C:\Windows\System32\Tasks\Microsoft\Windows\updateorchestrator, take ownership open notepad or text editor, copy the names down, save it to the drive and delete everything in the folder.
Go into the registry and search for \Microsoft\Windows\UpdateOrchestrator\
remove everything in there but don't delete the key.

Then search for the components on that list like this one:
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Schedule\TaskCache\Tasks\Microsoft\Windows\UpdateOrchestrator

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Schedule\TaskCache\Tasks\{A20E027D-A9EE-4CFF-B07B-98990E3C4602}
\Microsoft\Windows\UpdateOrchestrator\USO_UxBroker_ReadyToReboot


Remove everything in there and note the names down.

Now put back the drive, find the keys again in registry, go into permissions, set deny to "Trusted Installer" and read only for system.
Set read only permissions for "SYSTEM" account "C:\Windows\System32\Tasks\Microsoft\Windows\updateorchestrator"

I didn't have to do any of that in an LTSB version.

Now when starting USOSVC it shouldn't be able to rewrite it's entries and default everything.

See screenshot of one I got perfect and behaves which is my template copy.
When I want another copy I just copy that and buy a key to save a lot of work and aggravation.

Thats not the only thing, there are other stuff I removed like some telemetry components that don't seem to respect group policies, certain notifications and annoyances.

[blacksheeplogic]

Enabling metered connection I have found resolves any further requested updates/reboots. It's held up over time, nothing else I tried worked after allowing a update though.

Regarding Automatic Updates even if you completely disable this feature, it's not 100% disabled and MS find a way of activating again. It happened more than once with the LTSC version on the company. But anyway we get rid off most of the junk that stutters our computers and net connections. There are other ways of blocking autoupdate feature like creating a localhost loop for example. ShutUp10++
https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10

There is NO WAY I am willing to put up with that behaviour.

I have found their ways of how they get it turned back on. I managed to sort a Pro edition by disabling and stripping a lot of things out of it in 2019 with a lot of anger and frustration to a point where I started to see stars in my eyes:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/general-computing/windows-10-update-aggro/

[blacksheeplogic]

Presumably all W11 system components are attestable, meaning they need to match a certain hash to execute.  Replacing that hash in turn requires the cooperation of an installer, which is also an attestable component.  And so on - this creates a chain of trust, all the way back to the secure boot.  Having this in turn permits for example a game vendor of an online game to prevent cheating by tampering with executables or inserting cheats.  It can prevent everything form circumventing licensing to prevent malware from executing automatically.  MS might do like Apple and refuse to permit bypassing the chain of trust for kernel components like drivers and certain executables - which is about the only downside to the scheme.  (In tech speak, Apple kernel components have to be notarized with a developer certificate.)  For something like a game or other software you'll likely be able to bypass it, but if you do you may not be able to use it for online play for example as you might have a cheat installed.

There is some goodness. But for the average home user or small business I don't see the benefit and it means a convoluted and being subject to extortion/terms. You can't be just a independent developer these days without giving away a cut and agreeing to one sided terms.  I do develop on Windows still but I'm being paid to do it. My own development is all ARM/Linux.

[james_s]

There is NO WAY I am willing to put up with that behaviour.

I have found their ways of how they get it turned back on. I managed to sort a Pro edition by disabling and stripping a lot of things out of it in 2019 with a lot of anger and frustration to a point where I started to see stars in my eyes:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/general-computing/windows-10-update-aggro/

The fact that you even have to contemplate jumping through such hoops is completely ridiculous. There is really no reasonable excuse for not having a "Yes I really know what I'm doing now leave me alone and don't ever *#&@ing update!" setting.

[PKTKS]

That REGISTRY  shit gives me nauseas...

Paul

[MrMobodies]

That REGISTRY  shit gives me nauseas...

Paul

Well all I do is take the drive out, plug it into another one, do a disk image using Marcrium Reflect and copy it to another drive to make sure that there is nothing wrong with the disk image. I would unplug the network card or wifi just incase it causes Windows reactivation.

Unhide hidden and operating systems files which I have set by fetault.
Then I copy c:\windows\system32\config to say an external storage drive say d:\<name of machine>\reg\<date>
and also the profiles too c:\users\<username> d:\<name of machine>\profiles\<date> but have to unselect the junction points if doing it manually but there are switches in robocopy for that if you want backup using a script.

That is just incase I bugger something up or I don't get the result I want out of mass experimenting.

[Wuerstchenhund]

As to the other PCs I installed Windows 11 on, these are all officially unsupported systems

Out of curiosity, how did this work? Did the Windows installer just proceed without protest? Or did the hardware actually meet the Windows 11 pre-requisites, even if not documented as such?

I simply did a fresh install, no hacks no tricks. There were no checks if the hardware is "supported", it just installed like Windows 10 and earlier versions did.

Admittedly, all computers do have a TPM in some form, some have a TPM 1.2, others a TPM 2.0. But that's pretty much it.

Some of the systems I installed from the pre-release beta, and so far all the updates installed fine (including the 21H2 Sun Valley update from a few days ago). And I don't expect any problems with upgrades to new releases as these will start from Windows 11 already, not Windows 10.

[Wuerstchenhund]

When you do a blank slate install, many "hard" requirements are actually optional. Either directly without modification, or with slight modifications of the ini.

But there is a catch: While security patches will come in, none of the major upgrades will be able to install automatically. You would have to reinstall the System for each of those, and no one knows when MS will "plug the holes" on the workarounds

You are extrapolating from what is necessary to upgrade from Windows 10 to Windows 11 on an unsupported system, but that doesn't make it the same for upgrading to the next Win 11 release on an unsupported system that is already running Windows 11. In fact, there is no indication that, once you installed Windows 11 on an unsupported system, that you couldn't just install new release updates afterwards (and I did that when upgrading from pre-releases to the final Win 11 version on my systems).

[Wuerstchenhund]

The better multi-monitor support is just hilarious. Windows had perfectly fine multi-support monitor until they totally screwed it up in Win 8 and 10. Then getting back to something a bit better is sure a tremendous achievement!

Multi-monitor support on older Windows versions always sucked donkey balls, it only "fine" if your requirements were little more than just having two identical monitors side by side with no change.

The first version where transition between multiple states without reboot was even supposed to work was Windows 7, but in reality it simply just didn't. If you were lucky you could connect an external display and it would be identified correctly, most of the time any alterations would be gone, and when disconnecting and reconnecting displays open apps had to be manually reshuffled.

The latter was supposed to be solved in Windows 10, just that it wasn't.

In Windows 11, that finally works fine now as it did for years on macOS. On the tablet/convertible I have, I can now seamlessly change between tablet mode, laptop mode and docked mode (docking station with additional monitor), and not only detects Windows 11 the mode correctly but it also restores all the app windows as they have been set for each mode.

Also, not having to deal with the shitshow that was the Windows 10 split UI (a poor one for desktop mode and another, truly crap one for touch mode) is a godsend on a tablet/convertible.