new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004

[Pinkus]

I'm getting a visit from the UK product manager and someone from the German office tomorrow, to talk about opinions on UI and usage  etc - if anyone has any specific questions/suggestions let me know.

This is good to hear. I really like companies which are listening to the customer (as long as they are not just listening but also reacting). Let me give some input:

First I should mention, that I did not had the chance for a hands on session of this scope. Though I saw your and others videos ... enough to see what I like and what not.

Let me mention a few aspects (some has been mentioned before by Mike and/or others) which are annoying me even before I used the scope:

• The touch screen lag is not nice. It really could be more responsive.
• 20% of all male are having some issue with color blindless. Due to the color coded light knobs (=no single vertical knobs) it became pretty difficult/impossible to see, which channel is selected. Especially here with the missing knobs, user defined channel colors are a must so people may select what they can recognize the easiest!!! Otherwise 20% of all male will swear a lot because of this 'color feature' when using the RTB2000.
• Please integrate more math options. Just the basic calculations are lame. Even the cheapest $300 Rigol can do more.
• Having an measurement option of showing a bitrate of a given serial signal would be nice (thus you see e.g. 19200 bps - you do not need to calculate). Remark: I might already be there and I just did not see it in the videos.
• There should be some option of dimming menus (making them transparent or hide them or whatever) so you can see how a changed setting is affecting the signal display.

There is one more issue (definately for me and for probably others a show stopper), but I will send it to Mike as a PM first - he may provide it to the Product Manager if he likes and maybe he gets some positive feedback from the Product Manager. I will not write it in public (yet) as it is not my intention to hurt R&S if this is going to be changed anyway.

Finally I should mention that I really like the fact, that R&S did invest resources for a better user interface. Thumbs up for this 

[norks]

I second asking R&S whether the ethernet and usb transfer speeds people reported are truly representative of the scope's limits. I was hoping it would be possible to have PC access to the data in seconds where a script could do some additional processing and give you those more complex math transforms they didn't put in the scope, and really go beyond with any formula you can think of.

[blacksheeplogic]

I'm getting a visit from the UK product manager and someone from the German office tomorrow, to talk about opinions on UI and usage  etc - if anyone has any specific questions/suggestions let me know.

Not a Worldwide issue I'm sure, but at least here (New Zealand) they don't seem that interested in selling these scopes at least in one off quantities. Could not get a base price and never got a quote. Looking online, could not even get a feel for cost and if there was any special pricing fully optioned.

Just placed an order for a DSOX3024T + 16 channel MSO, Application Bundle, and Lan/VGA, local Keysight distributor returned the quote same day and called. Online, I was able to get a feel for pricing, quote turned out a little less than expected due to bundle pricing.

Might seem like a small point but for me a new scope was a large investment and I need the reassurance that the company/distributor will answer an email or return a call.

[Octane]

I would like to see:

- Some work on the responsiveness of the GUI. If necessary get rid of the menu animations.
- Transparent menus if it doesn't collide with the first point.
- I second the vote for sample memory length display in the top right.
- Better accessibility of the trigger hold-off setting.
- More advanced math functions. It is really a shame for a scope of this category.

And of course fixing all the bugs that Mike and Dave discovered.

Michael

[Hydron]

As I haven't used the scope in person yet, I didn't comment on the UI performance earlier, but some general observations (most probably pretty obvious) below:

- Most users will have spent thousands of hours interacting with a smooth, responsive and refined touchscreen UI that they carry around in a pocket
- Anyone building something else with a touch UI will be automatically compared to that, whether it is fair or not, so UI will always be critical to the user impression of the device
- If it's (technically and economically) feasible to build a scope using Android as a base (like higher end systems use windows), maybe that would help solve a lot of the UI responsiveness issues without having to re-do all the work and optimisation that has gone into the problem in the past. I think a number of car entertainment systems do this but don't advertise what they are built on.
- Experienced users will already know where the button they want is going to appear on the menu they bring up. Any animation should be shorter than the time required to re-position the user's finger over the next button. If not, there should be an option to disable them.

This is not a criticism of the R&S effort/implementation (as I said, I haven't used it in person, and it sounds like a lot of the UI design is done extremely well) but a few of my thoughts about the different expectations and challenges of going from knobs and buttons to a touch UI.

[piranha32]

I'm getting a visit from the UK product manager and someone from the German office tomorrow, to talk about opinions on UI and usage  etc - if anyone has any specific questions/suggestions let me know.

+1 for reducing, or adding an option to switch off animations.
Sliding menus look flashy and add bling to the UI, but for proficient users they only get in the way and become an annoying obstacle.

[JoHr]

Having an measurement option of showing a bitrate of a given serial signal would be nice (thus you see e.g. 19200 bps - you do not need to calculate). Remark: I might already be there and I just did not see it in the videos.

... nice one. I´ve never seen a bitrate measurement on scopes yet. I usualy take a pulse width measurement with statistics.

[Pinkus]

Having an measurement option of showing a bitrate of a given serial signal would be nice (thus you see e.g. 19200 bps - you do not need to calculate). Remark: I might already be there and I just did not see it in the videos.

... nice one. I´ve never seen a bitrate measurement on scopes yet. I usualy take a pulse width measurement with statistics.

Keysight DSOX2K / DSOX3K does have it since firmware 2.4 I think (I am too lazy now to get the exact firmware number). The new 1000 series of Keysight probably comes with it too.
See screenshot attached. I often find this very handy! The measurement to choose of is called bit-rate and here on my screen shot it shows the 19.200 baud UART signal correctly with 19.2kbps (though depending of the horizontal time base it might show not 19.2 but 19.3 or 19.5 .... but as you usually just want to have an idea about if you need to set your serial protocol analyzer to 9.600 or 19.200 or 38.000 it is good enough).

[mikeselectricstuff]

Just spent a couple of hours with the Jithu (UK manager) and Joel (strategic planner and responsible for much of the UI design).

Pretty much everything that has been mentioned here and other things on my fairly long list had either already been raised by others, was acknowledged as issues that need looking at.

Joel seemed particularly interested in fine details of history mode, but I commented that there's a lot of more important things to focus on first!
He wasn't sure if transparent menus are possible due to graphics hardware limitations.

Limitation on decoding 2-way buses were already under discussion, as to whether they should increase number of busses or make UART and SPI 2-way. Adding "4-wire SPI and 2-way UART" was one possible solution. I did point out that the  Rigol does two 2-way decodes.

One thing that looks good for the long term is they are planning a higher-end model which will use the same software base, so we can expect improvements and updates to percolate down from this development. (This is also the reason for all the empty space in the case).

Slightly embarrassing moment when I first turned it on in front of them and it crashed -  one tip is that you can force a factory reset by holding the PRESET button when the splash screen appears. 
 
 

[nctnico]

No word on making the pricing more competitive?

[mikeselectricstuff]

No word on making the pricing more competitive?

Not their department, though they did agree that option pricing was silly, and serial decode should be standard these days ( I did mention Siglent have jumped on this one).

They do seem keen to get into the market, to replace Tek as "the other big-brand scope people" (my words), so I think we may see more promos in the future.
 

[Robaroni]

"20% of all male are having some issue with color blindless. Due to the color coded light knobs (=no single vertical knobs) it b and ecame pretty difficult/impossible to see, which channel is selected. Especially here with the missing knobs, user defined channel colors are a must so people may select what they can recognize the easiest!!! Otherwise 20% of all male will swear a lot because of this 'color feature' when using the RTB2000."

I like the single knob set up. Less cluttered screen, simple to use and easy to set. I prefer it over a knob for each channel.Color blind? Really? Give me something to work with!

I've been putting this scope through its paces and I'm totally happy with it. Sure there are small things I would change but it's a really good scope in a lot of areas. I'm sure those of you who don't like it could easily sell it for more than you paid.

I do mostly serial decoding and the RTB2000 is the cat's meow.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Oh, and it's manufactured in the Czech republic.

[Robaroni]

No word on making the pricing more competitive?

Not their department, though they did agree that option pricing was silly, and serial decode should be standard these days ( I did mention Siglent have jumped on this one).

They do seem keen to get into the market, to replace Tek as "the other big-brand scope people" (my words), so I think we may see more promos in the future.
 

Mike,
Siglent also uses cheap capacitors and inferior materials. So you get more options but the scope doesn't last as long? If they include decoding then the price has to go up, they make a quality scope they have to make their money somewhere. Not everyone needs decoding so the people who don't save on options they don't need. What happens is everyone gets a cheaper scope to start. They make a great product, let them make their money, that's what I say. Even with full pricing it comes in well under the Keysight with the same options.

[tautech]

Siglent also uses cheap capacitors and inferior materials.

You'd better qualify those remarks, if you can. 

At least Siglent don't use a highly reflective glass on their displays. 

[nctnico]

Even with full pricing it comes in well under the Keysight with the same options.

That doesn't say Keysight is good value for money. IMHO there is a market for full featured scopes in the $2000 to $5000 range and manufacturers finally start to step into this segment.

[Robaroni]

Siglent also uses cheap capacitors and inferior materials.

You'd better qualify those remarks, if you can. 

At least Siglent don't use a highly reflective glass on their displays. 

Rusty metal edges on interior chassis parts. Low grade electrolytic caps.

Do you have the RTB2000 scope? The display is one of the clearest, sharpest ones I've seen. I have no problem with the reflective glass. I clean it with "Invisible Glass" once and a while and as I've said here before once you focus on the screens info you forget it's glossy. I have scopes with frosted screens and I prefer the R&S.

I think engineers have to just use this thing for awhile. I've watched videos where people complain about this function or that function of an instrument that really are meaningless. Use something everyday and you learn to work with the differences from one brand to another to the point that they have very little if any overall effect.
The more I use this scope the more comfortable I become with the ergonomics and that let's me do real work. Add that to the build quality (do you actually think Siglent is built as well as R&S?) and you have a real instrument that you can rely on day in and day out. Why do you think the industry uses Tek, Keysight and R&S? The buggers last! The HP 34401a is still going strong and still selling on eBay for a good price.

[tautech]

Siglent also uses cheap capacitors and inferior materials.

You'd better qualify those remarks, if you can. 

At least Siglent don't use a highly reflective glass on their displays. 

Rusty metal edges on interior chassis parts.

And a Tek TDS2012B I have has rust on the chassis edges too. Your point is ?

Low grade electrolytic caps.

I have seen none fail or heard of any that have. Siglent use Leylon caps in their in-house designed and built PSU's and have for some time.
But I suppose the Nichicon caps they use in the mainboards could give trouble but I've not heard of any fail either.
Maybe some engineer just might know where to use what, don't you think ?

Do you have the RTB2000 scope? The display is one of the clearest, sharpest ones I've seen.

No and I studied this thread from it's inception and most of the Vids and all show too shiny glass IMO.
Fine if you need a mirror to comb your hair with but as you get older there's a chance you don't need a comb or a mirror glass scope.

[nctnico]

No and I studied this thread from it's inception and most of the Vids and all show too shiny glass IMO.
Fine if you need a mirror to comb your hair with but as you get older there's a chance you don't need a comb or a mirror glass scope.

IMHO you are overreacting. A glossy screen isn't a problem because most of what reflects in it is out of focus anyway. Apple tends to agree otherwise they wouldn't put glossy screens in their devices. Heck, if glossy displays where such a problem to use they wouldn't exist!

[Robaroni]

Even with full pricing it comes in well under the Keysight with the same options.

That doesn't say Keysight is good value for money. IMHO there is a market for full featured scopes in the $2000 to $5000 range and manufacturers finally start to step into this segment.

No one is questioning this and how are they doing it? I think the guys who deserve the kudos are AD, etc., they keep coming out with great chips that make manufacturers look like stars. We will only get better stuff, cheaper stuff but I'd rather have that in a Keysight, etc. than a Chinese (at least for the time  being) product.
Is Keysight a good value? Don't we have to look at a lot of other parameters? How well it holds up, how well it maintains tolerances, resale, etc. Look at the prices of Keysight stuff on eBay, then go look at the price of used Chinese equipment on eBay.

[Robaroni]

Siglent also uses cheap capacitors and inferior materials.

You'd better qualify those remarks, if you can. 

At least Siglent don't use a highly reflective glass on their displays. 

Rusty metal edges on interior chassis parts.

And a Tek TDS2012B I have has rust on the chassis edges too. Your point is ?

Low grade electrolytic caps.

I have seen none fail or heard of any that have. Siglent use Leylon caps in their in-house designed and built PSU's and have for some time.
But I suppose the Nichicon caps they use in the mainboards could give trouble but I've not heard of any fail either.
Maybe some engineer just might know where to use what, don't you think ?

Do you have the RTB2000 scope? The display is one of the clearest, sharpest ones I've seen.

No and I studied this thread from it's inception and most of the Vids and all show too shiny glass IMO.
Fine if you need a mirror to comb your hair with but as you get older there's a chance you don't need a comb or a mirror glass scope.

The TDS is a cheap scope but it has a lifetime warranty if I remember. It still has much better resale than Chinese equipment too.

You don't even have the RTB2000 scope (aluminum chassis, by  the way). I do and again, it's a joy to use, an absolute pleasure.

I'm not going to nit pick a scope with someone who doesn't even have one. Give me something to work with here! Geeze.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Can we keep on-topic please!

[Robaroni]

I missed that part at the bottom. "NZ Siglent distributor" Now I see the problem!

Look, I'm sure Siglent is fine but it's not R&S, etc. Please let's be honest!

[Robaroni]

Can we keep on-topic please!

Mike,
My point is that if you ask people to find fault with something they will, nothing's perfect but let's keep it real. Sure it's not perfect but the glossy screen thing is way overreacting. I have TV's, monitors, pads, etc. with glossy screens and I've been using the R&S with no problems in that area.

It reminds me of the old quote from my Navy days, "A bitching sailor is a happy sailor!"

[Hydron]

Can we keep on-topic please!

Agreed! This thread has been generally very useful (albeit dangerous to one's wallet) - thanks to everyone for all the helpful info.

Mike - did the R&S guys make any comments about if they would like general questions and suggestions passed onto them? If so, who to?