Author Topic: Siglent SDS2000X Plus  (Read 745436 times)

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Online Performa01

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #2350 on: January 04, 2021, 11:08:52 am »
Anybody who cares to look at the postings behind the provided links can see what the actual resolution enhancement is. We get 10 bits in 10 bit mode (surprise!) and up to additional 6 bits by using ERES 3.0

Yes, it's the whole point of the ERES "halfbits" to indicate that a resolution enhanced 8 bit ADC (by oversampling/filtering) is of course not the same as a physical ADC with higher resolution. ERES 1.0 for an 8 bit ADC enhances the resolution to 10 bits, but the ENOB cannot exceed 9 bits, not even theoretically.
 
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Offline kcbrown

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #2351 on: January 05, 2021, 06:01:14 pm »
Most recent Siglent equipment that failed on me is the SDG2000X+#@$! (whatever) series. Modulation doesn't work quite right.

I'm beginning to wonder if the problem with bugs in fundamental functionality is something that even the top-tier manufacturers are now failing to detect and rectify prior to release.  For instance: https://youtu.be/SOHjFtw0sgo?t=1248

In the above, a Tektronix AFG31252 fails to get the carrier frequency right in the face of frequency modulation.   That's basic functionality, probably even more so than what prevented your use case from being addressable by the AWG you were using.  If Tektronix is typical of primary manufacturers these days, then one would have to conclude that the top-tier manufacturers and the secondary manufacturers are converging in terms of their quality control.  And that raises the question of exactly what you're paying for when you buy from a top-tier manufacturer.

This is why I'm inclined to say that at this point, individual pieces of equipment have to be evaluated on their own merits, including with respect to bugs, independently of the manufacturer.  Of course, some manufacturers may be more responsive with respect to fixing issues than others, and that has to factor into the equation.  But I would wager that even that metric is a moving target nowadays.  It certainly seems to be with respect to Siglent, at least, who seems to be more willing to fix bugs than they used to be (there are, of course exceptions to even that).


 
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Offline Johnny B Good

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #2352 on: January 06, 2021, 01:34:08 pm »
Most recent Siglent equipment that failed on me is the SDG2000X+#@$! (whatever) series. Modulation doesn't work quite right.

I'm beginning to wonder if the problem with bugs in fundamental functionality is something that even the top-tier manufacturers are now failing to detect and rectify prior to release.  For instance: https://youtu.be/SOHjFtw0sgo?t=1248

In the above, a Tektronix AFG31252 fails to get the carrier frequency right in the face of frequency modulation.   That's basic functionality, probably even more so than what prevented your use case from being addressable by the AWG you were using.  If Tektronix is typical of primary manufacturers these days, then one would have to conclude that the top-tier manufacturers and the secondary manufacturers are converging in terms of their quality control.  And that raises the question of exactly what you're paying for when you buy from a top-tier manufacturer.

This is why I'm inclined to say that at this point, individual pieces of equipment have to be evaluated on their own merits, including with respect to bugs, independently of the manufacturer.  Of course, some manufacturers may be more responsive with respect to fixing issues than others, and that has to factor into the equation.  But I would wager that even that metric is a moving target nowadays.  It certainly seems to be with respect to Siglent, at least, who seems to be more willing to fix bugs than they used to be (there are, of course exceptions to even that).

 A most notable example of such an exception being the rather execrable UI in the SDG1K and 2K series of AWGs, most notably that of the frequency input setting UI which has led to my relegating my recently acquired SDG2042X to that of support plinth for my "Toy" (ha!) FY6600-60M modified to allow it to be locked to my RFS so as to be able to readily trim this rubidium locked source in 1uHz increments to that of the average frequency output from my basic GPSDO in order to quantify the +/-3 or 4 ns phase deviations caused by ionospheric effects on propagation delays between the M8T receiver module and the GPS and Galileo SVs.

 I know some here might think this is a little off-topic but I suspect most SD2K+ owners will likely also be (less than proud) owners of one of these SDG models, all equally afflicted by this 4 years plus "sitting on hands" exercise that has seemingly been ongoing ever since the UI developer had decided "My work here is done!" and took a long rest upon his laurels. >:( >:( >:(

 Despite the piss poor physical UI in that cheap FY6600, it can do what is currently impossible with the SDG AWGs which is to dial in trim adjustments in increments of 1uHz with relative ease over the whole frequency range, DC to 60MHz in decade multiples of my choosing, make other adjustments to either channel's output and return back to the frequency adjustment without losing my place in my chosen digit selection of adjustment.

 This feature, currently lacking in the SDG AWGs, is what makes my modified toy AWG so incredibly useful in quantifying the performance of my basic hardware PLL GPSDO in the face of the limitations of a single frequency GNSS afflicted by ionospheric/tropospheric and all the other lesser system induced errors.

 Apologies for this off-topic rant which really belongs in the "Siglent Technical Support join in EEVblog" topic thread but I thought it would be useful to offer an example to back up you hinted at statement about Siglent's most notable exception in their diligence to fix serious firmware issues. >:D

 I guess after that, I really should compose a well thought out write up for that topic thread just to make sure Siglent, should they take any notice, create the most optimal firmware fixes to the shameful shortcomings in their SDG 1K and 2K UIs rather than create half assed fixes (there are a lot more annoyances than just the frequency setting part of the UI to be dealt with - External 10MHz reference distribution cabling pollution with a crap TCXO source anyone?).

John
John
 
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Online Martin72

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #2353 on: January 06, 2021, 01:54:06 pm »
I´m pretty sure that there are several siglent sdg-threads here..Or start a new "SDGXXXX Bugs" thread.  :)

Slightly on-topic:

The probe-thing....
Today my "new" probes for the scope arrived.
Lecroy PP002, 350Mhz, auto-sense, complete, looks good so far.
For 80€ - All together  :D 8)
 
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Offline 0xdeadbeef

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #2354 on: January 06, 2021, 03:42:39 pm »
Somewhat fascinating that they are obviously quite old, like at least from the 90s and still got the CE marking.
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Online Martin72

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #2355 on: January 06, 2021, 03:59:12 pm »
Yeah, we got some of them at work also, I guess they were coming with the Waverunner Scopes we got since 1999...Or even with the 93XX ones.
Oldies but goldies. 8)

Online Martin72

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #2356 on: January 07, 2021, 11:49:58 am »
And working perfectly...
Interesting, I didn´t notice that so far, it must have been changed with one the firmware updates:
When you got a 500Mhz Version (hehe) and turning on the second channel, first an "A" appears in the channel dialog box, according to the manual it´s the sign for that the BW will be limited to 350Mhz.
"Now" you got it most clearer to see....Nice. :D

Offline maxspb69

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #2357 on: January 10, 2021, 12:38:41 pm »
Unfortunately, it didn't work without bugs. Try switching to "A" and setting gain below 1A/div (500mA and lower). You will get such an unpleasant picture :(
« Last Edit: January 10, 2021, 12:44:09 pm by maxspb69 »
 
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Online Martin72

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #2358 on: January 10, 2021, 03:28:41 pm »
I´ve linked it in the bugs/features thread.

Offline Szybkijanek

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #2359 on: January 13, 2021, 02:07:12 pm »
Got more of these probes, Martin?  :P
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #2360 on: January 14, 2021, 09:40:04 pm »
Hi,

The seller got 8pcs from them, all sold out.
From Lecroy, 350Mhz, Auto-Sense...no wonder they were sold as fast as lightening. ;)
What I didn´t saw it before was the "ref." button on these probes.
Pressing it, it will be the same as if you go to the channel menu and select GND - But much more faster.


Online tautechTopic starter

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #2361 on: January 15, 2021, 08:55:58 am »
New stock SDS2104X Plus SN# range SDS2PDDD4R1*** are somewhat quieter than earlier units and it seems a slower fan has now been fitted.
Earlier Plus units were louder than SDS5000X once their smart fan had kicked back after boot but now they're about equal for fan noise.
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Offline Elasia

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #2362 on: January 15, 2021, 03:44:22 pm »
New stock SDS2104X Plus SN# range SDS2PDDD4R1*** are somewhat quieter than earlier units and it seems a slower fan has now been fitted.
Earlier Plus units were louder than SDS5000X once their smart fan had kicked back after boot but now they're about equal for fan noise.

Really? I dont even notice mine
 
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Offline maxspb69

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #2363 on: January 15, 2021, 04:11:46 pm »
Me too. I can't hear my SDS2K+, especially near with  working Rigol DP832
 
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Offline IAmBack

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #2364 on: January 15, 2021, 04:18:54 pm »
Hi,

The seller got 8pcs from them, all sold out.
From Lecroy, 350Mhz, Auto-Sense...no wonder they were sold as fast as lightening. ;)
What I didn´t saw it before was the "ref." button on these probes.
Pressing it, it will be the same as if you go to the channel menu and select GND - But much more faster.

I've got a set of Lecroy 500M probes with 2.5mm diameter. Not as cheap (price of set was close to my 1054z), but input capaticance is lower and accessories are still available. BTW, I've discovered that LeCroy probes are manufactured by German company PMK, and accessories can be purchased much cheaper if branded PMK rather than LeCroy. Also, PMK probes are sometimes available on Ebay, and are cheaper than LeCroy...
This all I've discovered yesterdays evening, when order for accessories was done and shipment confirmed...
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #2365 on: January 20, 2021, 02:05:42 pm »
Most recent Siglent equipment that failed on me is the SDG2000X+#@$! (whatever) series. Modulation doesn't work quite right.

I'm beginning to wonder if the problem with bugs in fundamental functionality is something that even the top-tier manufacturers are now failing to detect and rectify prior to release.  For instance: https://youtu.be/SOHjFtw0sgo?t=1248

In the above, a Tektronix AFG31252 fails to get the carrier frequency right in the face of frequency modulation.   That's basic functionality, probably even more so than what prevented your use case from being addressable by the AWG you were using.  If Tektronix is typical of primary manufacturers these days, then one would have to conclude that the top-tier manufacturers and the secondary manufacturers are converging in terms of their quality control.  And that raises the question of exactly what you're paying for when you buy from a top-tier manufacturer.
For the record: Today I had the chance to test a Siglent SDG2000X+#$%@ generator and it shows exactly the same behaviour. At some point an AWG runs out of record length to produce a complex signal with the set frequency. However unlike Tektronix, Siglent does not specify the accuracy of the frequency setting.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline kcbrown

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #2366 on: January 20, 2021, 04:32:42 pm »
For the record: Today I had the chance to test a Siglent SDG2000X+#$%@ generator and it shows exactly the same behaviour. At some point an AWG runs out of record length to produce a complex signal with the set frequency. However unlike Tektronix, Siglent does not specify the accuracy of the frequency setting.

It's not clear to me what it means to have an "accuracy" of the frequency setting.  These are DDS AWGs that build their signals as a series of points in memory and then clock them out through a D/A converter.  The actual frequency accuracy of a generated waveform would, I'd think, be determined primarily by the accuracy and jitter of the clock that is used to shift points out through the D/A converter.  The resolution of the frequency setting is clearly limited by that clock, a.k.a. the output sample rate.  Of course, there are other factors that affect the ultimate shape of the waveform, but I'm having trouble seeing how they could affect the apparent frequency of the waveform, i.e. the rate at which the same point in the waveform repeats itself, unless perhaps the waveform frequency approaches Nyquist.

But here, the drift is in comparison to the other channel of the same AWG.  Both channels have the same time source, or at least I would presume them to, so I'd expect them to be clocking out points in lockstep.  The accuracy and resolution of the frequency setting should be irrelevant in that case -- this isn't a measurement relative to an external frequency standard, but rather relative to the same internal standard that is being used by the AWG.  This, I believe, is why Shahriar believes it to be a bug in the firmware.  Admittedly, this is FM, so the generator has to generate a continuously-varying-frequency signal, there will certainly be some error at any given frequency, and I suppose what we're seeing might be the result of the actual average frequency within the FM range deviating slightly from the designated carrier frequency.  But as the sample rate of the AWG increases and the number of points available to construct one period of the waveform increases, I'd expect to see that average converge on the actual carrier frequency as the sample rate increases, in the absence of ways of constructing the samples of a frequency modulated waveform over time to ensure that the average winds up being the same as the carrier frequency.

Of course, if each channel gets its own separate clock (which would surprise me greatly), that would clearly make inter-channel frequency deviation a near-certainty.

That said, my SDG1025 shows the same behavior, too, and notably worse than what the video shows, at that.   Its sample rate is 125MS/s.  The sample rate of the SDG2000X series is 1GS/s.   Just out of curiosity, if you use the same parameters as Shahriar used (1 MHz carrier, 10 kHz deviation), does the rate at which the modulated waveform moves relative to the pure base frequency signal seem to be about twice that shown in the video?  The Tek has a sample rate of 2GS/s.


Also, do you have access to an AWG from Keysight or Instek?  I'm curious if this behavior is present in those generators as well.
 

Online tautechTopic starter

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #2367 on: January 20, 2021, 07:15:42 pm »
For the record: Today I had the chance to test a Siglent SDG2000X+#$%@ generator and it shows exactly the same behaviour. At some point an AWG runs out of record length to produce a complex signal with the set frequency. However unlike Tektronix, Siglent does not specify the accuracy of the frequency setting.
Oh yes they do in the datasheet under: Frequency Characteristics
P7
https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2017/10/SDG2000X_DataSheet_DS0202X-E02E.pdf
Of course, if each channel gets its own separate clock (which would surprise me greatly), that would clearly make inter-channel frequency deviation a near-certainty.
With the Waveform Combine and channel Phase lock features available in X series SDG's a single clock seems most likely.
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Online tautechTopic starter

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #2368 on: January 20, 2021, 07:23:02 pm »
New Programming Guide specifically for SDS2000X Plus models:
https://int.siglent.com/u_file/document/SDS2000X%20Plus_ProgrammingGuide_PG01-E11A.pdf
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Online nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #2369 on: January 20, 2021, 07:39:01 pm »
For the record: Today I had the chance to test a Siglent SDG2000X+#$%@ generator and it shows exactly the same behaviour. At some point an AWG runs out of record length to produce a complex signal with the set frequency. However unlike Tektronix, Siglent does not specify the accuracy of the frequency setting.
Oh yes they do in the datasheet under: Frequency Characteristics
P7
https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2017/10/SDG2000X_DataSheet_DS0202X-E02E.pdf
No. It is not there. What is there is the range you can adjust the frequency and the stability of the oscillator. What isn't there are the number of significant digits and fraction of the setting that is guaranteed to be correct.

In case of a complex waveform the generator has to construct an entire period of the waveform in memory and replay it. There are going to be limits to the clock frequency and memory length in order to produce this waveform (probably with some other trickery as well) but in the end there are going to be rounding errors. The frequency accuracy / number of significant digits tells the user what is the worst case error to be expected.

Tektronix specifies these numbers for both standard and arbitrary waveforms seperately for the AFG31000 series.

@kcbrown: from what I have tested with several generators (GW Instek MFG2000 , TTi TGF4000, Siglent SDG1010) is that they use the same clock for both channels but if the frequency difference becomes too great then there will be a frequency offset between the channels. For example: a 10MHz and 1Hz output signal will not be in sync. I don't have access to a Keysight generator but I suspect the Keysight might behave the same where it comes to FM generation.

Since this is getting wildly off-topic I'll leave it from here.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 07:44:33 pm by nctnico »
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Offline kcbrown

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #2370 on: January 20, 2021, 07:51:49 pm »
Since this is getting wildly off-topic I'll leave it from here.

What's the proper place to continue this discussion?
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #2371 on: January 20, 2021, 08:34:46 pm »
It would be very nice when we stop offtopic here... 8)

Here some suggestions:

SDG2042X thread

SDG1000X Thread

SDG2000X Firmware, Hardware, Software
 
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Online tautechTopic starter

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #2372 on: January 20, 2021, 08:42:25 pm »
It would be very nice when we stop offtopic here... 8)

Here some suggestions:

SDG2042X thread

SDG1000X Thread

SDG2000X Firmware, Hardware, Software
In addition, most of the Siglent equipment threads are listed in the first post here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-technical-support-join-in-eevblog/
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Online nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #2373 on: January 20, 2021, 08:53:40 pm »
Since this is getting wildly off-topic I'll leave it from here.

What's the proper place to continue this discussion?
A new thread would be more appropriate because the subject is wider than a specific brand/type of function generator.
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Offline kcbrown

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #2374 on: January 21, 2021, 01:20:27 am »
A new thread would be more appropriate because the subject is wider than a specific brand/type of function generator.

New thread started here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/why-do-some-awgs-generate-fm-signals-with-an-incorrect-carrier-frequency/msg3424028/#msg3424028
 
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