FTDI driver kills fake FTDI FT232??

[dannyf]

some will go through heart wrenching decisions picking who to save.

I have been in turn-arounds for a few times and it is some of the hardest decisions I had to make. You have to balance the well-beings of the rest of the organization and its employees and those that you let go.

Letting go someone you know well personally is the hardest. You know how it will impact not just the employees but also their families.

[nctnico]

In some sense, you are right.  Some no doubt don't think much of firing 1000, some will go through heart wrenching decisions picking who to save.  However, "lacking conscience and empathy" would be too big a draw-back with many other decision making process.  Lacking empathy alone will greatly reduce the quality of his/her decisions lack alone lacking conscience.

I doubt that. Look on Youtube for the shockumentary called 'The yes men fix the world'. See how real businessmen and CEOs react to moral dillemmas.

[janengelbrecht]

In some sense, you are right.  Some no doubt don't think much of firing 1000, some will go through heart wrenching decisions picking who to save.  However, "lacking conscience and empathy" would be too big a draw-back with many other decision making process.  Lacking empathy alone will greatly reduce the quality of his/her decisions lack alone lacking conscience.

I doubt that. Look on Youtube for the shockumentary called 'The yes men fix the world'. See how real businessmen and CEOs react to moral dillemmas.

In fact....the representation of sociopaths is higher among CEOs (and lawyers) than in the rest of the population...So empathy must be rare among CEOs in big corporations....

http://mic.com/articles/44423/10-professions-that-attract-the-most-sociopaths
http://www.thestar.com/business/2012/07/05/psychopathy_and_the_ceo_top_executives_have_four_times_the_incidence_of_psychopathy_as_the_rest_of_us.html

[Rick Law]

In some sense, you are right.  Some no doubt don't think much of firing 1000, some will go through heart wrenching decisions picking who to save.  However, "lacking conscience and empathy" would be too big a draw-back with many other decision making process.  Lacking empathy alone will greatly reduce the quality of his/her decisions lack alone lacking conscience.

I doubt that. Look on Youtube for the shockumentary called 'The yes men fix the world'. See how real businessmen and CEOs react to moral dillemmas.

What is it that you doubt?

[nctnico]

In some sense, you are right.  Some no doubt don't think much of firing 1000, some will go through heart wrenching decisions picking who to save.  However, "lacking conscience and empathy" would be too big a draw-back with many other decision making process.  Lacking empathy alone will greatly reduce the quality of his/her decisions lack alone lacking conscience.

I doubt that. Look on Youtube for the shockumentary called 'The yes men fix the world'. See how real businessmen and CEOs react to moral dillemmas.

What is it that you doubt?

That corporate managers have a conscience 

[Rick Law]

some will go through heart wrenching decisions picking who to save.

I have been in turn-arounds for a few times and it is some of the hardest decisions I had to make. You have to balance the well-beings of the rest of the organization and its employees and those that you let go.

Letting go someone you know well personally is the hardest. You know how it will impact not just the employees but also their families.

re: "...Letting go someone you know well personally is the hardest..."

Yeah...  Been there, done that.  Even if it is someone you don't know, it is hard.  For someone you know, it is heart breaking.   For those occasions, lack of the "ability to feel empathy" would certainly be an advantage.  I was reflecting on exactly that as I wrote the prior response.

[Rick Law]

In some sense, you are right.  Some no doubt don't think much of firing 1000, some will go through heart wrenching decisions picking who to save.  However, "lacking conscience and empathy" would be too big a draw-back with many other decision making process.  Lacking empathy alone will greatly reduce the quality of his/her decisions lack alone lacking conscience.

I doubt that. Look on Youtube for the shockumentary called 'The yes men fix the world'. See how real businessmen and CEOs react to moral dillemmas.

What is it that you doubt?

That corporate managers have a conscience 

Ah...  No doubt some don't have a conscience.  My personal experience with CEO (of >$1bn revenue) is small, but I do know BOTH kinds.

The reply was about "senior managers".  I interpret "senior managers" as officers of the corporation or officers of a company or division.  Accepting that as definition, I have worked with enough "senior managers" to fill more than a few bus loads.  At the senior manager level, I know both kinds too.  I know at that level "empathy and conscience" is an asset.  That they still have one or two level above them yet is a good check against their potentially unbounded egos.

[dannyf]

the representation of sociopaths is higher among CEOs (and lawyers) than in the rest of the population..

The probablity of finding a genius among the mentally retarded is far higher than that among normal people....

sociopaths / CEOs are all not average joe. Obviously, you will have an easier time find non-average-joe amongst non-average-joes, just as you would more likely find tall people among NBA players, fast runners among sprinters, strong people among weight lifers....

Or sociopaths among socially inept people, like scientists or engineers, or geniuses,

[nitro2k01]

The probablity of finding a genius among the mentally retarded is far higher than that among normal people....

sociopaths / CEOs are all not average joe. Obviously, you will have an easier time find non-average-joe amongst non-average-joes, just as you would more likely find tall people among NBA players, fast runners among sprinters, strong people among weight lifers....

Or sociopaths among socially inept people, like scientists or engineers, or geniuses,

The first and last paragraphs don't make much sense, by the definitions of the words. Someone who is mentally retarded is almost never a genius, even if you will find some statistical anomalies (savants, classically called idiot savants). A sociopath is good at being socially manipulative, and is unlikely to be socially inept, again by definition.

Sociopaths are not more common among CEOs because those groups are both outliers, but because a sociopath would have the necessary skills to become an CEO. As a sociopath, you are more likely to be able to disregard others for your own, and your company's profit. But the discussion that then follows is whether this is good or bad for society at large. By the common libertarian/anarchocapitalist logic, all is as it should. But you might also argue that having sociopaths in power can be destructive for society. You might also argue that a debt collector will be more successful at his profession if he's willing to bust the kneecaps of people who won't pay up. That doesn't mean it's a good idea for it to be socially acceptable for debt collectors to apply bodily harm to the people who are in debt.

[janengelbrecht]

The probablity of finding a genius among the mentally retarded is far higher than that among normal people....

sociopaths / CEOs are all not average joe. Obviously, you will have an easier time find non-average-joe amongst non-average-joes, just as you would more likely find tall people among NBA players, fast runners among sprinters, strong people among weight lifers....

Or sociopaths among socially inept people, like scientists or engineers, or geniuses,

The first and last paragraphs don't make much sense, by the definitions of the words. Someone who is mentally retarded is almost never a genius, even if you will find some statistical anomalies (savants, classically called idiot savants). A sociopath is good at being socially manipulative, and is unlikely to be socially inept, again by definition.

Sociopaths are not more common among CEOs because those groups are both outliers, but because a sociopath would have the necessary skills to become an CEO. As a sociopath, you are more likely to be able to disregard others for your own, and your company's profit. But the discussion that then follows is whether this is good or bad for society at large. By the common libertarian/anarchocapitalist logic, all is as it should. But you might also argue that having sociopaths in power can be destructive for society. You might also argue that a debt collector will be more successful at his profession if he's willing to bust the kneecaps of people who won't pay up. That doesn't mean it's a good idea for it to be socially acceptable for debt collectors to apply bodily harm to the people who are in debt.

All the above is a simple fact Im not so sure problems always are at CEO level though My experience is that a lot of times CEO hasnt a clue about whats going on

[nctnico]

What the 'yes men' are showing is that CEOs and managers operate from a distance and seem to get disconnected from the real world. That doesn't mean that they are sociopaths perse but they do believe that they serve the greater good by their mallicious acts (can I make a comparison with nazis for a clear example?).

[tszaboo]

What the 'yes men' are showing is that CEOs and managers operate from a distance and seem to get disconnected from the real world. That doesn't mean that they are sociopaths perse but they do believe that they serve the greater good by their mallicious acts (can I make a comparison with nazis for a clear example?).

Yes you may. Godwin's law confirmed, thank you!

[zapta]

Yes you may. Godwin's law confirmed, thank you!

Only Nazis care about Godwin law.

[Rick Law]

What the 'yes men' are showing is that CEOs and managers operate from a distance and seem to get disconnected from the real world. That doesn't mean that they are sociopaths perse but they do believe that they serve the greater good by their mallicious acts (can I make a comparison with nazis for a clear example?).

But that is no different than "average Joe".  On average, we will find a good percentage of "average Joe's" who would prefer not to hear bad news.  And, on average, you will good a good percentage of "average Joe's" with no idea of is going on around him/her.

I'll cite 3 examples:

- Ask any parent with kids in school.  What percentage of them know the subjects their kids MUST learn for the core courses this school year.  I bet less than 20% would know with 80% accuracy.

- You walk into an average facility of any major corporation, and the average employee there what is their corporation's mission statement.  See what kind of response you got.  Let's even forgo "average facility" and do that at corporate HQ - ask an average employee there right at corporate HQ their mission statement and see what you got.  I would be very surprise if a majority of them knows their corporate's mission statement.

- Walk into any department and ask what is their corporation's revenue target for the project/product they spend the most time on.  Ask them for that same project what is the corporation's P&L expectation for that project or product this quarter (or at introduction if new product).  I would be surprise if a majority knows.

Yet even the average Joe is part of this corporation that paid his rent, his car...  and he doesn't even know the department's revenue goal, how it compares with last quarter, what is the growth compare to last year this month...  yet this is what makes his financial well being...

We all see the world through our own frame of reference and our own little view port.      The CEO needs to know only what he needs to know to fulfill his responsibility - which is to serve the stock holders whom entrusted this CEO to manage their money.  Unless a project/product is important to the immediate health of the corporation, or the long term financial health of the corporation, or in some manner affects the corporation significantly, his knowing and worry about the details would be a waste of his time and attention span.

Aggressive and ambitious employees would want to make sure he/she works on the projects that the CEO thinks he/she needs to know as CEO.  Otherwise, the CEO likely shouldn't know what you are doing.  He paid someone else to worry about those things.

[nctnico]

You go completely past the point of having a moral compass.

[Rufus]

You go completely past the point of having a moral compass.

Talk of morals here? lol - all the moaning has been about FTDI not letting you rip off their drivers any more and how to reprogram the fakes to let you keep on ripping off FTDI drivers.

And consider the morals of the CEO of whoever the hell it was that made your fakes.

[Rick Law]

You go completely past the point of having a moral compass.

Since this reply is immediately after my reply, I have to ask - are you referring to me?

If it is indeed referring to me, please enlighten me on which part of my reply is so immoral.

Rick

[nctnico]

You go completely past the point of having a moral compass.

Since this reply is immediately after my reply, I have to ask - are you referring to me?

If it is indeed referring to me, please enlighten me on which part of my reply is so immoral.
Rick

Your reply is not immoral but it just misses the point. You just state that people don't know everything what is going on around them. That if fine because you can't know everything BUT people can know the difference between right and wrong. For that they don't need know what their department's revenue target is or what their kids learn in school. It's as simple as: if I hit my finger with a hammer it hurts so if I hit someone else's finger with a hammer it will hurt that person. Some people however get detached from that and don't care whether their actions hurt other people.

[EEVblog]

MODERATOR NOTE: I have removed the tangent into WMD's, it is not needed in this thread, please stay on-topic.

[(*steve*)]

I've just received my cheap eBay FTDI board and I am extremely disappointed that it evaluates as a genuine chip. 

You bought via ebay, ergo it is fake by default.

I agree, that's quite likely and was the intent of the exercise.

I've just received my cheap eBay FTDI board and Any idea if this *looks* like a real one?

Doesn't matter.  You didn't buy the chip via an authorized reseller and solder it onto the board yourself / bought the widget from a genuine chip customer (the ones they won't name), ergo it is fake by default.

Even if you were to dissolve the top, put it under a microscope, and deduce that it is an exact duplicate of a genuine FTDI chip: that just means the counterfeiter in question must have been doing a better job; fake by default applies.

Yeah, but it's somewhat beside the point.  I was looking for a fake.

The question is, is it possible to make a determination by looking at it (since in this case it passes FTDI's test)?

And the answer is that I think it is.  The index mark looks like the mark of the fake as per the oft posted image of the real vs the fake.

I'm no chip spotter, and I have no idea if FTDI have multiple sites producing their chips, or if any of them produce different index marks.  Let's assume they don't (produce different index marks).

If that is true then this fake was available pretty much at the time FTDI's driver issue was noticed, and it passes it.

What that means is the bricking FTDI driver was essentially obsolete (to the fakers) when it was released.  And that's not real good news for FTDI.  The driver was perhaps too much (for end users) and too late (for the fakers).

I rather hope that FTDI have methods for detecting their chip in many ways and will start alerting users to new fakes on a regular basis to discourage those who must reverse engineer a fix for each new driver.  If that is true, they are still a bit behind the game as is illustrated by chips passing the current test which are (to a reasonable person) likely not to be original.

[Rigby]

Uhhh, are you saying that genuine chips cannot be available on eBay at all?  As in not possible?

[(*steve*)]

Uhhh, are you saying that genuine chips cannot be available on eBay at all?  As in not possible?

I'm suggesting that I chose a price point where I considered it unlikely.

[EEVblog]

Uhhh, are you saying that genuine chips cannot be available on eBay at all?  As in not possible?

It's gotten to a point on ebay whereby you almost have to assume that all parts are fake. And not just FTDI chips, but probably most parts.

[pickle9000]

Uhhh, are you saying that genuine chips cannot be available on eBay at all?  As in not possible?

It's gotten to a point on ebay whereby you almost have to assume that all parts are fake. And not just FTDI chips, but probably most parts.

Or savaged

[Simon]

Uhhh, are you saying that genuine chips cannot be available on eBay at all?  As in not possible?

It's gotten to a point on ebay whereby you almost have to assume that all parts are fake. And not just FTDI chips, but probably most parts.

 

You generally get what you pay for and buying from some countries directly increases the risk, my supplier won't supply me atmega chips simply because they are not made in china and I can get them cheaper than he can, so yes assume that most arduino chips that are cheap and from china are fake.