EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[timofonic]

Seeing all these crap products makes me mad, but mostly sad... Sad that for every Batteriser that you expose for bring a scam, you have 10x more types of garbage products out there that continue. It is an impossible task to challenge them all, and even if you did, people would still buy them and swindlers will continue to make a living.

So what has this entire Batteriser drama taught us (besides a nice refresher on proper electronics testing and measurement and battery and boost circuits performance).... Well, sadly, that we may as well just give up because if every one of these crap scammy product companies fight like Batteroo, it is just going to be too tiring.

We can discuss and debate it all in the forums, Dave can call it B.S. and do a video, but this going back and forth just gets pointless very quickly when you realize there is no way to argue with the scammers, and it is hard to reach the potential victims of the scam also. I guess caveat emptor is right.

I think a cure to stupidity might solve it.

Telepathy, fast knowledge transfer, parallel thinking between many minds and all that sci-fi/New Age concepts becoming reality.

Until then, our biology sucks. We need urgently a brain upgrade.

Some people are able to be smart in some areas, but it learning abilities might become damaged or limited easily. Too much information, too much limitation.

Brainriser! Improve your brain by 800000%

Just put this specially engineered tinfoil hat with custom innovating technology. Your mind will be nearly limitless!

Buy one by just 80K US at Brainriser.com

[Chipguy]

Time was 9 hr 38 min from start until it shut off.  What's interesting is that even while using boost converters, the bare GPS without using the boost converters went almost nearly as low in voltage before it shut off, so I have a feeling if I re-run this with teh battery mode set to lithium (so the screen never dims), batteries will probably run longer due to avoiding the losses in the boost converters.  I'll probably test that tonight for fun.

[Some nice graphs not quoted here]

Link to the timelapse:

Nice data     
Nice graphs      
Data is so beautiful, so here are finally the voltages I have collected since the discussion has begun:

Whenever I get the chance to test a product's cut out voltage I do now, and I have only found one which a small chance that a Batteriser could improve the usability. But that's clearly due to a bad design decision.

So far:

Honeywell Rondostat Radiator Controller (2 AA) Firmware 2.04: 1.95-2.05V
Honeywell Rondostat Radiator Controller (2 AA) Firmware 1.xx (sorry forgot to note that down): 2.1-2.2V

Logitech Wireless mouse M705 (2 AA NiMH) 1.87V but starts to get weird around 2.0V
A cheapo crappy chinese "One-Hung-Lo" Mosquito heater pen (2 AAA) : 2.3V not really cut out, but heating up takes awfully long.
Clock, recently deceased battery (1 AA) : 0.78V, measured without load.

Remote for LG TV (2AA): This remote is badly designed IMO, the capacitor inside is too small and it takes high current spikes.
The µCurrent revealed it Voltage under load (a spike) 1.6-1.7V while the batteries had 2.33V when idle.

Why I quote voltage ranges and not one voltage:
Sometimes I took several measurements under load, for instance when that radiator controller turned the motor on.
The voltage gets very noisy then and the values are jumping around a little.
I got the feeling that batteries that have been used for a long time (clock ore remote control) have a higher inner resistance than these who were used for one ow two months. However I didn't measure that, so that's just a guess.

All batteries were Alkaline, various brands but mostly VARTA.

Still to come:
A Surefeed RFID controlled cat feeder (prevents the other cat from stealing) : (4 C cells) : That thing is going for ages now, very impressed with that.
A PIR sensor controlled "get off the table, cat" compressed air spray can (4 AAA): Cat's are not naughty enough, so it's still going..
Dunno if it makes sense to also check the CR2032 from another remote

[5ky]

Nice data     
Nice graphs      
Data is so beautiful, so here are finally the voltages I have collected since the discussion has begun:

Whenever I get the chance to test a product's cut out voltage I do now, and I have only found one which a small chance that a Batteriser could improve the usability. But that's clearly due to a bad design decision.

So far:

Honeywell Rondostat Radiator Controller (2 AA) Firmware 2.04: 1.95-2.05V
Honeywell Rondostat Radiator Controller (2 AA) Firmware 1.xx (sorry forgot to note that down): 2.1-2.2V

Logitech Wireless mouse M705 (2 AA NiMH) 1.87V but starts to get weird around 2.0V
A cheapo crappy chinese "One-Hung-Lo" Mosquito heater pen (2 AAA) : 2.3V not really cut out, but heating up takes awfully long.
Clock, recently deceased battery (1 AA) : 0.78V, measured without load.

Remote for LG TV (2AA): This remote is badly designed IMO, the capacitor inside is too small and it takes high current spikes.
The µCurrent revealed it Voltage under load (a spike) 1.6-1.7V while the batteries had 2.33V when idle.

Why I quote voltage ranges and not one voltage:
Sometimes I took several measurements under load, for instance when that radiator controller turned the motor on.
The voltage gets very noisy then and the values are jumping around a little.
I got the feeling that batteries that have been used for a long time (clock ore remote control) have a higher inner resistance than these who were used for one ow two months. However I didn't measure that, so that's just a guess.

All batteries were Alkaline, various brands but mostly VARTA.

Still to come:
A Surefeed RFID controlled cat feeder (prevents the other cat from stealing) : (4 C cells) : That thing is going for ages now, very impressed with that.
A PIR sensor controlled "get off the table, cat" compressed air spray can (4 AAA): Cat's are not naughty enough, so it's still going..
Dunno if it makes sense to also check the CR2032 from another remote

And even with the random items that could potentially benefit from batteriser, you still have to accept the fact that you lose any battery level indicators in products, on top of the risk of your camera shutting off during a video record because you never got a low battery indicator.

And that's also assuming you use batteries WITHOUT batteriser until the device powers off, THEN put batteriser on, else you lose 10-30% through the losses in the batterisers.

Lots of variables, very little REAL information out of batteroo.  I'm very curious to see how the numbers look using the real deal once they're out. (if they ever ship)

[Chipguy]

And even with the random items that could potentially benefit from batteriser, you still have to accept the fact that you lose any battery level indicators in products, on top of the risk of your camera shutting off during a video record because you never got a low battery indicator.

And that's also assuming you use batteries WITHOUT batteriser until the device powers off, THEN put batteriser on, else you lose 10-30% through the losses in the batterisers.

Lots of variables, very little REAL information out of batteroo.  I'm very curious to see how the numbers look using the real deal once they're out. (if they ever ship)

Exactly, think of the smoke detector scenario. It won't notify you that the battery is about to go. That's even dangerous.

When the thing was mentioned first I was like "oh, interesting, are there really so many products out there that do not use batteries up properly...hmmm"
Then the first test were conducted by Dave and others, so it went to "ok, in practice it is rather useless but it could work for some products".
Since I heard the price I am rather like "Let's see if they will ever get into production, I have my doubts, hopefully I'm wrong"
We will see if they gonna take the money, make some of them, even ship them and then declare bankruptcy. Won't be surprised.
They might even blame that on Dave 

[Mr.B]

Somebody should make a request at UL with the claimed UL Project Number: 4787059213.

http://ul.com/offerings/market-surveillance/

Thats already been done earlier in this thread.
IIRC the internal project number has no public reference and UL wouldn't discuss it, or something like that.

[Wytnucls]

Frankie Roohparvar's initial brainstorm:
Do all EE Engineers draw ellipses like an 8-year old would? 
Is this what 'Big Battery and the break-in' was about? 

[wraper]

Frankie Roohparvar's initial brainstorm:
Do all EE Engineers draw ellipses like an 8-year old would? 

I don't think it's uncommon to draw something like this when you trying to figure out some rough idea. Though I personally won't publish such artworks of myself regarding to some product I intend to sell.

[meeder]

And to think Batteriser was bad... This fuel saver is even worse! Very sad indeed that these crooks can go to work every day and swindle money from people.

Wouldn't that site be fake?
They are selling a €80 hose clip...
http://www.be-fuelsaver.net/en/shop/bio-energetic-emission-saver-ms/

[AndyC_772]

Whenever I get the chance to test a product's cut out voltage I do now, and I have only found one which a small chance that a Batteriser could improve the usability. But that's clearly due to a bad design decision.

I think I have one, a Logitech "Anywhere Mouse MX". (Two examples, as it happens... both behave the same).

It's a nice mouse, very smooth and accurate, but only when the AA batteries are fresh. As their voltage drops, it starts to become erratic, and the wireless range decreases. By the time they've dropped to 1.3V per cell, the mouse still "works", but it's no longer reliable enough... drag operations stop prematurely, movement is jerky, that sort of thing.

This means I end up changing the batteries at this point, even though there's plenty of energy left in them. Even more annoyingly, since this is above the voltage of a fresh pair of rechargeables, I'm stuck with using alkaline.

There's quite a lot of noise on the 'net about this model of mouse, and problems it has with clicking and dragging after a period of time. My personal experience is that the tendency to misbehave correlates with battery voltage, and at risk of attracting a degree of well-deserved flak, I'd quite like to try a couple of Batterisers to see if they help. In theory, I could stop using alkaline cells altogether, and instead use a set of low self-discharge NiMh cells, with Batterisers installed to boost the voltage.

It's perhaps also worth noting that the mouse is no longer in production. It's been replaced by a mk 2 version, which among other changes, has a built-in rechargeable battery.

[Wytnucls]

I've been using the Logitech MX anywhere for a long time. My experience couldn't be more different from yours. Batteries last for ever and there are no glitches until the low voltage light comes on. I will measure drop out voltage and consumption later to see if it ties up with your figures.
(Logitech figures: cordless range 10 meters, battery life 7 months)

http://www.engadget.com/products/logitech/anywhere-mouse-mx/

[AndyC_772]

OK, maybe I have a couple of defective mice, I wouldn't be at all surprised.

I was just suggesting that, given that I already have the mice, a cheap and easily installed device to keep the voltage up would actually be beneficial in my specific case. I'd try a battery booster before replacing them.

[drussell]

...
We can discuss and debate it all in the forums, Dave can call it B.S. and do a video, but this going back and forth just gets pointless very quickly when you realize there is no way to argue with the scammers, and it is hard to reach the potential victims of the scam also. I guess caveat emptor is right.

Caveat emptor, indeed, however, what dimays me the most about this type of situation is that years ago, when I was a child, at least, the media, the true journalists in the media, took it upon themselves to actually investigate this sort of thing before they actually reported on it.  Be it politics, new technology or some other topic, they would truly strive to do their research to attempt to bring you that latest breaking news the story, behind the scenes and below the surface before ever daring to actually publish it.  (I took a few classes in journalism many years ago and this was still the ideal at the time, at least, as well...)

These days, apparently any media outlet either just regurgitates whatever press releases and/or paid advertisements are placed in front of them (and often lately there seems to be an unfortunately thin line separating those categories with newsvertizing and edutainment ruling the roost lately) or is generally just beholden to some external kind of force, rather than real, true independant journalism.

We should all recognise that everyone in the general population will not understand the technical nuances of some particular subject but can at least help to steer the conversation in the direction of sanity, rational discussion on the merits and critical analysis.

There is a way to help disuade the scammers and educate the public and really it is our responsibility as members of the engineering community to ensure that the most possible information is made available to the widest possible audience.  Members of the "mass media" should be ashamed of themselves for many things in the past many years as they have traditionally been looked upon by the "general public" as an institution of integrity and a source of information on subjects that the average person may not be expected to be an expert on and have seemingly been trying to erode that historically hard-earned authority at an alarming rate.....

[Rasz]

turns out you can sue and win against scam crowdfunding campaign
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/253471/State_court_orders_Kickstarted_game_creator_to_pay_54k_for_failing_to_deliver.php

[Wytnucls]

Glad to see that, in the US at least, crowd funding scammers can be taken to court.
I wonder if the scam artists would still be liable if the goods are delivered, but come short on effectiveness promises.
Perhaps that link should posted on Batteroo's site. 

[EEVblog]

A phone call doesn't sound that bad. You can discuss with her the facts, it might help other people who otherwise would buy the Batteriser.

Phone calls are always a bad idea when dealing with the press. There is no record of exactly what was said or the way it was said.

[EEVblog]

Magazines and journalists do not have the judgement power to decide what's true or not.
They are on the "Volt=Current, bad contact=short circuit and Power=Energy" side of the story, unless proven differently.

They also have no reason to doubt otherwise educated and reputable sounding designers. e.g. A PhD professor, 500+ patents, former CEO of big tech companies etc.
Technical people on the other hand know that only verifiable and reproducible data and best practices is what matters.
Doesn't matter who you are, you can be demonstrably wrong the next time you open your mouth. Science & engineering does not work on appeal to authority.

[EEVblog]

Time was 9 hr 38 min from start until it shut off.  What's interesting is that even while using boost converters, the bare GPS without using the boost converters went almost nearly as low in voltage before it shut off, so I have a feeling if I re-run this with teh battery mode set to lithium (so the screen never dims), batteries will probably run longer due to avoiding the losses in the boost converters.  I'll probably test that tonight for fun.
Without boost converters:

And don't you just love those dips way below the product cutoff voltage, and wow!, what you know, the product didn't switch off!
Oops, just busted Batteriser "Technical" video that was all about those dreaded voltage dips 

[Jay_Diddy_B]

Hi,
I would ask the Journalist to request a sample from Batteriser. Since they must have them, after all UL tested them and they submitted samples for EMC (FCC) testing.

It would be very telling if they could get an actual sample, not a press pack of PR.

Jay_Diddy_B

[EEVblog]

The designers of these products don't like being called out:
http://www.compendiumarcana.com/fuel_doctor_fd47/

[AmmoJammo]

And don't you just love those dips way below the product cutoff voltage, and wow!, what you know, the product didn't switch off!
Oops, just busted Batteriser "Technical" video that was all about those dreaded voltage dips 

Which is why they only ever posted the current graph of their gps test, even through they were also logging voltage...

[EEVblog]

Lots of variables, very little REAL information out of batteroo. 

I don't think Batteroo have ever released one single piece of technical information that is the least bit usable and credible?
And of course many of their claims they have had to revoke or revise 

[EEVblog]

Frankie Roohparvar's initial brainstorm:
Do all EE Engineers draw ellipses like an 8-year old would? 
Is this what 'Big Battery and the break-in' was about? 

That image is clearly a draft image for a patent. The numbered terms 101, 102 etc are a dead giveaway.
I don't know anyone who draws brainstorming images like that 

[EEVblog]

And don't you just love those dips way below the product cutoff voltage, and wow!, what you know, the product didn't switch off!
Oops, just busted Batteriser "Technical" video that was all about those dreaded voltage dips 

Which is why they only ever posted the current graph of their gps test, even through they were also logging voltage...

Of course, that would be, well, inconvenient!
The art of good BS is knowing what to leave out.

[meeder]

The designers of these products don't like being called out:
http://www.compendiumarcana.com/fuel_doctor_fd47/

The similarities are obvious...

[Muttley Snickers]

My eyesight is rapidly deteriorating, has anybody tried those high definition sun glasses yet, they must be good to be on TV.

I have been evaluating a serious competitor to the Batteriser, it's called the Energizer Ultimate Lithium Battery. The packet says it lasts 7 times longer and the fresh unloaded voltage is around 1.80 volts so my Canon Powershort SX 100is camera is back in operation again on batteries, I posted about it previously somewhere and am hoping that if they become a bit more popular the price might start to drop. Also they are much lighter than regular batteries, approximately 14 grams compared to 24 grams for a Duracell Coppertop.


Disclaimer : I have no affiliation with any of the brands listed above, nor do I recommend Canon cameras that are meant to run on regular or rechargeable AA batteries but dont.