EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[Brumby]

So, maybe Bob and Co are looking at a low key exit strategy and simply aiming to go quietly into the night.........

[Jay_Diddy_B]

Hi groups,

Here are todays comments from the IGG campaign:



We have another non-believer asking for photos. Do these people have no faith?

The comment from Jacky Tang, when translated by Google "when will it ship". As English speaker, a more a accurate translation is "When will this sink like the Titanic?". Feel free to contribute other translations.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

[LabSpokane]

(...) most of the funders will write it off as another bad investment if more than a year goes by with no actual evidence of production.

And Bob Roohparvar will be free to create another scam, another fraudulent crowdfunding project, because most backers won't even remember his name after all this. Give it enough time and all this batteroo scam will be forgotten.

Regard anyone who introduces her/himself to you as a "Serial Entrepreneur" with extreme suspicion.  I guarantee this won't be the last we see of some of these players. 

[Fungus]

So, maybe Bob and Co are looking at a low key exit strategy and simply aiming to go quietly into the night.........

Why? They've got a perfect, blameless out with the Energiser lawsuit.

Who could resist saying "our last product was so good that we were killed by Big Battery"?

[EEVblog]

Who could resist saying "our last product was so good that we were killed by Big Battery"?

Odds are it's coming. This curtain won't close without mention of it.

[Brumby]

Who could resist saying "our last product was so good that we were killed by Big Battery"?

Odds are it's coming. This curtain won't close without mention of it.

I think the odds are pretty high as well.

[Nerull]

Batt=risfr? They're going full knock-off-branding now?

[l0rd_hex]

Mmmm I'll have a Johnnie Worker neat!

[Fungus]

Mmmm I'll have a Johnnie Worker neat!

Red Labial? 


PS: Laphroig...

[meeder]

The Red Label knock-off can't be worse then the original ;-)

[Bud]

I would not touch it with a 6 foot pole...

[AlxDroidDev]

Most of you possibly have already seen this video, but it is another use for the Pooperiser (or Batterpoo)

[ez24]

Now I know how Bob got 800%

he drank too much

Johnnie Worker's "Red Labial"

Hard to believe this would fool the Chinese (I used to always take a bottle of Black Label when I went there to give to friends).  They like this stuff.  Maybe this is from the Red Workers days?

[l0rd_hex]

At first I thought it was Red Labia... (shudder) 

[ChunkyPastaSauce]

Well they have another patent up for examination.  Preparation started sometime ago but didn't popup as it wasn't up for examination until recently (public pair system).

Google version:
https://www.google.com/patents/US20150048785

Very first claim is
"A method for extending the life of a battery, the method comprising:
receiving a battery electrical power output from the battery, the battery electrical power output having a battery output voltage that decreases from a battery first output voltage to a battery second output voltage;
using the battery electrical power output to drive a converter that outputs a converter electrical power having a converter output voltage greater than the battery second output voltage; and
outputting the converter electrical power from one or more output terminals configured to interface with one or more input terminals of a battery powered device, the converter being (a) configured and supported relative to the battery to interface with one or more output terminals of the battery, or (b) embedded within the battery, wherein the converter electrical power output is outputted via terminals of the battery."

Isn't this just a generic regulated battery pack?

Every major claim after that starts with: method for extending the life of a battery... something something.. voltage regulator... something.
The last examiner had a problem with that on the other patent, as some battery protection devices extend the life of the battery by protecting the cell from damage by use of a voltage regulator.

[ChunkyPastaSauce]

Anyone notice what seemed to be legal speak and responsibility transfer in the last batteriser update?

Dear Friends,
...
While facing the challenge of working during the Chinese New Year holiday season, two of our executive team members have been in China and Taiwan working very closely with our contract manufacturer these past few weeks. As a result of this productive collaboration and our team’s diligence, our Contract Manufacturer has confirmed their commitment to ship Batterisers this coming March. We are absolutely thrilled to be this close to having the Batteriser shipped out to all of our Indiegogo supporters. It’s been a long road, but we are more excited than ever to bring all of you extended battery life and savings to the environment. I wish you all a Happy Lunar New Year, full of blessings and joy for you and your loved ones.
....
CEO | Batteroo, Inc.

In the US, you can be sued for not performing due diligence when dealing with investor money or selling products.

State you've done due diligence -> transfer future responsibility to contract manufacture in some other country (which is either China or Taiwan or both).

[warp_foo]

Mmmm I'll have a Johnnie Worker neat!

Red Labial? 


PS: Laphroig...

Almost... Ardbeg 17

m

[Jay_Diddy_B]

Hi group,

I have had a quick look at the patent Application that was reported by ChunkyPastaSauce. There are some interesting details shown in the patent application.

The Construction

This drawing from the patent shows a very similar construction that to the one shown on the IGG campaign. It shows an insulator, or coating, item 719, to protect the electronics.



It would look very similar to the construction that I posted in this message:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg849800/#msg849800



The 9V Version

The application now includes pictures of the 9V version. This shows how the 9V version extends the length of the battery by the height of the terminals plus the thickness of the board.



Schematic

The patent application includes this schematic:



The schematic includes the body sizes of some of the components. These are similar to the ones that I used. It doesn't say how they will fit the AAA cell.

Buck-Boost

The application includes the possibility of a buck-boost architecture. This allows for the output voltage to be lowered when the battery is fresh and boosted when the battery is discharged. This requires extra semiconductors in the current path and incurring extra losses.
This would allow the output to be held constant at say 1.2V This would help with devices that use LDO regulators or a resistive load.

It also prevents circumvention of the patent by replacing the boost supply with a buck-boost.

Claims



The claims are the most important part of the patent application. There are some features listed in the claims.

Having an output that fails as the cell is discharged, but at a lower rate. This goes to make battery gauge work a little bit better than if the output voltage was held constant.

Remember this is an application. The prior application was challenged by the examiner. I have not looked to if the challenges have been addressed. But it seems the construction of the sleeve has been pushed down to higher claim numbers. The higher claims are generally less important than the first few claims.


Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

[ChunkyPastaSauce]

Remember this is an application. The prior application was challenged by the examiner. I have not looked to if the challenges have been addressed.

Checked the PAIR system earlier today, doesn't seem to to be addressed any further except the examiner formalized a non-final rejection notice (for all claims that weren't canceled). I think it's marked as non-final because of the appeal... but dunno.

[Wytnucls]

They seem to be using a variant of the Linear Technology LTC3400 (P346 on their schematics), not a proprietary converter as they claim:

http://html.alldatasheet.com/html-pdf/70868/LINER/LTC3400/126/1/LTC3400.html

[LabSpokane]

They seem to be using a variant of the Linear Technology LTC3400 (P346 on their schematics), not a proprietary converter as they claim:

http://html.alldatasheet.com/html-pdf/70868/LINER/LTC3400/126/1/LTC3400.html

I'm seeing only 600mA of output on that one. Hmmm.....

[Jay_Diddy_B]

They seem to be using a variant of the Linear Technology LTC3400 (P346 on their schematics), not a proprietary converter as they claim:

http://html.alldatasheet.com/html-pdf/70868/LINER/LTC3400/126/1/LTC3400.html

The pin number match the LTC3526L:




The first page of the datasheet suggests using this part to extend the life of batteries by discharging down to 0.5V



The LTC3526L was released in 2007. The copyright notice is on the bottom of the last page of the datasheet.

This part is good for around 200mA, o.k. for the wireless keyboard, but no good for high drain devices.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

[Wytnucls]

600mA with a 2.2uH inductor would be generous...

[Jay_Diddy_B]

They seem to be using a variant of the Linear Technology LTC3400 (P346 on their schematics), not a proprietary converter as they claim:

http://html.alldatasheet.com/html-pdf/70868/LINER/LTC3400/126/1/LTC3400.html

I'm seeing only 600mA of output on that one. Hmmm.....

The LTC3400 has a minimum output voltage of 2.5V. The output voltage is used to power the internals of the chip after start up. The 600mA is the switch current rating not the output rating. With a boost converter the switch has to be rated higher than the output current.

The LTC3400 can be ruled out.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

[Wytnucls]

Yes, the 7 pin variant is more likely. Regardless, the output current with a 2.2uH inductor will be low.