Best printer for toner transfer

[DavidKo]

You can try to use the paper which is used for stickers (for laser printers, with stickers removed) and use direct path in your printer. It should withstand the temperature and the toner will not adhere to it so much. This is more or less try and error. The transferred printing can be removed with acetone.

Since HP printers ususally have the OPC drum as a part of the toner cartridge, the quality will depend also on the cartridge.

[berke]

2 - Brother HL-L2350DW: Brothers printers don't have a good reputation (I don't know why) 

With the Brother at my old job, I tried it, but the toner adhered to the transfer paper too well, and just wouldn’t transfer onto the PCB.

I've been using a Brother MFC7440N with yellow PCB transfer paper bought from Amazon.  I think I must have made 5 to 10 small PCBs (say 50 mm) over the years.  I use a clothes iron.  I've never been really satisfied with the results.  I don't know if it's due to the printer, but what happens is that I often tear tracks when pulling the transfer paper.  That happens even if I let it soak in warm water for a while and even if I pull very carefully.  The results are still usable especially if I use a Sharpie to repair tracks before etching, but bear in mind that I use wide tracks (0.5 mm).  Sometimes repairing the transfer with a Sharpie is not feasible, and I have to wipe the toner with acetone and start over.  FWIW I etch with ferric chloride.

I still get better results than what I was getting with photoresist, but that probably just means that I'm not very good at etching PCBs.

I'd like to get a new printer anyway since the one I have is a bit old and runs on 110VAC (brought it back from Canada), but I don't want to get a crappy, spyware-ridden printer that will stop working if my credit card expires, or that gives trouble under Linux.

[tooki]

You can try to use the paper which is used for stickers (for laser printers, with stickers removed) and use direct path in your printer. It should withstand the temperature and the toner will not adhere to it so much.

That is what the toner transfer paper basically is. Just without having to waste labels.

[tooki]

2 - Brother HL-L2350DW: Brothers printers don't have a good reputation (I don't know why) 

With the Brother at my old job, I tried it, but the toner adhered to the transfer paper too well, and just wouldn’t transfer onto the PCB.

I've been using a Brother MFC7440N with yellow PCB transfer paper bought from Amazon.  I think I must have made 5 to 10 small PCBs (say 50 mm) over the years.  I use a clothes iron.  I've never been really satisfied with the results.  I don't know if it's due to the printer, but what happens is that I often tear tracks when pulling the transfer paper.

Yep, that’s what I had with the Brother toner, except I actually have a laminator. No such trouble with HP or Samsung toner.

In every case, you have to prepare the PCB surface carefully or no brand of toner will adhere well.

That happens even if I let it soak in warm water for a while and even if I pull very carefully.

Warm water isn’t used with the yellow transfer paper. Water is for when you use magazine pages and you’re literally dissolving the paper away from the toner. The yellow transfer paper has a plastic-and-silicone coated side, so the water isn’t going to interact with the toner at all… (You are printing onto the glossy side, right??)

I'd like to get a new printer anyway since the one I have is a bit old and runs on 110VAC (brought it back from Canada), but I don't want to get a crappy, spyware-ridden printer that will stop working if my credit card expires, or that gives trouble under Linux.

A printer will only stop working when your card expires if you choose to sign up for a toner subscription. Such a subscription is completely optional, and you can always use cartridges you buy at a store.

As for Linux support: just make sure you get a printer that has PCL or PostScript emulation. Those will work with anything, at least for basic functionality.

[berke]

Yep, that’s what I had with the Brother toner, except I actually have a laminator. No such trouble with HP or Samsung toner.

Do you think the laminator helps compared to an iron ?  I could try that next.

In every case, you have to prepare the PCB surface carefully or no brand of toner will adhere well.

Yes I realize that, I've been using fine sandpaper and/or cleaning it with IPA.

Warm water isn’t used with the yellow transfer paper. Water is for when you use magazine pages and you’re literally dissolving the paper away from the toner. The yellow transfer paper has a plastic-and-silicone coated side, so the water isn’t going to interact with the toner at all… (You are printing onto the glossy side, right??)

Oh OK, I wasn't sure about the water.  I tried peeling it dry once.  It did indeed seem that water doesn't help much.

Yes of course I print on the glossy side.

A printer will only stop working when your card expires if you choose to sign up for a toner subscription. Such a subscription is completely optional, and you can always use cartridges you buy at a store.

Wait that "printer stops when your card expires" thing wasn't just an urban legend ?

As for Linux support: just make sure you get a printer that has PCL or PostScript emulation. Those will work with anything, at least for basic functionality.

Actually printing hasn't given me trouble actually with CUPS/IPP, but for example I got a newer Brother for the wife, when I scan using it with Sane I get lossy JPEG images.  I did spend some time getting into the details of the IPP capabilities and tried requesting different formats, but I always ended up with poor quality, lossy scans.  I don't have such issues with the MFC7440, but that one needs the Brother drivers, which of course are ancient binaries incompatible with modern systems so I have to use a virtual machine with an old copy of Debian.

Maybe those issues disappear if you get a "business grade" device, but I don't feel like spending more than a couple k on a printer.

[moffy]

Since I have my microscope camera working, I thought I would show a couple of photos of a recent PCB I made by toner transfer. The whitish sections of the photos are actually the black toner reflecting the microscope light. The minimum track width is 10mil, with reasonably clean edges. My printer is a Kyocera P2040dw. Please excuse the quality, as I took the easy route and used my phone to snap the screen of the microscope camera output.

[freda]

I don't know if it's due to the printer, but what happens is that I often tear tracks when pulling the transfer paper. 

I still get better results than what I was getting with photoresist, but that probably just means that I'm not very good at etching PCBs.

Its tearing that happens when you use the iron.
I use the yellow paper (cheap from aliexpress now),
print on the shiny side
I usually get round to organizing a bunch of boards on A4 size
For each board leave enough space on 2 sides.
I don't cut the paper to the exact size of the pcb, but longer on 2 sides.
The extra, form a tab that i fold over the board, then sticky tape it.
Now iron it.
Hot iron, i think is about 210degC
Firm and only needs a few passes.
I use an old ancient iron, mum probably used it in the 50ties, lol. Its heavy all by itself.
I still stick it in a bath of water after, more out of habit, but maybe helps, at that stage rather not guess just continue with what i did before, its not that much more trouble.

I've used HP printer in past, now use Brother HL-L2375DW very successfully.
Except I fire up the old laptop with WinXP to print it.
The linux driver just doesn't quite work, not sure about it.

still, its never worked as well as photoresist (positive). but i seem unable to get good
positive photoresist these days.
its also very troublesome to do those transparency prints.

[berke]

Its tearing that happens when you use the iron.

Could be, even though I've tried to be careful.  If you iron too much, you distort the tracks.  If you don't iron enough, it tears when you pull the transfer paper.

I think I'm gonna give laminators a shot.

Would PCBs be too thick for common laminators?

[moffy]

Its tearing that happens when you use the iron.
I think I'm gonna give laminators a shot.

Would PCBs be too thick for common laminators?

I have used this laminator ( https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/224839360612?hash=item3459786064:g:l8YAAOSwckFfz0Th&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4NrVUalz1rQ4rjR9nAF9ZCgxbBTvVxV6U2zNG63mBkY9VQEUJOz6pRr%2FxpFilE2%2BDrkD8zR1fTQTGqo%2BqRKbiEDHykUUE9kNNyEwzi0xPc1m46v8F2z9yE0qE1ucFmBY%2FzKrfFC1hLFonyYEInSHMkMLFlhoMzBxOF1bcogrpW2wbcIWECZt%2BX%2FXFzrWp%2FbuDw3QtzlBJRKsS%2BMcFnd%2BmKb5%2B%2BAqm1VDRF0gSNyWprla2FZkxewN0VcwXgG38E94INQtZ2ke%2BOrQtpfAwu8eaAoY04EBoAYPKqT4sdc4FWmN%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR_7d5rH3YQ ) with 100% success on PCBs. Temp set to 190C and 5-7 passes, let the pcb cool then peel and 100% toner transfer. I also use the yellow toner transfer paper.

[berke]

Its tearing that happens when you use the iron.
I think I'm gonna give laminators a shot.

Would PCBs be too thick for common laminators?

I have used this laminator ( https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/224839360612?hash=item3459786064:g:l8YAAOSwckFfz0Th&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4NrVUalz1rQ4rjR9nAF9ZCgxbBTvVxV6U2zNG63mBkY9VQEUJOz6pRr%2FxpFilE2%2BDrkD8zR1fTQTGqo%2BqRKbiEDHykUUE9kNNyEwzi0xPc1m46v8F2z9yE0qE1ucFmBY%2FzKrfFC1hLFonyYEInSHMkMLFlhoMzBxOF1bcogrpW2wbcIWECZt%2BX%2FXFzrWp%2FbuDw3QtzlBJRKsS%2BMcFnd%2BmKb5%2B%2BAqm1VDRF0gSNyWprla2FZkxewN0VcwXgG38E94INQtZ2ke%2BOrQtpfAwu8eaAoY04EBoAYPKqT4sdc4FWmN%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR_7d5rH3YQ ) with 100% success on PCBs. Temp set to 190C and 5-7 passes, let the pcb cool then peel and 100% toner transfer. I also use the yellow toner transfer paper.

That looks like a good deal.

Do you know if you would get good results at 180°C?

Here I see mostly 20-40 euro junk on Amazon and office supply stores, some of them have thickness specs of max 0.5 mm.  Then you jump to 3000 euro machines.
 
But among all that crap I found this https://www.amazon.fr/PrimeMatik-Laminateur-Thermique-Plastifieuse-Document/dp/B07C3C6YT3/ref=sr_1_51?__mk_fr_FR=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&crid=FAY208T95WIU&keywords=plastifieuse&qid=1682499059&refinements=p_36%3A193647031&rnid=193642031&s=officeproduct&sprefix=plastifieuse%2Caps%2C153&sr=1-51
 which seems to be pretty close to your model except for the temperature indicator.

It only goes to 180°C per its knob graduations.  Maybe the government here doesn't trust us with high-temperature laminators!

Do you know if 180°C would do it?

[moffy]

Its tearing that happens when you use the iron.
I think I'm gonna give laminators a shot.

Would PCBs be too thick for common laminators?

I have used this laminator ( https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/224839360612?hash=item3459786064:g:l8YAAOSwckFfz0Th&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4NrVUalz1rQ4rjR9nAF9ZCgxbBTvVxV6U2zNG63mBkY9VQEUJOz6pRr%2FxpFilE2%2BDrkD8zR1fTQTGqo%2BqRKbiEDHykUUE9kNNyEwzi0xPc1m46v8F2z9yE0qE1ucFmBY%2FzKrfFC1hLFonyYEInSHMkMLFlhoMzBxOF1bcogrpW2wbcIWECZt%2BX%2FXFzrWp%2FbuDw3QtzlBJRKsS%2BMcFnd%2BmKb5%2B%2BAqm1VDRF0gSNyWprla2FZkxewN0VcwXgG38E94INQtZ2ke%2BOrQtpfAwu8eaAoY04EBoAYPKqT4sdc4FWmN%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR_7d5rH3YQ ) with 100% success on PCBs. Temp set to 190C and 5-7 passes, let the pcb cool then peel and 100% toner transfer. I also use the yellow toner transfer paper.

That looks like a good deal.

Do you know if you would get good results at 180°C?

Here I see mostly 20-40 euro junk on Amazon and office supply stores, some of them have thickness specs of max 0.5 mm.  Then you jump to 3000 euro machines.
 
But among all that crap I found this https://www.amazon.fr/PrimeMatik-Laminateur-Thermique-Plastifieuse-Document/dp/B07C3C6YT3/ref=sr_1_51?__mk_fr_FR=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&crid=FAY208T95WIU&keywords=plastifieuse&qid=1682499059&refinements=p_36%3A193647031&rnid=193642031&s=officeproduct&sprefix=plastifieuse%2Caps%2C153&sr=1-51
 which seems to be pretty close to your model except for the temperature indicator.

It only goes to 180°C per its knob graduations.  Maybe the government here doesn't trust us with high-temperature laminators!

Do you know if 180°C would do it?

Looks very similar, I'm pretty sure that 180C would work, you might just have to run it through once or twice more.

[SilverSolder]

Its tearing that happens when you use the iron.
I think I'm gonna give laminators a shot.

Would PCBs be too thick for common laminators?

I have used this laminator ( https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/224839360612?hash=item3459786064:g:l8YAAOSwckFfz0Th&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4NrVUalz1rQ4rjR9nAF9ZCgxbBTvVxV6U2zNG63mBkY9VQEUJOz6pRr%2FxpFilE2%2BDrkD8zR1fTQTGqo%2BqRKbiEDHykUUE9kNNyEwzi0xPc1m46v8F2z9yE0qE1ucFmBY%2FzKrfFC1hLFonyYEInSHMkMLFlhoMzBxOF1bcogrpW2wbcIWECZt%2BX%2FXFzrWp%2FbuDw3QtzlBJRKsS%2BMcFnd%2BmKb5%2B%2BAqm1VDRF0gSNyWprla2FZkxewN0VcwXgG38E94INQtZ2ke%2BOrQtpfAwu8eaAoY04EBoAYPKqT4sdc4FWmN%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR_7d5rH3YQ ) with 100% success on PCBs. Temp set to 190C and 5-7 passes, let the pcb cool then peel and 100% toner transfer. I also use the yellow toner transfer paper.

I use a very similar looking model, with a digital display.  (I'd rather have the analog one, lol)

It works really well, and - after opening it up based on the "Take it apart" eevblog philosophy -  I found it to be quite well made inside, with heavy duty metal gears etc., significantly better than I expected for the price.

[moffy]

This is probably the best board I have done, toner transfer wise. I changed 2 settings in the printer driver: 1. High Quality (why I didn't do it before, no idea) 2. Half speed. The print to the eye looked great and when the board was etched the line edges appeared sharper. Minimum track size is 24mil, the minimum pad border looks to be around 6mil.

[berke]

For the record, I bought a cheap South American River Basics laminator, however it wouldn't accept 1.6 mm PCBs.  This was just a matter of opening it and modifying its internal plastic guides.  Those guides were preventing the PCB from making its way.  I trimmed them with a cutter knife.  After that, a gentle push is all it takes for the laminator to accept the PCB.

I managed to get decent transfers provided I run the PCB through the laminator about 15 times as suggested, shifting the horizontal position to even out the heat load.

Now I need to conjure a better etching tank.

[Conrad Hoffman]

I used to use my original HP Laserjet 5p. It worked OK, but there are so many inexpensive PCB sources these days I can't be bothered doing my own. I just replaced the Laserjet after 28 years, with a new Brother HL-L2370DW XL. Print quality is good but they caution against using almost anything other than standard non-inkjet paper. I'd be nervous putting transfer paper through it. HP made really good stuff back in 1995, but after 28 years plastic bits were breaking off and I had had it open for service multiple times. It was also painfully slow for graphics.

[berke]

I used to use my original HP Laserjet 5p. It worked OK, but there are so many inexpensive PCB sources these days I can't be bothered doing my own.

I wouldn't bother either f I could get the boards as quickly as I get the components, but it's around 20 to 50 bucks and two weeks basically.

I just replaced the Laserjet after 28 years, with a new Brother HL-L2370DW XL. Print quality is good but they caution against using almost anything other than standard non-inkjet paper. I'd be nervous putting transfer paper through it.

FWIW I'm using a Brother MFC7440N.  The transfer paper I have is yellow with one smooth side, it looks very much like label backing paper.  (It's not the water-soluble "dextrose" kind.)  According to Brother https://support.brother.com/g/b/spec.aspx?c=ca&lang=en&prod=hll2370dw_us your printer too can accept label backing paper ("Plain Paper, Thin Paper, Thick Paper, Thicker Paper, Recycled Paper, Bond, Label, Envelope, Env. Thin, Env.Thick".), so I wouldn't be afraid of trying transfer paper if I were you.

[scopeman]

Hello,

Well I went out and bought a Kyocera P2040dw and boy does it lay down the toner. The picture of the board (a control board for the TruLam 320B) that I am making to improve the performance of the laminator. It is from a Hackaday article. I did this using Staples Photo paper but I think that the yellow transfer paper would be the way to go. I have ordered some and the green toner transfer film but that material is a week or so away. The smallest thin line text you see in the picture is 1.3mm high and about 7mills in line thickness. The traces are something like 30 mils. The artwork is for the most part unchanged from the original artwork. I imported the Gerbers into SprintLayout6.0 and then increased the pad sizes and the track sizes and made a few small edits. I also made all of the holes 15mils just for the manual drilling process.

Now for my problem:

I found a video on YouTube (Russian I believe) where the person uses a mix of Citric Acid and Hydrogen Peroxide. The problem is I can't find out what the ratios should be for proper etching. I really would like to have this work as disposal would be easy just dilute and flush. Much better than FeCL2 or one of the persulfates.

I'm not sure that this is even the right place to post this but if anyone has suggestions I am all ears!

See below for a link to the hackaday article.
https://hackaday.io/project/3363-apache-al13p-tl-320b-one-pass-pcb-toner-xfer

Sam
W3OHM

[berke]

Hello,

Well I went out and bought a Kyocera P2040dw and boy does it lay down the toner. The picture of the board (a control board for the TruLam 320B) that I am making to improve the performance of the laminator. It is from a Hackaday article. I did this using Staples Photo paper but I think that the yellow transfer paper would be the way to go. I have ordered some and the green toner transfer film but that material is a week or so away.

Hi, good to know about that model of printer, if my Brother ever breaks down I might look into that.  That laminator looks neat, did you have to modify it to be able to introduce PCBs?  Do you have to do multiple passes?

Now for my problem:

I found a video on YouTube (Russian I believe) where the person uses a mix of Citric Acid and Hydrogen Peroxide. The problem is I can't find out what the ratios should be for proper etching. I really would like to have this work as disposal would be easy just dilute and flush. Much better than FeCL2 or one of the persulfates.

I don't understand what the big deal about disposing ferric chloride is.  First a given quantity goes a long way.  Second, you can mix the unwanted etchant with plaster, let it solidify and then toss it in the general trash.  Third, what's the chemistry of used citric acid + H2O2?  Won't it contain copper ions as well?  It may not eat your drain pipes but could be toxic for some lifeforms.

Citric acid is easy to find but for hydrogen peroxide don't you need a certain grade or concentration of H2O2?  I think the kind sold in pharmacies is too weak for etching and has stabilizers added to prevent off-label use.

[scopeman]

Thank you for your comments.

I just etched a board using ratios of 30G Citric Acid, 100G Hydrogen Peroxide and 5G Table Salt elevated to 50C.

It works, but the tradeoff is that it's slow.

I guess I have to either go with Muratic Acid or fall back onto the more conventional Sodium Persulfate/Mercuric Chloride or just Ferric Chloride as you suggest.

Maybe it's not such a big deal. I was just trying to find something easily attainable.


Sam