Siglent Technical Support join in EEVblog

[tautech]

Feature Suggestions for the SDG-2000X:

1. allow a modulating wave shape (MDSP) for FSK so that a square wave signal can be uploaded to modulate an arbitrary bit sequence (example: "C1:MDWV FSK,MDSP, ARB")
2. allow the modulator to use the other channel as the signal source (example: "C2:MDWV PWM,MDSP, C1")

Right now the FSK modulation feature is rather limited.  One can only modulate a simple square wave or it requires using an external source.  It seems like an oversight not to allow an uploaded wave form to modulate the FSK signal.

Rob

You will at time see member Siglent viewing this thread and at other times a # of guests; their staff.
They WILL see anything posted here.

[anubis801]

Hi everyone,

I had my old channel deleted.
Here is the video in my new youtube channel.


Enjoy!

[tautech]

Hi everyone,

I had my old channel deleted.
Here is the video in my new youtube channel.
Enjoy!

Thanks, can you please also place a link to it here as it's most relevant to the SDG1000 and 800 models:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-sdg1000-and-sdg800-thread/

[StillTrying]

Electro Detective is not the only one that thinks Siglent's DSO firmware updating is a mess.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-cml-firmware/msg1197684/#msg1197684

Confusion with the filenames, is there info in the filename?
Confusion with cfg files, where are they?
Confusion over whether or not you can jump over a version.
The Change Log. LOL
Are they trying to support different (possibly undocumented) hardware versions, different bootloader versions?
Does the firmware do any basic checks to check the hardware is compatible?

At least you don't have to worry about the power going off during the 2 minutes of upgrading - that's the least of your worries. 

[Electro Detective]

Electro Detective is not the only one that thinks Siglent's DSO firmware updating is a mess.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-cml-firmware/msg1197684/#msg1197684

Confusion with the filenames, is there info in the filename?
Confusion with cfg files, where are they?
Confusion over whether or not you can jump over a version.
The Change Log. LOL
Are they trying to support different (possibly undocumented) hardware versions, different bootloader versions?
Does the firmware do any basic checks to check the hardware is compatible?

At least you don't have to worry about the power going off during the 2 minutes of upgrading - that's the least of your worries. 

Thanks mate      relieved to see I'm not flying solo on this   

[MrW0lf]

Link to bricked SDG2042X issue:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-siglent-sdg2042x-thread/msg1203573/#msg1203573
Culprit is either 23R3 firmware, loading custom arb wfm at boot or combination of both...
Maybe A-team can help... 

[Electro Fan]

@Electro Detective
How did you update config? This last update package do not have config file at all. 

There is long way from 5.01xxxx   to 5.03xxxx.  Perhaps there is some previous update what have included also config update file. I do not know but I feel that perhaps this version jump is too big and it need first do some intermediate update before this last version. I do not remember what all versions have included needed new cnf file. Perhaps before this last update it first need some previous version update, example: SDS1000CFL_4CH  Version: 5.03.02.12 | Published?2014-09-26. There is also new config for 5.03xxxx versions.

But, I do not know if you can now downgrade and update this previous version first before last version or do it now need some "trick".
I recommend to contact Siglent China Engineer who know what and how to do now. Best that do not try enything before get real information based to real knowledge. (Siglent Engineer) For avoid more problems.

Maybe the Siglent firmware notes should say whether you can jump over versions or need specific intermediate versions.

[Siglent America]

@Electro Detective
How did you update config? This last update package do not have config file at all. 

There is long way from 5.01xxxx   to 5.03xxxx.  Perhaps there is some previous update what have included also config update file. I do not know but I feel that perhaps this version jump is too big and it need first do some intermediate update before this last version. I do not remember what all versions have included needed new cnf file. Perhaps before this last update it first need some previous version update, example: SDS1000CFL_4CH  Version: 5.03.02.12 | Published?2014-09-26. There is also new config for 5.03xxxx versions.

But, I do not know if you can now downgrade and update this previous version first before last version or do it now need some "trick".
I recommend to contact Siglent China Engineer who know what and how to do now. Best that do not try enything before get real information based to real knowledge. (Siglent Engineer) For avoid more problems.

Maybe the Siglent firmware notes should say whether you can jump over versions or need specific intermediate versions.

Actually, this is something that we have started doing but we will remind those involved of the importance of it. Some product families have probably been better than others.
Thanks for the reminder.

[Electro Fan]

@Electro Detective
How did you update config? This last update package do not have config file at all. 

There is long way from 5.01xxxx   to 5.03xxxx.  Perhaps there is some previous update what have included also config update file. I do not know but I feel that perhaps this version jump is too big and it need first do some intermediate update before this last version. I do not remember what all versions have included needed new cnf file. Perhaps before this last update it first need some previous version update, example: SDS1000CFL_4CH  Version: 5.03.02.12 | Published?2014-09-26. There is also new config for 5.03xxxx versions.

But, I do not know if you can now downgrade and update this previous version first before last version or do it now need some "trick".
I recommend to contact Siglent China Engineer who know what and how to do now. Best that do not try enything before get real information based to real knowledge. (Siglent Engineer) For avoid more problems.

Maybe the Siglent firmware notes should say whether you can jump over versions or need specific intermediate versions.

Actually, this is something that we have started doing but we will remind those involved of the importance of it. Some product families have probably been better than others.
Thanks for the reminder.

Thanks for the very fast reply.

FWIW, the page at the following link would probably be a good place to post the guidance on which firmware versions can be updated from which other firmware versions: 

http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-gjjrj.aspx?id=1364&tid=16&T=2

But when you click on HistoryVersion the page comes up saying:  Information not found!

If you download the latest firmware you get some release notes saying what was in each release but no guidance regarding what versions can be updated from what previous versions.

Both the download page (at the link above) and the download itself should advise a user if there is a need for interim version updates.

Also, since .cfg files are sometimes required and sometimes not, the notion of whether a .cfg file is required or not should be explicit, ie, the notes should either say "a .cfg file is REQUIRED with this update" or say "a .cfg file is NOT REQUIRED with this update" (rather than "If a CFG file is not included with a firmware update then it will not be required for that update").

And for completeness, perhaps a note should be included saying whether downgrades to earlier versions are allowed, and under what conditions (from what versions to what versions).

PS, while it would be great to fix up the documentation asap, it's probably a higher priority to help MrW0lf at the link below get his SDG2042X restarted (I wouldn't want this post to get ahead of his request for help).  EF
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-technical-support-join-in-eevblog/msg1203657/#msg1203657

[Siglent America]

Thanks.
Actually, our upgrade path's are normally located in the FW upgrade file itself. There is a PDF with instructions. The entire filed is compressed into a .RAR file.

We are working on some website upgrades and we planning for improvements.
Stay tuned!

[Electro Detective]

Thanks.
Actually, our upgrade path's are normally located in the FW upgrade file itself. There is a PDF with instructions. The entire filed is compressed into a .RAR file.

We are working on some website upgrades and we planning for improvements.
Stay tuned!

Stay tuned!?  to what frequency?   

instead of making Siglent fans drool over new models and "website upgrades and we planning for improvements"  I suggest it's GOOD/BETTER/BEST BUSINESS practice you make it a top priority to sort out this FIRMWARE FIASCO immediately for your customers who digged DEEP in their pockets and went for Siglent products rather than the competing Rigol and Hanteks etc,

and to relieve the pressure off your concerned loyal hard working distributors and dealers, doing unpaid hard time on EEVblog currently acting as excuse buffers, for Siglent's firmware packages scattered at random on Siglent support pages, with questionable performance and poor documentation. 

Packages enclosed in RAR files which should also be offered as bog standard zip files as well. 

PLEASE CONSIDER !!! 

[StillTrying]

Electro Detective, I think rars are OK.

While we're giving Siglent a hard time, what does "our upgrade path's are normally located in the FW upgrade file itself."  actually mean.

[Electro Detective]

Electro Detective, I think rars are OK.

While we're giving Siglent a hard time, what does "our upgrade path's are normally located in the FW upgrade file itself."  actually mean.

What it implies and should mean, is if they did their update file homework properly, the current 'FW upgrade' should bring the unit's firmware version to the latest revision, regardless of the version currently on the unit.

and if this is not the case (and who really knows ATM) and it needs to be done in consecutive firmware update steps, then it is the manufacturer's RESPONSIBILITY to inform the end user of the correct sequence, to avoid either bricking the unit or introducing erratic performance, which in turn breaks balls for everyone, including the dealer distributor who has to play unpaid gas negotiator.

This is kiddie stuff, it shouldn't be happening at this level of product manufacture and release in 2017   

 

[Electro Fan]

FWIW, the most recent SDG2000X firmware upgrade comes in a .rar file.  When you unpack that file it gives you a file that is the actual .ads update file (with no .cfg file for this particular update), and it gives you a "Firmware Revise History & Update Instructions" .pdf file.  In the .pdf file is a chronological listing of the updates with file name and date, and for each file is a list of the features or bugs addressed including descriptions of the features or bug fixes.  However, there is no mention of what updates can be applied with or without previous updates.  To be clear, listing the firmware updates in order of release is not the same as specifying which updates can be applied regardless of previous firmware status and which updates require one or more interim updates.  This might not seem like a big distinction, but for a user bricking an update the experience becomes a frustrating loss of time in trying to correct the problem along with a loss of the productive use of the product, and for Siglent and it's distributors it only adds work and cost while potentially jeopardizing future sales.

Siglent, I think what users are saying is that while it is impressive that rf-loop and tautech and others are offering their best possible assistance to Siglent users and potential Siglent users around the world, it would be helpful if the firmware updates had better documentation. 

As Electro Detective (no relationship to Electro Fan, whatsoever) has said:  it is the manufacturer's RESPONSIBILITY to inform the end user of the correct sequence, to avoid either bricking the unit or introducing erratic performance.

FWIW, I've just made the decision to purchase a SDG2042X so I don't have any experience yet with the product, but in looking ahead to possibly having to update the firmware in a unit that has possibly been sitting in a distributor's inventory for awhile, I think there is room for improvement in how firmware updates are documented.  The good news as I see it is that 1) the SDG2K is capable of offering very good features and performance and 2) it looks like Siglent has been providing firmware updates about every 3-6 months.  So why not capitalize on all the good work that has gone into designing, manufacturing, distributing, and supporting this product (and other Siglent products) by improving the documentation (for both the product manuals and the updates)?

Hoping to become a Siglent fan, EF

[tautech]

FWIW, the most recent SDG2000X firmware upgrade comes in a .rar file.  When you unpack that file it gives you a file that is the actual .ads update file (with no .cfg file for this particular update), and it gives you a "Firmware Revise History & Update Instructions" .pdf file.  In the .pdf file is a chronological listing of the updates with file name and date, and for each file is a list of the features or bugs addressed including descriptions of the features or bug fixes.  However, there is no mention of what updates can be applied with or without previous updates.  To be clear, listing the firmware updates in order of release is not the same as specifying which updates can be applied regardless of previous firmware status and which updates require one or more interim updates.  This might not seem like a big distinction, but for a user bricking an update the experience becomes a frustrating loss of time in trying to correct the problem along with a loss of the productive use of the product, and for Siglent and it's distributors it only adds work and cost while potentially jeopardizing future sales.

Cfg files are only offered when considerable change to the OS/UI are needed in units and when this happens (rarely) the FW install instructions are quite clear as to the procedure that MUST be followed for all the intended changes to take place.
TBH I've never had an update fail and I've done hundreds to many many models.

Siglent, I think what users are saying is that while it is impressive that rf-loop and tautech and others are offering their best possible assistance to Siglent users and potential Siglent users around the world, it would be helpful if the firmware updates had better documentation. 

Thank you.
Please understand it was only a couple of years back we did not have FW changelogs and after much nagging by us and customers most changes are now documented.
This can still be improved some, Siglent are still learning their trade in this respect and comments in the changelog like: Fixed some bugs are not entirely helpful.

As Electro Detective (no relationship to Electro Fan, whatsoever) has said:  it is the manufacturer's RESPONSIBILITY to inform the end user of the correct sequence, to avoid either bricking the unit or introducing erratic performance.

Yes.

Why these things happen I am at a loss to understand, the only suggestion I can offer is to return all units to factory default before installing updates.
This is not documented but as I have zero problems with new equipment FW upgrades before they are dispatched I wonder if this may be the issue.
Before you say Siglent needed to have checked the FW before release, think about this; how many user setups and control conditions would need to be individually checked before guaranteeing no problems will exist after updating the FW ?
I intend to explore this with tech support and maybe have some instruction in future FW to say: return to factory default before updating.

FWIW, I've just made the decision to purchase a SDG2042X so I don't have any experience yet with the product, but in looking ahead to possibly having to update the firmware in a unit that has possibly been sitting in a distributor's inventory for awhile, I think there is room for improvement in how firmware updates are documented.  The good news as I see it is that 1) the SDG2K is capable of offering very good features and performance and 2) it looks like Siglent has been providing firmware updates about every 3-6 months.  So why not capitalize on all the good work that has gone into designing, manufacturing, distributing, and supporting this product (and other Siglent products) by improving the documentation (for both the product manuals and the updates)?

There is certainly the possibility a new unit may come with older FW especially if it's been in stock for a while.
OTOH, all units that I've received for probably the last 6 months have had the latest FW already installed and this saves me a lot of time but I still check every unit.

The owners of these units also deserve great thanks for the contribution of ideas and improvements that have been subsequently incorporated over some time. Not all these have been documented in previous user manuals and for those that haven't spotted it there's a new User manual for SDG2kX released just a few days ago.
http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/UserManual/SDG2000X_UserManual_UM0202X-E02B.pdf

Hoping to become a Siglent fan, EF

We and Siglent hope to keep you as one.

[kcbrown]

Why these things happen I am at a loss to understand, the only suggestion I can offer is to return all units to factory default before installing updates.
This is not documented but as I have zero problems with new equipment FW upgrades before they are dispatched I wonder if this may be the issue.
Before you say Siglent needed to have checked the FW before release, think about this; how many user setups and control conditions would need to be individually checked before guaranteeing no problems will exist after updating the FW ?
I intend to explore this with tech support and maybe have some instruction in future FW to say: return to factory default before updating.

If the device's configuration can cause the update process to fail, then the firmware update mechanism should must restore the factory defaults at the very beginning of the upgrade process, and the firmware update instructions should make it clear that this is what will happen.  Obviously, then, the unit should provide a way to save and restore the unit's configuration, and it should do it in such a way as to make it difficult for the firmware to improperly set things up after the upgrade (the easiest way to ensure this is to use a text file to represent the configuration, which will force the firmware to parse the configuration file so that, at least, you don't wind up with otherwise-impossible settings resulting from some binary file mixup like you easily could if the settings file were just a memory dump or something).

[tautech]

Why these things happen I am at a loss to understand, the only suggestion I can offer is to return all units to factory default before installing updates.
This is not documented but as I have zero problems with new equipment FW upgrades before they are dispatched I wonder if this may be the issue.
Before you say Siglent needed to have checked the FW before release, think about this; how many user setups and control conditions would need to be individually checked before guaranteeing no problems will exist after updating the FW ?
I intend to explore this with tech support and maybe have some instruction in future FW to say: return to factory default before updating.

If the device's configuration can cause the update process to fail, then the firmware update mechanism should must restore the factory defaults at the very beginning of the upgrade process, and the firmware update instructions should make it clear that this is what will happen.  Obviously, then, the unit should provide a way to save and restore the unit's configuration, and it should do it in such a way as to make it difficult for the firmware to improperly set things up after the upgrade (the easiest way to ensure this is to use a text file to represent the configuration, which will force the firmware to parse the configuration file so that, at least, you don't wind up with otherwise-impossible settings resulting from some binary file mixup like you easily could if the settings file were just a memory dump or something).

Currently all user settings are lost when FW is updated and when it's complete the factory defaults are activated.

Yep, we need explore this more.

[Electro Detective]

Excellent points and clarification from the gents comments above 

Speaking strictly for myself: I'm more than willing to blow out ALL existing user setups and control conditions and whatever, reboot the unit a couple of times,
to give it a fighting chance to revert to Day 1 firmware, and then apply the update, or updates in sequence, whatever the case may be.

This has always worked for me with digital devices, including computers, phones, cameras etc etc 

I do not expect the manufacturer and their software staff stressing with extra 'what if we do this?' code, to try to save user preferences on a vital software/firmware update, when it's far more important to have the DSO in an updated refined usable state,  scrubbing EVERYTHING in the process. 

Tough titties on lost user presets and setups        , just do them again,
you would have to anyway on a new unit or if the current DSO got fried or stolen,
or work colleague or boss screwed with your settings (people that deserve a long 'time out' on a well used kitty litter)

[tautech]

ED, have you had contact from Trio ?
If not, to hurry the process for a solution try PM'ing them:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?u=110901

Give them as much detail as you can and point them to the appropriate post/s to help them fully understand your issues.

[Electro Detective]

Thanks but I'm in no hurry, as I know the coming ordeal is going to be a long haul, 
explaining, documenting, sending off the unit, getting it back worse than when it left or unchanged,
neanderthal couriers trashing it and the blame game that follows,
the endless emails back and forth, waiting for responses from Siglent, etc etc etc
NO THANKS !!!

It probably needs a firmware nuke back to Day 1, and the correct file/s and instructions to do it properly.

I am convinced the files posted at Siglent were not specific as to WHICH CFL series the firmwares belonged to.

The support site is confusing and could use a coding nuke too and proper update. Hire someone that knows what they are doing, not clueless relatives, friends or whoever works cheap.

It's my first and last DSO, I've put back an honest analogue storage cro back in it's place on the bench. I need to get work done.   

Buggy or half@$$ed firmware DSOs are officially an expensive bookend at best for me.
If I don't need to see 4 audio sine waves at once or capture a 10hz distorted pulse, it can stay in the box
or hit Ebay with full 'selling because...' disclosure for the bidders.

The DSO novelty is GONE for me, I can live without pretty trace colours, wide screen, USB, and praying there's enough dots to complete a signal trace.

------------------

Besides I need a 'support' break after the last 2 encounters with *luke 'engineers', their email staff and their distributors,
on two separate SIMPLE issues regarding their meters

Football scores at the end of that game:   

BS: 1 

Resolution: 0

 

[Siglent America]

Here is an example from the SDS1000X/X+ latest FW update. This is from the history & update instructions file located inside the RAR:


Update instructions
- Very important! You must perform the update twice in order to update the oscilloscope from 1.1.1.2.6 (or lower) to 1.1.1.2.13R3 (or higher).The first time will update from 1.1.1.2.6 to 1.1.1.2.13R3, while the second time will update from 1.1.1.2.13R3 to 1.1.1.2.13R3.
 
- Very important! Because 1.1.1.2.15 optimizes self- calibration for the each channel, the oscilloscope will need to perform a self-calibration once if the machine is updated from 1.1.1.2.13R5 (or lower) to 1.1.1.2.15 (or higher)

[Electro Fan]

Siglent, the detailed firmware information provided on this oscilloscope model looks really good; this level of detail is very useful and helpful. 

As noted it appears that some product lines have more detailed documentation than others within the overall product family.  Maybe someone from Siglent could help MrW0lf (and possibly other users or potential users) with some more detailed guidance on the firmware user name and password process he is working through with the most recent firmware update (as being discussed over in the Siglent SDG2042X Thread)?  Thx

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-siglent-sdg2042x-thread/msg1204362/#msg1204362

[Siglent America]

Siglent, the detailed firmware information provided on this oscilloscope model looks really good; this level of detail is very useful and helpful. 

As noted it appears that some product lines have more detailed documentation than others within the overall product family.  Maybe someone from Siglent could help MrW0lf (and possibly other users or potential users) with some more detailed guidance on the firmware user name and password process he is working through with the most recent firmware update (as being discussed over in the Siglent SDG2042X Thread)?  Thx

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-siglent-sdg2042x-thread/msg1204362/#msg1204362

Thank you, Electro Fan.

We did reach out to one of the people in this thread via PM who was having a problem.
Anyone can also write to us here at our USA office at
info@Siglent.com

We are still working on ways to improve procedures and decimating information. We have made improvements but we are still working on it.

[Electro Detective]

Siglent, the detailed firmware information provided on this oscilloscope model looks really good; this level of detail is very useful and helpful. 

As noted it appears that some product lines have more detailed documentation than others within the overall product family.  Maybe someone from Siglent could help MrW0lf (and possibly other users or potential users) with some more detailed guidance on the firmware user name and password process he is working through with the most recent firmware update (as being discussed over in the Siglent SDG2042X Thread)?  Thx

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-siglent-sdg2042x-thread/msg1204362/#msg1204362

Thank you, Electro Fan.

We did reach out to one of the people in this thread via PM who was having a problem.
Anyone can also write to us here at our USA office at
info@Siglent.com

We are still working on ways to improve procedures and decimating information. We have made improvements but we are still working on it.

I'm the 'that guy' who was having the problem,

and would like to thank Siglent America and crew, and the local dealer stepping in, for sorting the issue out asap 

The communication was as good as it gets, and a few days later was emailed an attachment with the 'missing' .CFG file (not included in the latest firmware update package applied weeks ago) with clear instructions and illustration in a PDF file of how to apply it. 

The DSO is now up to scratch, and doing the 4 channel dedicated controls plus independent trigger business I need it for  (and glad again I didn't get the Rigol equivalent)   


If Siglent have learned something from this, and blow some days backtracking and sorting through ALL their support pages to verify the download packages offered to customers are complete, and make sense to the average layman/woman/lay-tech,

the only fallout I can envisage from this grand, unpaid, labor of love effort is:

1. Less or no more unnecessary support problems, or time wasted for EVERYONE

2. More confidence in buying Siglent

3. More Siglent orders and test gear SOLD

4. Combination of the above

5. Did I miss anything?   

[colorado.rob]

Does the SDS2000X series (I'm interested in the SDS2204X) support LXI on the LAN port?  If so, is the SCPI command set documented somewhere?