If you agree with the above (current flows into the left hand side of the capacitor, and that current is flowing out of the right hand side of the capacitor, as it is being charged and both current flows stop when capacitor is fully charged) then you agree that during that time energy was flowing through the capacitor.
FTFY.
I sort of get frustrated and annoyed of explaining what in/out and trough means.
You can not charge a capacitor by just connecting one of the terminals.
(heck this might be possible with just baking foil separated by tissues, I might give it a try!)
So current is going into, but it's not? And it's going through, but it's not? And energy is going into, but it's also not?
It seems you can't produce a coherent description of any of the particulars in these matters, in addition to use of the above words... at least not in terms that anyone else can make any meaning of. If it's so frustrating and annoying, then... why bother?
You know the phrase, "better to be thought a fool..."?
Tim
Yes. This will work. Make a four-layer capacitor with foil and paper. Charge the outer two layers. You will then be able to extract energy from the capacitor formed by the inner two layers.
QuoteYou don't call wires, capacitors, coils and antennae "Maxwell stuff" do you?Why not? Will they get offended?
QuoteWell you say energy flows through vacuum just to mock engineers, why can't I say it flows through wires?You don't get it. I AM an engineer. If you want to contradict the experimental data, knock yourself out.
I don't, I'm just saying energy flows through wires, which contradicts no experimental data whatsoever.
If there were experimental data supporting the energy part of the slogan "Wires transfer charge. Space transfers energy." we would have known about them and they would be in books.
The question of where the energy is stored in an electric field has not yet been answered. Potential energy can never be pinned down precisely in terms of physical location. Someone lifts a pencil, and the pencil acquires potential energy. Is the energy stored in the molecules of the pencil, in the gravitational field between the pencil and the earth, or in some obscure place? Is the energy in a capacitor stored in the charges themselves, in the field, or where? No one can offer any proof for his or her own private opinion, and the matter of deciding may be left to the philosophers. Electromagnetic field theory makes it easy to believe that the energy of an electric field or a charge distribution is stored in the field itself...
Stated more generally, all fields in a good conductor such as copper are essentially zero at distances greater than a few skin depths from the surface. Any current density or electric field intensity established at the surface of a good conductor decays rapidly as we progress into the conductor. Electromagnetic energy is not transmitted in the interior of a conductor; it travels in the region surrounding the conductor, while the conductor merely guides the waves. We will consider guided propagation in more detail in Chapter 13.
Clearly you're not doing this so why don't you answer your own question?
I don't, I'm just saying energy flows through wires, which contradicts no experimental data whatsoever.
If there were experimental data supporting the energy part of the slogan "Wires transfer charge. Space transfers energy." we would have known about them and they would be in books.
I think that is a fantastic video and unless you do not agree that is what happens there it debunks Derek's claim that energy travels outside the wire in his experiment.
Absolutely nothing in this video debunks Derek's experiment. Charges are conducted by conductors, and the energy is transferred by the fields through the various dielectric materials (air, plastic, etc.)
So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
QuoteI don't, I'm just saying energy flows through wires, which contradicts no experimental data whatsoever.It contradicts all the experimental data since the times of the discovery of electromagnetism in the 19th century until this very day. But if you want to ignore that, be my guest.QuoteIf there were experimental data supporting the energy part of the slogan "Wires transfer charge. Space transfers energy." we would have known about them and they would be in books.They are. I even showed you where this is in the very first book on the matter. You probably haven't read many books on the subject.
Please pay more attention to the video.
There is no transfer of energy between the rotating disks and laden jars (large capacitors) until voltage is high enough to have electrons travel the gap
Why can't I find them in all modern books: Jackson, Griffiths, Haus Melcher and so on?
Why can't I find them in all modern books: Jackson, Griffiths, Haus Melcher and so on?
Maybe you're functionally illiterate, who knows?
One problem that Heaviside used to illustrate the energy current concept was that of a battery connected by a simple circuit to a resistor load in his 1886–1887 work ‘The transfer of energy and its application to wires. Energy current’ [33]—effectively an analysis of a ‘twin wire transmission line’. The standard approach is to assume that electrical energy flows inside metal wires (confinement), but Heaviside's energy current approach dictates otherwise. Poynting had first published on this arrangement [31], which was criticized by Heaviside due to Poynting's misconception of the nature of the external electric field surrounding the wires [32,34]. Poynting considered only a tangential electric field in the axis of the wire, combined with the circumferential magnetic field, resulting in an inwardly radial component of the energy flux density, W, only. Thus, given no energy flux in the direction of the electric current—how does energy get from the battery to the load? This is not answered by conventional circuit theory. Heaviside argued that this ‘Poynting component’ is simply the heat lost due to Joule heating in the conductor; however, a more prominent component exists outside the wire due to a radial electric field—the surface charges on the conductors that set up the field and maintain the electric current are responsible for the energy transfer external to the conductors. This complete field picture then presents a ‘map’ of the energy flow. Heaviside showed for the first time that a radial electric field and a circumferential magnetic field produce an ‘energy current’, a flow of electromagnetic energy in the space surrounding the electric conductors, directed from the battery along the axis of the conductor towards and entering the load.
This remarkable result is one that is rarely presented, but that Heaviside gives in great detail in his Electrical papers, vol. II, which have recently been the subject of a rigorous modern mathematical treatment [39], confirming Heaviside's results. It is readily shown that the energy current approach is compatible with the circuit theory approach by applying the integral formulation of the Poynting theorem to the problem, determining the power dissipated in the load resistor as VI, as dictated by conventional ‘confined’ circuit theory. This ‘energy current approach’ gives physical insight, but requires detailed knowledge of the electric and magnetic fields surrounding the analysed circuits. It complements his work on electromagnetic wave propagation by analysing the energy associated with the wave and also his work on electromagnetic diffusion in which he found that the current in the wire penetrates from the outside surface inwards.
It is well known that this approach is useful in antenna theory and microwave circuits. However, Heaviside extended the use of the theorem to DC electric circuits. In doing so, he reversed the contemporary view of electric current, proposing that the electric and magnetic fields due to the current are the primitives, rather than being a result of the motion of the electronic charge in the conductor. This is a controversial viewpoint and, in his Electrical papers, the phrase ‘we reverse this’ [36], referring to the ‘current in the wire being set up by the energy transmitted through the medium around it’, reverberates even to this day. This view is supported by his work on electromagnetic diffusion (previous section) and the nature of the electromagnetic field and current density penetration of an electrical conductor subjected to a step current. This is discussed in a modern context by Feynman [37], who showed that the electromagnetic momentum is ‘required’ in order to conserve angular mechanical momentum associated with the energy flux vector W, and a detailed historical discussion is presented by Nahin [12]. The ‘uniqueness’ of the vector W and the physical existence of mysterious and counterintuitive circulating ‘energy currents’ emerging from static fields (e.g. a point electric charge with a superimposed magnetic dipole) has been the subject of some debate among many scientists over a long period of time. Heaviside was the first to consider these issues in 1893 [38].
But it [eq.27.20] tells us a peculiar thing: that when we are charging a capacitor, the energy is not coming down the wires; it is coming in through the edges of the gap. That’s what this theory says!
You no doubt begin to get the impression that the Poynting theory at least partially violates your intuition as to where energy is located in an electromagnetic field. You might believe that you must revamp all your intuitions, and, therefore have a lot of things to study here. But it seems really not necessary. You don’t need to feel that you will be in great trouble if you forget once in a while that the energy in a wire is flowing into the wire from the outside, rather than along the wire. It seems to be only rarely of value, when using the idea of energy conservation, to notice in detail what path the energy is taking. The circulation of energy around a magnet and a charge seems, in most circumstances, to be quite unimportant. It is not a vital detail, but it is clear that our ordinary intuitions are quite wrong.
I think that is a fantastic video and unless you do not agree that is what happens there it debunks Derek's claim that energy travels outside the wire in his experiment.
Internet is also fool of java type animations and explanations of capacitors and most of them are incorrectly made as the author did not understand the physics and made wrong assumptions.
EEVBlog drew attention to this in his original response video to Veritasium but it's worth bringing up again, especially since Feynman gets a shout-out from the Royal Society:
https://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/II_27.htmlQuoteBut it [eq.27.20] tells us a peculiar thing: that when we are charging a capacitor, the energy is not coming down the wires; it is coming in through the edges of the gap. That’s what this theory says!
And of course Feynman has this to say (which Dave also drew attention to):QuoteYou no doubt begin to get the impression that the Poynting theory at least partially violates your intuition as to where energy is located in an electromagnetic field. You might believe that you must revamp all your intuitions, and, therefore have a lot of things to study here. But it seems really not necessary. You don’t need to feel that you will be in great trouble if you forget once in a while that the energy in a wire is flowing into the wire from the outside, rather than along the wire. It seems to be only rarely of value, when using the idea of energy conservation, to notice in detail what path the energy is taking. The circulation of energy around a magnet and a charge seems, in most circumstances, to be quite unimportant. It is not a vital detail, but it is clear that our ordinary intuitions are quite wrong.
Perhaps its possible to ignore all this business and retreat back to the hydraulic arguments about electrons being like water in pipes. Hayt concedes it might just be a philosophical problem - but yet he takes a firm position on which interpretation he prefers. So did Heaviside. So did Kraus. And even Feynman to an extent. He was lecturing to a room of freshmen/sophomore physics students in the 1960s. If he were talking to a room of engineers designing waveguides, the emphasis would be very different.
Our intuition is wrong - and these properties of fields are important if we think Maxwellian Theory means anything.
But it [eq.27.20] tells us a peculiar thing: that when we are charging a capacitor, the energy is not coming down the wires; it is coming in through the edges of the gap. That’s what this theory says!
The standard approach is to assume that electrical energy flows inside metal wires (confinement), but Heaviside's energy current approach dictates otherwise.
You no doubt begin to get the impression that the Poynting theory at least partially violates your intuition as to where energy is located in an electromagnetic field. You might believe that you must revamp all your intuitions, and, therefore have a lot of things to study here. But it seems really not necessary. You don’t need to feel that you will be in great trouble if you forget once in a while that the energy in a wire is flowing into the wire from the outside, rather than along the wire. It seems to be only rarely of value, when using the idea of energy conservation, to notice in detail what path the energy is taking. The circulation of energy around a magnet and a charge seems, in most circumstances, to be quite unimportant. It is not a vital detail, but it is clear that our ordinary intuitions are quite wrong.
But it [eq.27.20] tells us a peculiar thing: that when we are charging a capacitor, the energy is not coming down the wires; it is coming in through the edges of the gap. That’s what this theory says!
which explains clearly that it is a theory dictating where energy flows, not experiments.
Much like bsfeechannel, they don't point to experiments, because they cannot.
which explains clearly that it is a theory dictating where energy flows, not experiments.
Much like bsfeechannel, they don't point to experiments, because they cannot.LoL. Here's two experiments that show where energy flows.
Experiment 1:
Attached a transformer to 220V AC, and get (say) 9V AC @ 0.5A out the other side. The wires never touch (due to insulation). How does that energy pass through the transformer?
The answer for some here seem to be : It can't. Because the energy flows in the wires. Those Watts coming out the transformer are not from the energy coming in.
Experiment 2:
Store energy into the middle of three capacitors in series. Energy is transferred even though no charges can pass around the entire loop. How is that possible?
The answer for some here seem to be : It isn't possible, because the energy flows in the wires. The energy in that middle capacitor isn't stored electrical energy, it's something else.
Question still not answered:
Why do electrons in a wire drift proportionally to the current (the flow of charge), and not the energy being transferred?
For some the answer is : I'm not sure that they even drift
For others the answer for some here seem to be : Electrons carry not only charge they also carry the energy. They all have little backpacks they carry their electrical energy around it, and when a battery is connect or disconnect a battery they all quickly fill or empty their backpacks as required, sometimes over great distances, exactly at the time the connection is made or broken.
which explains clearly that it is a theory dictating where energy flows, not experiments.
Much like bsfeechannel, they don't point to experiments, because they cannot.LoL. Here's two experiments that show where energy flows.
Experiment 1:
Attached a transformer to 220V AC, and get (say) 9V AC @ 0.5A out the other side. The wires never touch (due to insulation). How does that energy pass through the transformer?
The answer for some here seem to be : It can't. Because the energy flows in the wires. Those Watts coming out the transformer are not from the energy coming in.
Experiment 2:
Store energy into the middle of three capacitors in series. Energy is transferred even though no charges can pass around the entire loop. How is that possible?
The answer for some here seem to be : It isn't possible, because the energy flows in the wires. The energy in that middle capacitor isn't stored electrical energy, it's something else.
Question still not answered:
Why do electrons in a wire drift proportionally to the current (the flow of charge), and not the energy being transferred?
For some the answer is : I'm not sure that they even drift
For others the answer for some here seem to be : Electrons carry not only charge they also carry the energy. They all have little backpacks they carry their electrical energy around it, and when a battery is connect or disconnect a battery they all quickly fill or empty their backpacks as required, sometimes over great distances, exactly at the time the connection is made or broken.
which explains clearly that it is a theory dictating where energy flows, not experiments.
Much like bsfeechannel, they don't point to experiments, because they cannot.LoL. Here's two experiments that show where energy flows.
Experiment 1:
Attached a transformer to 220V AC, and get (say) 9V AC @ 0.5A out the other side. The wires never touch (due to insulation). How does that energy pass through the transformer?
The answer for some here seem to be : It can't. Because the energy flows in the wires. Those Watts coming out the transformer are not from the energy coming in.Perhaps it's what they say.
What I say is that you get 4.5W consumed in the input, 4.5W produced in the output wires.
Potential is converted into momentum in the primary, this increases the momentum in the secondary which is then converted into potential (9V).
Experiment 2:
Store energy into the middle of three capacitors in series. Energy is transferred even though no charges can pass around the entire loop. How is that possible?
The answer for some here seem to be : It isn't possible, because the energy flows in the wires. The energy in that middle capacitor isn't stored electrical energy, it's something else.I can't answer for some. But when you charge the exterior capacitors, you create a current and potential difference in the middle one, which stores electrical energy at a rate of VI.
Question still not answered:
Why do electrons in a wire drift proportionally to the current (the flow of charge), and not the energy being transferred?
For some the answer is : I'm not sure that they even drift
For others the answer for some here seem to be : Electrons carry not only charge they also carry the energy. They all have little backpacks they carry their electrical energy around it, and when a battery is connect or disconnect a battery they all quickly fill or empty their backpacks as required, sometimes over great distances, exactly at the time the connection is made or broken.Mmh I'm not quite sure why you renamed potential energy into 'backpack', but if I were to explain electricity to children, I would consider it. Ispotentiala forbidden word now?
I'm curious how you see energy moving in vacuum. Is vacuum filling/emptying backpacks too? And giving to electrons/protons?