EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[EEVblog]

The first of those two cartoon videos has been removed, I expect that the other one will probably soon follow.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg904043/#msg904043

We know they watch this forum like hawks. Almost certain they asked for them to be removed.

[EEVblog]

there's no visitors posts at all on the facebook page anymore...

I haven't seen a more inane company Facebook page. The posts are just stupid and pointless 

And I see almost no comments, they have purged everything?

[Mr.B]

I haven't seen a more inane company Facebook page. The posts are just stupid and pointless

Yip...
Never have I seen a promotional page, Bookface or not, that has a post every Wednesday with a picture of a camel and the words "yay... its hump day"...
So lame...


Edit: Spelling correction.

[ChunkyPastaSauce]

Welp, March is over. Bobs last official update on indiegogo said they would ship in March... so they must be shipped right
..
Would be hilarious if an update pops up today being April 1st.

[timb]

As soon as you see a "photo" of a product with mirrored reflection you can be damn sure this is a CAD rendering.

Oh really?

Well, I'm sure Bob is familiar with small mirrors like that. But his involves a rolled up dollar bill and razor blade, not a battery.

Clearly that's what they used all the money on.

[ChunkyPastaSauce]

[Fungus]

Which of the 'promises'?

[AmmoJammo]

Which of the 'promises'?

so, his update is that we'll get an update? 

[ChunkyPastaSauce]

Which of the 'promises'?

so, his update is that we'll get an update? 

I thought it was odd too. Not on the official update page, just some comment in the comment section. Maybe there will be an update later...or not. Either way, weird way to go about it.

[firewalker]

April's fool day!

Alexander.

[rich]

I suspect the only reason Bob posted is because it looks like IGG begun taking a heightened interest. A few posts lower than Bob's, is a81120067 post quoting an IGG response dated April 1st saying the campaign is under review.

It all begs the question wtf have they been doing all this time.

[ChunkyPastaSauce]

I suspect the only reason Bob posted is because it looks like IGG begun taking a heightened interest. A few posts lower than Bob's, is a81120067 post quoting an IGG response dated April 1st saying the campaign is under review.

It all begs the question wtf have they been doing all this time.

Which of the 'promises'?

so, his update is that we'll get an update? 

I thought it was odd too. Not on the official update page, just some comment in the comment section. Maybe there will be an update later...or not. Either way, weird way to go about it.

Which of the 'promises'?

so, his update is that we'll get an update? 

The other thing that is odd about it, messages discussing the IGG TOS are coming in and shortly after there is a minimal response



From IGG TOS

"Campaign Owners are legally bound to perform on any promise and/or commitment to Contributors (including delivering any Perks). Indiegogo does not recognize any third party and/or agency affiliated with the Campaign as a Campaign Owner. If a Campaign Owner is unable to perform on any promise and/or commitment to Contributors, the Campaign Owner will work with the Contributors to reach a mutually satisfactory resolution, which may include the issuance of a refund of Contributions by the Campaign Owner. Indiegogo is under no obligation to become involved in disputes between Campaign Owners and Contributors, or Users and any third party. In addition, Indiegogo is under no obligation to become involved in disputes regarding the determination of the rightful Campaign Owner, and will not be obligated to make any changes to Campaign Owner accounts or transfer of ownership. In the event of any dispute, such as a Campaign Owner's alleged failure to comply with the Terms or alleged failure in fulfillment of a Perk, we may provide the Campaign Owner's contact information to the Contributor so that the two parties may resolve their dispute....
For Campaign Owners participating in programs with our retail partners, failure to ship orders to Indiegogo Contributors first may result in removal from such retail partnership programs. Campaign Owners will respond promptly and truthfully to all questions posed to them by Indiegogo or any Contributor. If any Campaign Owner is unable to fulfill any of its commitments to Contributors (including delivering any Perks), the Campaign Owner will work with the Contributors to reach a mutually satisfactory resolution, which may include refunding their Contributions. Campaign Owners will comply with all applicable laws and regulations in the use of Contributions and delivery of Perks.....
"
Who knows 

[Howardlong]

If you look under the thin veneer, he doesn't actually say **** all. Not that they've ordered the parts, that any production has even started, that they have a demonstrable pre production run. Not even any time commitment. This is a self-proclaimed veteran of the industry, what could possibly go wrong FFS?

However, I can imagine he'll have his sleeves rolled up digging himself out of that landslip: the one made of 800% cow turd that he's made himself.

800% bullshit, to coin a well-known phrase of this forum.

Regrettably for all of us there isn't, and never will be, any product :-(

[ccs46]

I suspect the only reason Bob posted is because it looks like IGG begun taking a heightened interest. A few posts lower than Bob's, is a81120067 post quoting an IGG response dated April 1st saying the campaign is under review.

It all begs the question wtf have they been doing all this time.

So if IGG makes them refund the money and Bob and Ali spent it all, can IGG take it out of their account on file?

[rich]

See:

Disputes between Campaign Owners and Contributors
Campaign Owners are legally bound to perform on any promise and/or commitment to Contributors (including delivering any Perks). Indiegogo does not recognize any third party and/or agency affiliated with the Campaign as a Campaign Owner. If a Campaign Owner is unable to perform on any promise and/or commitment to Contributors, the Campaign Owner will work with the Contributors to reach a mutually satisfactory resolution, which may include the issuance of a refund of Contributions by the Campaign Owner. Indiegogo is under no obligation to become involved in disputes between Campaign Owners and Contributors, or Users and any third party. In addition, Indiegogo is under no obligation to become involved in disputes regarding the determination of the rightful Campaign Owner, and will not be obligated to make any changes to Campaign Owner accounts or transfer of ownership. In the event of any dispute, such as a Campaign Owner's alleged failure to comply with the Terms or alleged failure in fulfillment of a Perk, we may provide the Campaign Owner's contact information to the Contributor so that the two parties may resolve their dispute.

tldr; IGG's not obliged to do anything. They might restrict the campaign owner's future activity is about as assertive it gets. It may be they just needed to remind Bob of his duties and he came to his senses 

[rich]

The first of those two cartoon videos has been removed, I expect that the other one will probably soon follow.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg904043/#msg904043

Maybe, but they are still generating new Batteriser content, so it does look like part of a legitimate design process. Similar content, but now with voice over.

[ez24]

a Campaign Owner's alleged failure to comply with the Terms or alleged failure in fulfillment of a Perk, we may provide the Campaign Owner's contact information to the Contributor so that the two parties may resolve their dispute.

ha ha contributors may get an email address     Then they can waste their time writing emails.

[gore]

This guy probably has a team dedicated to operating door handles. Translation of the latest update: "- You got conned. Give up and stop asking for stuff or you will be forced to read my tormenting, agonizing updates". People still expect to get theirs. This entire campaign was a huge red flag from the get go. I know it's not difficult to sucker in people with no technical background, but this is hardly a technical matter. Only a little bit of research and critical thinking would saved them some money. 800%! You know what I mean. Personally, claims that break the laws of physics usually tips me off.

P.S. Don't forget to collect your free gift. A designer 9V Batteriser sleeve - as promised, along with the rest of your bundle.

[EEVblog]

If you look under the thin veneer, he doesn't actually say **** all. Not that they've ordered the parts, that any production has even started, that they have a demonstrable pre production run. Not even any time commitment. This is a self-proclaimed veteran of the industry, what could possibly go wrong FFS?

And that's the thing, this guy was the CEO of Flextronics for goodness sake!
He should be extremely fluent in production lingo, capable of coming up with any conceivable excuse possible, yet with countess people after him with pitchforks, he can't say a single thing about production after all this time?
It is clear he does not want to, and that speaks volumes.

[EEVblog]

The other thing is for months and months he's been talking about shipping as if it's imminent, yet the biggest problem is that he still hasn't shown a single pre-production prototype.
Even after all the talk about the 500mA version that it was implied was imminent for production and therefore must have pre-production prototypes, as they have tested them to find they weren't capable, they still haven't even shown those.
Nothing, zip, zilch, nada.

[Towger]

It would be interesting to talk to someone who worked with him in Flextronics.  Sometimes big companies make big mistakes in their appoints.  Bank of Scotland apointed one if the IRA's money men to head up their Irish operation without properly checking his background.

[AF6LJ]

SO;
At this point; is this guy just plain stupid thinking his idea would work?
OR;
Was his intent to rip off his backers?

[DJohn]

At this point; is this guy just plain stupid thinking his idea would work?

I think that's how it started.  If you don't know much about batteries, or the difference between voltage and power, and you make the mistake of measuring the unloaded voltage of a 'dead' battery thinking it's the cut-off voltage of the device, and you don't stop to think "wouldn't someone have done this already?", then it sounds like a great idea.

The 800% claim is exactly what you get if you make all those mistakes.  You start with a nominal 1.5V (don't measure it, that's what's written on the battery).  Run your device until it stops.  Take the battery out and measure the voltage.  1.4V!  It's hardly used anything!  If we can boost it back up to 1.5V, we can keep going.  Between 0.6V and 1.4V is another 8 steps of 0.1V.

But it must have become clear to them long ago that it couldn't possibly work.  I don't know what they're doing now.

There is a chance that they actually do have a product (just not one that will do what they claim).  And it's not without value - if they can find an application for a tiny boost converter that runs down to 0.6V, their investors could still make some money.  It's just the crowdfunders who think they're getting miracle battery life extenders who lose out.  IF they have anything.  That if is getting bigger every day they don't ship.

[mikerj]

The 800% claim is exactly what you get if you make all those mistakes.  You start with a nominal 1.5V (don't measure it, that's what's written on the battery).  Run your device until it stops.  Take the battery out and measure the voltage.  1.4V!  It's hardly used anything!  If we can boost it back up to 1.5V, we can keep going.  Between 0.6V and 1.4V is another 8 steps of 0.1V.

   I agree, I could easily see this happening if all the initial testing was performed using only unloaded cell voltage.  It would mean you'd need to be completely ignorant of internal resistance i.e. not have even the most basic of electrical/electronics knowledge.

[Fungus]

The other thing is for months and months he's been talking about shipping as if it's imminent, yet the biggest problem is that he still hasn't shown a single pre-production prototype.

Yep. I haven't seen a single kickstarter where they didn't have a photo proudly holding the prototype, first chip sample, first production unit off the line, etc.

I don't believe they've produced a single thing other than those first prototypes. It's all lies. Prove me wrong, Bob.