EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[EEVblog]

It's now more than a week since the campaign finished, and not even so much a thankyou, let alone an update on how it's tracking. Very poor form.

[Wytnucls]

How many deceptions are allowed, before a fundraising campaign is labeled a scam?
If it quacks like a duck...

[LabSpokane]

It really appears to me that there was/is every intention to deliver a physical product. Batteriser even has the cases illustrated on their new web store. I can't tell if they are real or simply excellent renderings at this point. But the fact is that even if it is a rendering, it took considerable time, effort, and expense. If the cases are indeed production models, they are far ahead of where I thought they would be and I congratulate them.

Batteroo did a smart thing in making the AA/AAA and C/D cases common, which really saved them on tooling and press setup charges. One can even see an evolution in how the sheet metal was designed with what are ostensibly the latest production version.

A pure scam would not go through those exercises.  While the "fan" videos were so bizarre and amateurish, I couldn't believe they even listed them, I have to give them credit for the more professionally done videos. Product functionality, claims, testing, etc. aside, I honestly would be thrilled to have a market introduction executed as well as Batteroo's.

[drussell]

UL  - Not causing an insurable liability? - hmmm ok (with some reservation).

The (bogus) test performed by UL had absolutely nothing to do with safety and Batterisers are NOT UL approved or certified in any way.

[drussell]

Nice find!
Everyone who's making a Batteriser video should hire them to be in it 

Great find, indeed...

It would be quite a laugh to have the twins in a parody video or covert debunking video or somesuch, just like the "fan" page had a submitted video, some "fans" of other things could most certainly hire the twins or one of the others to star in their video. 

Hmmm...  Perhaps something about a couple of twins with performing arts degrees creating some type of incredible breakthrough product?  Or maybe that nature guy playing some sort of entreprenurial genius professor? 

[EEVblog]

It really appears to me that there was/is every intention to deliver a physical product.

Yes, all the talk about a scam etc is just crazy, there is a huge VC company behind this, and big otherwise reputable names on the boards of directors.
The VC and board members might have been seduced by the extravagant claims of the founders about this product, but nothing unusual there, that happens every day in the startup world.
You can bet your arse they are trying deliver something. How well it going to work though, well that's up the laws of physics and practical engineering.

[EEVblog]

Batteriser even has the cases illustrated on their new web store. I can't tell if they are real or simply excellent renderings at this point.

The Batterisers looks like renderings at first glance, the lighting, surfaces etc seem just too perfect. But of course practical prototypes do exist of course but probably don't take really nice photos.
The case looks realistic enough?
Either way, very slick production. Big money has indeed gone into this.

[LabSpokane]

It really appears to me that there was/is every intention to deliver a physical product.

Yes, all the talk about a scam etc is just crazy,

Agreed. We have a right to speak our piece about the technical claims, but we must always be fair.

[Wytnucls]

One shouldn't discount a scam just because a physical product exists, no matter how shiny it is.
If the product doesn't perform as advertised (we know it can't), I don't know what else to call it.
Constant deception and obfuscation have been the mainstay of the new product presentation.
A successful scam needs an elaborate deceptive publicity campaign. In that regard, Batteriser scores quite high.

[samgab]

One shouldn't discount a scam just because a physical product exists, no matter how shiny it is.
If the product doesn't perform as advertised (we know it can't), I don't know what else to call it.
Constant deception and obfuscation have been the mainstay of the new product presentation.
A successful scam needs an elaborate deceptive publicity campaign. In that regard, Batteriser scores quite high.

Exactly; what he said. It depends how you define "scam". I don't define scam as just if they weren't intending to deliver a product at all; I include in "scam" if they were actively promoting a product they fully intend to deliver which doesn't do what they claim it will, and where they keep claiming that it will do what it won't do knowingly after they have seen that it doesn't do what they claim. And then trying to do clever marketing to make it seem like the product does what they claim in order to deceive people. And claiming that people are fans of a product endorsing it when those people are paid actors. THAT's what I include in the broad term "scam".
"a confidence game or other fraudulent scheme, especially for making a quick profit; swindle."

[Halcyon]

Oh, about those professional looking fan commercials, they didn't cost that much, so I guess they are not rolling in big bucks.
Twins:
https://www.fiverr.com/theadtwins/create-a-promotional-video-featuring-twins
Magician:
https://www.fiverr.com/angelinoperafan/do-magic-with-your-logo-or-text
Australian Nature Guy:
https://www.fiverr.com/coreworkouts/enthusiastically-talk-about-your-product-like-an-australian-nature-enthusiast-watch-video
It's a pretty cool site that fiverr thing

Nice find!
Everyone who's making a Batteriser video should hire them to be in it 

I'm betting that "Magician" bloke is really our Batteriser Fan guy AKA Davey Jonez, AKA Daisy whatever...

[jancumps]

They're artists you can hire. The person who put the great comments on the G+ page was also a service that could be bought on fiverr.

Then this comment

[Rasz]

Oh, about those professional looking fan commercials, they didn't cost that much, so I guess they are not rolling in big bucks.

Twins:
https://www.fiverr.com/theadtwins/create-a-promotional-video-featuring-twins

Magician:
https://www.fiverr.com/angelinoperafan/do-magic-with-your-logo-or-text

Australian Nature Guy:
https://www.fiverr.com/coreworkouts/enthusiastically-talk-about-your-product-like-an-australian-nature-enthusiast-watch-video

It's a pretty cool site that fiverr thing

now that you mentioned fiverr:

http://fusion.net/story/191773/i-created-a-fake-business-and-fooled-thousands-of-people-into-thinking-it-was-real/

I bet those Vietnamese downvotes came from there as well.

[Delta]

How about the twins in golf gear, saying how they are such big fans of the Garmin G3 and its 18 hour battery life...? 😀

[firewalker]

Can anyone point out their lies for the fun videos in the campaign comments?

Alexander.

[FrankBuss]

I don't know if it was mentioned before here, but I searched "advertise twins" and I was lucky and the first Google result is this:
https://www.fiverr.com/theadtwins/create-a-promotional-video-featuring-twins
Riiiight, a fan video
EDIT: was mentioned before some pages before, still interesting that it is the first Google search result.

[onlooker]

According to http://www.consumerfraudreporting.org/productscams_.php (and other consumer law advice sites), product scams are described as

Product Scams: False Advertising, Misrepresentation, Exaggerated Claims and Products that are not "fit for purpose"

Now, we need to argue, did their ads do any in the description? Another quote is listed below,

False Advertising
"Any advertising or promotion that misrepresents the nature, characteristics, qualities or geographic origin of goods, services or commercial activities" (Lanham Act, 15 U.S.C.A. § 1125(a))
Proof Requirement
To establish that an advertisement is false, a plaintiff must prove five things: (1) a false statement of fact has been made about the advertiser's own or another person's goods, services, or commercial activity; (2) the statement either deceives or has the potential to deceive a substantial portion of its targeted audience; (3) the deception is also likely to affect the purchasing decisions of its audience; (4) the advertising involves goods or services in interstate commerce; and (5) the deception has either resulted in or is likely to result in injury to the plaintiff. The most heavily weighed factor is the advertisement's potential to injure a customer. The injury is usually attributed to money the consumer lost through a purchase that would not have been made had the advertisement not been misleading. False statements can be defined in two ways: those that are false on their face and those that are implicitly false.

[Fungus]

According to http://www.consumerfraudreporting.org/productscams_.php (and other consumer law advice sites), product scams are described as

Product Scams: False Advertising, Misrepresentation, Exaggerated Claims and Products that are not "fit for purpose"

There's a lot of "Misrepresentation" and "Exaggerated Claims". Nobody could doubt that for a minute.

The "fan videos" are now revealed as an outright lie. That's "False advertising".

Ok, it was always a safe bet that two hot twins would never spontaneously make a fan video for Batteriser but they might have been friends/family of the Batteriser Brothers. Now there's hard proof that they're not.

[Godzil]

Oh, about those professional looking fan commercials, they didn't cost that much, so I guess they are not rolling in big bucks.

Twins:
https://www.fiverr.com/theadtwins/create-a-promotional-video-featuring-twins

Magician:
https://www.fiverr.com/angelinoperafan/do-magic-with-your-logo-or-text

Australian Nature Guy:
https://www.fiverr.com/coreworkouts/enthusiastically-talk-about-your-product-like-an-australian-nature-enthusiast-watch-video

It's a pretty cool site that fiverr thing

Wow nice find, and the the comment from aly saying that the "australian nature guy" was a friend just put a lots of discredit in the whole baterro campain :/

I bet it did cost more than $15 because extra time and other things, but probably way less than $50 per video if it was even that much. Even at $200 per video it's not like a lot of mula.

What is strange is that for a fiverr you can get someone to design you a circuit

https://www.fiverr.com/keyuracharya/design-schematic-and-layout-for-pcb

there are others too.

Hum 5$ for an auto-routed PCB? That's quite expensive

[EEVblog]

What is strange is that for a fiverr you can get someone to design you a circuit
https://www.fiverr.com/keyuracharya/design-schematic-and-layout-for-pcb
there are others too.

Check out the feedback, looks totally legit 

[GNU_Ninja]

What is strange is that for a fiverr you can get someone to design you a circuit
https://www.fiverr.com/keyuracharya/design-schematic-and-layout-for-pcb
there are others too.

Check out the feedback, looks totally legit 

There's even single instance of negative feedback from Zack 

[Godzil]

What is strange is that for a fiverr you can get someone to design you a circuit
https://www.fiverr.com/keyuracharya/design-schematic-and-layout-for-pcb
there are others too.

Check out the feedback, looks totally legit 

Yeah, that was something that was in my mind, could we rely on feedback on a website that sell fake feeback?

[ez24]

What is strange is that for a fiverr you can get someone to design you a circuit
https://www.fiverr.com/keyuracharya/design-schematic-and-layout-for-pcb
there are others too.

Check out the feedback, looks totally legit 

Legit feedback for a legit $5 

(you have to use your own moral judgement on what "legit" means in this case)

https://www.fiverr.com/keyuracharya/write-a-5-star-review-for-your-windows-phone-app?funnel=3e11a998-9e5f-4a06-bd13-bd6180492d56

Can you trust his feedbacks when he is a professional feedbacker (5 stars only)?  It would only take you $5 to find out then you (whoever) could let the rest of us know. 

(Dave I heard you didn't get any stinky tofu  )

[edy]

I read the past few pages (ever since the revelation of using Fiverr for the fan videos and the fake reviews) and all I can say is how horribly disgusted I am by the way the Internet and e-commerce has evolved, and how incredulous things have become with the mushrooming of these types of pay-for social promotion/review and astroturfing businesses. The major sites (like Yelp, Facebook, YouTube, etc) all have a stake in cleaning up this crap using various algorithms if they are to sustain any sort of user-base who believes in honest reporting. I can tell you that once more people know about this, they will stop visiting these sites altogether and not believing a thing they read on them. You can't believe any reviews on many commercial and social sites anymore.

It is one thing to advertise on Facebook, YouTube, Google.... It is clearly marked as an advertisement. There is nothing devious about it. It is a completely different thing to pay for people to rate your product, write reviews, follow and manipulate dishonestly the reputation and popularity of you business/product and try to PASS IT OFF as it being from REAL USERS. Advertise all you want, but clearly mark it as an advertisement. Testimonials are not allowed by many PROFESSIONAL regulatory bodies because even though they can be placed in advertisements, there is too much opportunity for them to be abused and faked. Clearly, everyone will include a raving testimonial, which may not be reflective of the average general customer experience with that business.

So meanwhile you have to do your own research from multiple sources, read reviews from people you trust or have a history of saying it like it is, and following the money-trail on everything you see. For me, the Kickstarter and IndieGogo sites have already lost all credibility for not having protected backers from obvious scams where people have created "fantasy" renderings for products that there is no way they could ever deliver, and have no prototypes to speak of... Batteriser is a "saint" in comparison to those other campaigns that made WAY MORE money and ran off with it all and never delivered even a "goodbye suckas" to their backers. 

If we have learned anything from Batteriser and Batterroo Ltd, it is that they are probably NOT the only ones who have discovered these sites. If you start digging deeper, I bet you will find a PLAGUE of social-media and review manipulating services completely biasing the web. This has to be addressed by the industry, just like more and more people are installing ad-blockers on their pages, because people will eventually catch wind of this practice and lose all remaining trust in all review and ratings systems.

[SL4P]

I like the proposition of hiring a number of fivers to create videos using a script that calls out the practice of fake voting or promotion for products they 'have no commercial interest' in.
That immediately exposes all the campaigns as disingenuous, while letting the promoters continue their business - having been paid professional promoters
There is no fraud in fivers making the video, but there is if the advertiser use it to support unfounded commercial or scientific claims!