EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[Psycho]

I guess I will never be able to understand how people can be that ignorant, like this syyenergy7

[Fungus]

A whole video about how specs are misleading and often exaggerate... well between random ramblings. Pretty sure this is what we've been saying. *facepalm*

I'm not sure what to say. It might actually work in a crappy camera like that. If Alkalines only last ten minutes then the cutoff voltage must be 1.4V or something.

Is it chance that fixated him on that camera? Is this the cleverest Batteroo shill yet?   

[5ky]

It'll be great when batteroo's favorite little special person who can't even pronounce their product name correctly, syyenergy7, ends up proving that batteriser is a scam.  I'm VERY glad that he chose a high current device to test on.  Let the games begin! 

[Fungus]

It'll be great when batteroo's favorite little special person who can't even pronounce their product name correctly, syyenergy7, ends up proving that batteriser is a scam.

If Alkalines only last 10 minutes in that camera (as stated in the manual!) then Batteriser could easily end up making them last 20-30 minutes.

[TheAmmoniacal]

Someone buy that camera and test it!

[ziq8tsi]

If he tests the runtime while recording video, he will quite possibly find that sudden loss of power also corrupts the memory card.

Most older cameras use FAT filesystems, which are not journalled and require simultaneous writes to the data blocks, both FATs, and directory entry to maintain consistency.  And the controller inside the card remaps physical blocks for wear levelling and defect management; not necessarily an atomic process either.

[Quarlo Klobrigney]

It's just the white van men selling dodgy kit...only without the white van.

[5ky]

It'll be great when batteroo's favorite little special person who can't even pronounce their product name correctly, syyenergy7, ends up proving that batteriser is a scam.

If Alkalines only last 10 minutes in that camera (as stated in the manual!) then Batteriser could easily end up making them last 20-30 minutes.

You're assuming it only lasts 10 minutes due to a really high cutoff voltage.  I'm thinking it's high current draw

[Fungus]

You're assuming it only lasts 10 minutes due to a really high cutoff voltage.  I'm thinking it's high current draw

It would need to draw about 12 Amps to use up 2000 mAh in ten minutes...

(2000+ being the number of mAh in an alkaline AA battery, approx.)

[SeanB]

I have a Sony camera which will do around 5 minutes with non rechargeable cells, then says low battery and cuts off. Only ones that will last are the Energiser Lithium cells, which will do hours. 1Ah AA NimH cells the same long run time. Just the spiky high current draw as the camera charges up the flash circuitry if the light level drops down triggers the UVLO.

I bought the camera on Gumtree, not because I wanted the camera, but it was advertised with 3 MS cards, and they were a mix of high capacity and low capacity ones, and I wanted one bigger than the 8M one in the Mavica. The camera and cards were cheaper than the one 128M card alone, plus it came with the Energiser Lithium cells as well, which did a month of shooting every so often. Now it is in a drawer as I have other cameras I like with better resolution and better focusing.

[5ky]

You're assuming it only lasts 10 minutes due to a really high cutoff voltage.  I'm thinking it's high current draw

It would need to draw about 12 Amps to use up 2000 mAh in ten minutes...

(2000+ being the number of mAh in an alkaline AA battery, approx.)

You're forgetting Peukert's Law.  You get MUCH less capacity out of a battery at higher current draw.  A Duracell AA battery is rated at 27 hours of life at 100 mA constant current.  A Duracell AA battery is also rated at about 1 hour at 1 A constant current.  Do the math and you'll find it's not a proportional relationship. 

Also, that example was assuming you go down to 0.8v.  I'd assume the camera probably cuts out at closer to 1.1v, so in that case, it would be 22 hours for 100mA versus about 30 minutes at 1A.

EDIT: here's their graph, for reference

[Fungus]

You're assuming it only lasts 10 minutes due to a really high cutoff voltage.  I'm thinking it's high current draw

It would need to draw about 12 Amps to use up 2000 mAh in ten minutes...

(2000+ being the number of mAh in an alkaline AA battery, approx.)

You're forgetting Peukert's Law. 

My bad 

Still, you'd need to draw 2-3 Amps to kill them in 10 minutes.

Think though: Would alkalines die in ten minutes when other battery types manage 2 hours if it was just current draw? Nope.

[bktemp]

I doubt the Batteriser can supply enough current to keep the camera from shutting down.

[f4eru]

Yes, it cuts off, not because the energy is used up, but because the ESR is too high for the high current draw, so the cell voltage collapses.
The boost converter can help a little bit with that by reducin the cutoff from 1.1V to 0.5V, but that won't help more than ca. 10%

[5ky]

You're assuming it only lasts 10 minutes due to a really high cutoff voltage.  I'm thinking it's high current draw

It would need to draw about 12 Amps to use up 2000 mAh in ten minutes...

(2000+ being the number of mAh in an alkaline AA battery, approx.)

You're forgetting Peukert's Law. 

My bad 

Still, you'd need to draw 2-3 Amps to kill them in 10 minutes.

Think though: Would alkalines die in ten minutes when other battery types manage 2 hours if it was just current draw? Nope.

Yes. That's due to the ESR. Look up the ESR for lithium batteries. It's much lower than alkalines. Hence why voltage delta between full and empty is so small. That also mean they're able to put out nearly the same amount of current when empty as they can when they're full. Alkaline current capability curves downwards with the voltage. Full AA: 6-10 amps, empty AA: 0.5-1 amp. Do you know what current output difference is like with lithium batteries?

Voltage isn't everything. If your battery can't supply enough current, your device can stop functioning, despite the voltage level. It's why eight AA batteries in series can't start your car engine despite having the same voltage as a lead acid 12V it normally used.

[f4eru]

Still, you'd need to draw 2-3 Amps to kill them in 10 minutes

Yep, and a camera uses that much. 3A @ 2x1.1V is 6.6W. That's not much for all the processing power, motors, flash, memory  etc...  in this camera.
Alkaline cells cannot supply that current, this is why the manufacturer recommends NiMh, which have a much lower ESR, and last longer, despite having actually less capacity, less energy, and less voltage !!!

[jippie]

Yes, it cuts off, not because the energy is used up, but because the ESR is too high for the high current draw, so the cell voltage collapses.
The boost converter can help a little bit with that by reducin the cutoff from 1.1V to 0.5V, but that won't help more than ca. 10%

I think the converter can actually latch into a state where it draws enough current to keep itself running and pull the battery voltage down to near 0V (ish), but is unable to supply sufficient current (and voltage) to actually power the load.

Might be an interesting test for 5ky to check if this behaviour can be reproduced (I've observed it before with a 5V converter) as it will definitely draw the cells way beyond their safe discharge rating (read leakage).

[f4eru]

I think the converter can actually latch into a state where it draws enough current to keep itself running and pull the battery voltage down to near 0V (ish), but is unable to supply sufficient current (and voltage) to actually power the load.

Yes, there is a snow ball effect in that, also called positive feedback. Put a constant load power draw on a cell, at some point, it could probably even oscillate due to the cut off behavior of the load !!

[photon]

Hi,

From a commercial point of view I don't believe that Bob's goal is to sell a ton of Batterisers with a fairly slim margins.

I believe that Bob's real product is the company. He is a serial entrepreneur, he will have an exit strategy, somebody else will be left with the pieces.

They don't care if the product really works.

Jay_Diddy_B

I have worked for 4 startups , one of which was successful, the other 3 lost their VC investors millions, the worst losing about $45 million. I took these jobs because of the experience it provided. There aren't enough engineers at a startup to actually do the work in the given schedule, so each one has a lot to do. Of these 4 startups, each was making a product that they wanted to sell to a customer like Cisco, Apple or other technically astute player. Batteriser is unique, AFAIK, in that they are the first Silicon Valley VC funded company who have a business plan to scam the uneducated masses.

[drussell]

I'm not sure what to say. It might actually work in a crappy camera like that. If Alkalines only last ten minutes then the cutoff voltage must be 1.4V or something.
...
If Alkalines only last 10 minutes in that camera (as stated in the manual!) then Batteriser could easily end up making them last 20-30 minutes.

It can't be 1.4v cutoff otherwise it wouldn't get any kind of runtime on a NiMH cell either.  It's the current demand of the camera trying to pull a couple amps out of a pair of AA cells.  This will cause the voltage across a pair of AAs to drop very rapidly to the point that they can't supply enough total power regardless of what kind of boost converter you slap on them.

Batterizer won't make them last significantly longer because as the input voltage drops you have to draw even more current in order to supply the total power at the boosted voltage to the output.

Still, you'd need to draw 2-3 Amps to kill them in 10 minutes.

Think though: Would alkalines die in ten minutes when other battery types manage 2 hours if it was just current draw? Nope

You're correct in that this camera will be drawing a couple of amps but wrong about the other batteries.  Other battery chemistries can do significantly more current for longer without the terminal voltage dropping significantly.  This is why things like NiCds are used in power tools, for example, and get good battery life until the discharge profile finally starts to drop off like a rock at the end.  Just compare the discharge curves of an alkaline and a NiCd or NiMH cells at an amp or two.  You'll see why any device with a heavy load will do much better on rechargeables than alkalines.

You're assuming it only lasts 10 minutes due to a really high cutoff voltage.  I'm thinking it's high current draw

You're correct.

If he tests the runtime while recording video, he will quite possibly find that sudden loss of power also corrupts the memory card.

Yes.  This is another unintended consequence.  Just like the CO2 detector example where you won't get your low battery warning (EGADS!) because it removes the product's ability to warn the user, a camera typically does the same type of thing.  When it goes into shutdown mode due to low battery it still has enough juice to do a clean shutdown, close files properly, etc.  This will not occur with a batterizer if it just cuts the power from 1.5v to 0v with no warning. 

[5ky]

So, did anybody here pre order a set for some testing when it comes out?

Yup, with enough to go around if anyone wants a pair mailed to them. 

[5ky]

So, did anybody here pre order a set for some testing when it comes out?

Yup, with enough to go around if anyone wants a pair mailed to them.

Please PM me as soon as you got them. I'd love to test and share. I'll pass them on when done.

I have a terrible memory so it would be safer for you to Pm me when you've heard they've shipped

[amyk]

I have a feeling that high-current devices are either going to fry the Batteriser or won't work as well as without, as it'll have to draw even more current (and thus a lower voltage) from a battery with increasing internal resistance, and the efficiency of the boost converter is going to drop very quickly. Is it even possible to make a boost converter that can take e.g. 0.8V at 4A to 1.5V at 2A, i.e. 94% efficiency, and put it in a package <1mm thick?

[samgab]

... Is it even possible to make a boost converter that can take e.g. 0.8V at 4A to 1.5V at 2A, i.e. 94% efficiency, and put it in a package <1mm thick?

Ahh well, you see, that is the magic of this new custom designed IC from the genius Rooparvah brothers...  They've managed to design a custom IC that none of the big IC manufacturers, TI/Maxim/Fairchild/etc were able to achieve. Using Patents, genius, and MAGIC!

[dexters_lab]

So, did anybody here pre order a set for some testing when it comes out?

yes, have 8 AA size on order

TBH i think quite a few people have ordered some for testing/teardown/debunking

i will have some spare, so if anyone in UK/Europe wants one for testing let me know