Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal

[mikeselectricstuff]

My bet is that it's not actually zoom but variable focus, the "zoom" being how close you are.

[efahrenholz]

Mike, one thing is certain: they knew this would be coming. The magnesium body actually has a ring glued to it, the decorative sunshroud with the stairsteps. Some people complained that it came off the unit and seek asked for them to send the unit back, rather than apologize and recommend some cyanoacrilate (spelling) or just say super glue the dang thing back on dummies. That ring is likely a piece of the actual variable whatever they are about to release. $100 for an apparently unpainted magnesium housing (Thanks for the corrosion  prevention btw), a new front piece that has a thread for the lens to screw on...that's a bit steep. That's a huge mark-up. Are they selling the fixed focus version at a leader loss? Why not charge for the app while they are at it...oh yea, nobody would pay for an app that has removed non working features. Who needs emissivity anyways. Auto everything!

Is there something wrong with teaching people thermography? They made a post long ago, stating that adding complicated features would increase the difficulty for someone to pick up the device and go. There's nothing wrong with a basic how-to, even a nice step by step tutorial. They added a simple swipe command tutorial to use the poorly aligned visual camera (which is always on, even if disabled-- caught a bug in widescreen mode, see tiny line on edge of screen that changes). But it seems like auto everything was the way to go. This is essentially a clip on poloriod thermal camera. I whole heartily disagree with their direction, and it's why I probably won't be buying another module from them unless someone manages to throw together a proper third party app or windows executable. And I'd be willing to throw good money at something like that.

[encryptededdy]

I saw a photo of a thermal imager with a zoom. The diameter of the lens is not changed. Means that at maximum zoom - sensitivity decreases 3 times.

The diameter of the lens has increased - however definitely not 3x.




I'm not a expert on this, but I think it would still be possible for the lens to maintain a constant aperture throughout the zoom range, even without increasing the lens's diameter - depending on if the original lens as was already the largest aperture they could fit in the size (of the orig lens)

[jaybeez]

I saw a photo of a thermal imager with a zoom. The diameter of the lens is not changed. Means that at maximum zoom - sensitivity decreases 3 times.

The diameter of the lens has increased - however definitely not 3x.




I'm not a expert on this, but I think it would still be possible for the lens to maintain a constant aperture throughout the zoom range, even without increasing the lens's diameter - depending on if the original lens as was already the largest aperture they could fit in the size (of the orig lens)

If you go back and look at some of seek's product images, pre release, the bezel and lens look more like the the XR version, than the original fixed model. I commented on that in this thread,  and I think some others picked up on it too. At the time I just concluded the images were of earlier prototypes, but now I think differently.

My theory is that maybe the focus version was the originally planned device, but a decision was made to retool and release the fixed version at a price point lower than the flir one. sell a bunch. create buzz.
Now that flir has announced their One 2.0, seek is releasing their original design as "new upgraded" model. this early hardware change might explain the early retool and supply problems, and the issues with the app not being ready for prime time (at least with the changed hardware).

[rjardina]

micro-lens holder for less than $1.50US (elastic cord)

If anyone else is interested in doing this too. 12,500RPMs while dipping it in water every 10 seconds. Or better yet drill the lens under water if possible, to prevent chipping. I learned a little from the first hole I chipped, as seen.

---edit---

!Warning danger! Another contributor pointed out that the dust from a Zinc Selinadel lens is toxic. Safety first take proper precautions and wear the right PPE.

[TinWhiskers]

I saw a photo of a thermal imager with a zoom. The diameter of the lens is not changed. Means that at maximum zoom - sensitivity decreases 3 times.

The diameter of the lens has increased - however definitely not 3x.







I'm not a expert on this, but I think it would still be possible for the lens to maintain a constant aperture throughout the zoom range, even without increasing the lens's diameter - depending on if the original lens as was already the largest aperture they could fit in the size (of the orig lens)

It is further interesting to note that the icon for the Seek app has always been an image of the larger lens device

[encryptededdy]

(snip)
It is further interesting to note that the icon for the Seek app has always been an image of the larger lens device

Not really - I think that has the larger lens just for aesthetic purposes of the icon.

The Seek XR has a lens that protrudes out of the case further than on the original seek, however the lens in the icon does not protrude out very far and so is probably the original seek.

[jeffreythe00]

micro-lens holder for less than $1.50US (elastic cord)

If anyone else is interested in doing this too. 12,500RPMs while dipping it in water every 10 seconds. Or better yet drill the lens under water if possible, to prevent chipping. I learned a little from the first hole I chipped, as seen.

Hello jardina,

While I will assume you have taken the proper precautions not to create any dust when drilling holes in your lens. Please do note that several documents suggest Zinc Selinade is toxic when inhaled. I signed up just to point this out.

I've been following this thread as well since I too have a seek camera. I love all of the work everyone is doing and reading about it, even though I don't understand most of it.

Thanks to all of the dedicated people working to make this a better product! I sincerely hope seek takes the advice given here so that we all can benefit (seek included)

[Uho]

It will be interesting to know how the zoom feature has been created. It normally required three lenses, with the middle one moving. It is possible to create a zoom function using two lenses with one (front) moving in and out of the seconds (rear) optical axis to create a variable zoom effect. Zoom with a single lens would be 'interesting'.

The lens also needs to remain focus free (fixed focus)...... quite a challenge !

Hopefully we will find out in due course.

I hope Seek are putting effort into improving the electronic and software design, as well as the optical path.

Aurora

Aurora wrote is true. Need more lenses. Each transition air - glass is 6% loss. You need to add at least one lens. This two transitions. This minus 12%. If two lenses is 24% loss. Zoom in three times. Means the area of the lens Sx3 + 0.24Sx3. This is not an exact formula. But you can estimate the size of the lens. I do not see an increase in the lens. Although it is impossible to believe Seek. They are used in advertising professional imager. Not Seek. They can again draw pretty pictures.

[Nik]

Seek Thermal XR is certainly a manual focus lens imager. It does not have true zoom.
It seems not possible to make  real optic zoom by using 3x such chalcogenide lens while we know even single lens makes such terrible distortions.

At least with single lens it is possible to change its location to upside down and use it as macro thermal cam to find things on pcb

[Seeker]

As mentioned in Mike's video on the SeeK, it looks possible to attach the ZnSe lens for close-up work with a plastic cap of some kind...no lens drilling.
I don't need such a lens but if I did I'd make an interference fit cap, comprising a side lip (for grip on the bezel) and a thin shoulder to capture the edge of the extra lens. Polyethelene would give the pressure required for a good grip.
Of course the exact size would have to be arrived at by experiment--or use a slightly undersize hard plastic (ABS, styrene) with a cut in it for spring. In a lot of cases a domestic bottle cap (of some kind) could be utilised, with most of the top cut away.

Whichever way, there's plenty of room for (holding) plastic at the front of the bezel...the SeeK lens's field of view is quite a narrow cone.

EDIT--have just read Nik's post properly--so the XR is not a zoom after all, it just enables closer focusing for PCB work etc, and sharper long distance imaging. So for those of us that need the PCB imaging...far cheaper to add a ZnSe lens to the fixed SeeK?

[Fraser]

With regard to lens diameter, I recall during Mikes tear down that there appears to be a rubber cup over the lens tube that reduces the amount of lens visible to the user and so effectively reduces the effective diameter. I just checked my SEEK and this does indeed appear to be the case.

Aurora

[WS-PI]

According the spec SeeK gives for the Seek Thermal it has a 36° field of view. But for the XR it is 20° field of view.
Therefor the XR has a tele lens compared to the standard SeeK. If my rough estimations are right it must have 2 times the focal distance. That gives the better resolution for far objects but as a consequence it can not be used without adjustements for near objects. That's why they had to made it adjustable.

[Seeker]

@WSPI--if those FOV's are correct then it appears that rather than the XR being a "zoom" or a "manual focuser" it is now neither--but a fixed telephoto, with focusing. [Obviously, a zoom lens has two figures for FOV].
Soooo...XR quite a lot better for distance imaging, it would seem.

[WS-PI]

With regard to lens diameter, I recall during Mikes tear down that there appears to be a rubber cup over the lens tube that reduces the amount of lens visible to the user and so effectively reduces the effective diameter. I just checked my SEEK and this does indeed appear to be the case.

Aurora

The SeeK Thermal is a fixed focus camera therefore you have only a certain depth of field. I assume, if they use the whole diameter of the lens, the depth of field would be to small. By reducing the aperture with the rubber cup they increased the depth of field. Another option was to add a focus adjustment as they do now for the XR model. But that was probably to expensive.

[WS-PI]

@WSPI--if those FOV's are correct then it appears that rather than the XR being a "zoom" or a "manual focuser" it is now neither--but a fixed telephoto, with focusing. [Obviously, a zoom lens has two figures for FOV].
Soooo...XR quite a lot better for distance imaging, it would seem.

@Seeker
I have These numbers for the FOV from the Seek Thermal Webpage. On the shop page you can see the spec for both Versions.

Maybe the current Version is a wide field then the XR could be a normal range?

[Seeker]

Maybe the current Version is a wide field then the XR could be a normal range?

Yes, the first SeeK could be a wide angle, making the XR near "standard" for the sensor. But it does transpire that--contrary to some of the web mentions--it's not a zoom, but a fixed, longer focal length. There seems to be confusion abroad, as to what constitutes a "zoom".

One would presume that some app upgrade would be forthcoming to force the native camera to zoom in to match the FOV of the XR, when doing the "overlay" thing?....Or maybe it controls that already (haven't checked).

[efahrenholz]

So essentially, they increased the focal length of the lens by reshaping it, receded the rubber mask to allow in more radiation (which narrows the depth of field), and modified the lens housing to allow changing the focus by twisting. And they actually slapped on some paint instead of the bare metal they were showing off. Thank you Seek, good move.

I was a little harsh before. Perhaps I shot my mouth off too early. This is a longer fixed focal length, focus adjustable version of the first seek. That being the case, I would like to see photos of the unit in operation. If they managed to reduce the speed of the lens by receding the rubber iris, it might actually produce cleaner images, but not by a huge margin. But it could make a difference...if they just would work on the dang software.

[rjardina]

As mentioned in Mike's video on the SeeK, it looks possible to attach the ZnSe lens for close-up work with a plastic cap of some kind...no lens drilling.
I don't need such a lens but if I did I'd make an interference fit cap, comprising a side lip (for grip on the bezel) and a thin shoulder to capture the edge of the extra lens. Polyethelene would give the pressure required for a good grip.
Of course the exact size would have to be arrived at by experiment--or use a slightly undersize hard plastic (ABS, styrene) with a cut in it for spring. In a lot of cases a domestic bottle cap (of some kind) could be utilised, with most of the top cut away.

That is a very good point and IS the better solution than drilling holes, no doubt. Making one is time consuming and of course there are freely available specs for 3D printing such a cap. A resource I don't have and costly for people to have that service provided for what it is. I was worried about cracking the lens and just wanted to show others its doable. This is the best solution for me, and the easiest & fastest to modify for future cameras. If anyone here is concern about doing things properly/correctly when it comes to the seek camera, why is anyone using it to begin with? I am sorry, I'm not trying to start any conflicts.

[encryptededdy]

The original seeks appear to now be $249 on thermal.com

[efahrenholz]

The original seeks appear to now be $249 on thermal.com

This is either an error or a lame move, especially considering they didn't announced anywhere that they would be bumping up the price a whole $50.

[Fraser]

They are recovering the developmengt costs for software fixing the gradient issue 

But seriously, IIRC the original pre release price of the SEEK was $250 and it was dropped to $200 at release. An early adopters discount to gain market share and publicity maybe ?

Aurora

[eneuro]

They are recovering the developmengt costs for software fixing the gradient issue 

There might be something else-they made significant changes to new Seek hardware and do not want no more people to mess with old version and slowly move to new version.
While new version is only  a few dolars more, people will forget about his first hardware and software version and nobody will complain about gradient issues no more, hidden... much better in new software  that in first versions where people could make more adjustments and set emissivity.
Now they can't, so can see something... can be ghost busters, play with lenses screw and... pay 50% for something which should be done a few months ago 

[Seeker]

Well unless Amazon play along and bump their price to match they won't sell many at that price...Amazon (today) still doing SeeK1 at $200 post free.

[JcDenton]

Perhaps it's from the backlash on their facebook site of people complaining that they just bought one, and then they come out with a better one, and increasing the price would suppress that buyers remorse, plus they can afford to increase the price, since there is no other imagers in that price range.