Author Topic: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal  (Read 1022077 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Nik

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 18
Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1675 on: February 10, 2015, 01:14:26 am »
By now Flir One and Seek Thermal have the same price on Amazon:$249.99
Which one is better?
 

Offline -jeffB

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 115
Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1676 on: February 10, 2015, 04:05:50 pm »
That's hard to answer. What do you intend to do with it?

The current SeeK has significantly higher native resolution (206x156) than the current FLIR ONE (80x60), and has a wider range of displayable temperatures. The new SeeK XR adds adjustable focus, which is quite useful in some applications, and costs a bit more.

The current FLIR ONE (iPhone-only) has vastly better software support -- more robust and reliable, more accurate measurements, fewer crashes, better apparent image quality (lower noise, MSX optical enhancement).

The upcoming FLIR ONE (iOS or Android) will be closer to the SeeK's resolution (160x120). Assuming that its software is still high-quality, it's likely to significantly outperform the SeeK in nearly every aspect. But it will be a while before it's available; if you need an imager now, it's not relevant.
 

Offline eneuro

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1528
  • Country: 00
Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1677 on: February 10, 2015, 05:53:49 pm »
if you need an imager now, it's not relevant.
It depends what do you want to do with your thermal imager-to detect house thermal energy gaps one can use even MELEXIS ;)


I like Melexis array footprint-compat and  easy to hide into tube etc.
http://www.melexis.com/Infrared-Thermometer-Sensors/Infrared-Thermometer-Sensors/MLX90620-776.aspx

FLIR? No, thanks!
12oV4dWZCAia7vXBzQzBF9wAt1U3JWZkpk
“Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine”  - Nikola Tesla
-||-|-
 

Offline mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13773
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1678 on: February 10, 2015, 07:58:12 pm »
That's hard to answer. What do you intend to do with it?

The current SeeK has significantly higher native resolution (206x156) than the current FLIR ONE (80x60), and has a wider range of displayable temperatures. The new SeeK XR adds adjustable focus, which is quite useful in some applications, and costs a bit more.

The current FLIR ONE (iPhone-only) has vastly better software support -- more robust and reliable, more accurate measurements, fewer crashes, better apparent image quality (lower noise, MSX optical enhancement).

The upcoming FLIR ONE (iOS or Android) will be closer to the SeeK's resolution (160x120). Assuming that its software is still high-quality, it's likely to significantly outperform the SeeK in nearly every aspect. But it will be a while before it's available; if you need an imager now, it's not relevant.
The big question is how much will the new f1 cost. It looks like it will replace the current one, so seems like pricing could be similar
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline miguelvp

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5550
  • Country: us
Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1679 on: February 11, 2015, 12:53:00 am »
The big question is how much will the new f1 cost. It looks like it will replace the current one, so seems like pricing could be similar

If that is the case, the bigger question is what will be the fate of the E4, E5 & E6, other than the hackability for those in the know.
 

Offline TinWhiskers

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 4
Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1680 on: February 11, 2015, 01:47:12 am »
The big question is how much will the new f1 cost. It looks like it will replace the current one, so seems like pricing could be similar

If that is the case, the bigger question is what will be the fate of the E4, E5 & E6, other than the hackability for those in the know.


Yet it seems to me that an even bigger question for the new F1 would be whether or not the temperature range capability is extended, especially at the high-end.  Those considering an E4,E5 or
E6 are more often than not seeking higher temperature reading capability than what the current F1
offers. Adding another 100° to the F1 top end, in addition to the already revealed pixel enhancement would prove to be a real winner.
 

Offline efahrenholz

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 188
Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1681 on: February 12, 2015, 09:51:21 pm »
The big question is how much will the new f1 cost. It looks like it will replace the current one, so seems like pricing could be similar

If that is the case, the bigger question is what will be the fate of the E4, E5 & E6, other than the hackability for those in the know.


Yet it seems to me that an even bigger question for the new F1 would be whether or not the temperature range capability is extended, especially at the high-end.  Those considering an E4,E5 or
E6 are more often than not seeking higher temperature reading capability than what the current F1
offers. Adding another 100° to the F1 top end, in addition to the already revealed pixel enhancement would prove to be a real winner.

The range was extended but not significantly. I can't recall the range anymore, but it is still slightly out of the range of measuring even the temperature of a hotend of a 3D printer. That much I remember because I even said to myself, 'My God, it can't even measure the melting point of PLA,' which is considered fairly low for plastics.

This is, unfortunately, the devil in the details. If you do any serious electronics work or need to measure significantly hot objects (power transistors), the old and new FLIR One is out of the question. The Seek seems to operate with flying colors at higher temperatures, to a degree (pun). The noise level goes very low, gradient disappears, image contrast is improved. But when you begin to exceed 300C, it develops strange block zones of noise, which ruins the image. Having a restrictive temperature span might be to blame for that. If you go the other way of 30C and lower, noise increases, contrast is all but gone. The image looks like noisy analog and digital tv signal mutation, coming in and out of reception. And that blame rests on the poor thermal response of a 12um wide thermistor and overzealous, economically contrived, readout circuit.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 09:53:52 pm by efahrenholz »
 

Offline rffreak

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 1
Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1682 on: February 13, 2015, 06:25:29 pm »
@-jeffB,

I regret I am not a chemist, just an end user.

The background to my knowledge about these lenses is that I have used ZnSe lenses for some years as a close-up auxilliary lens for my industrial thermal cameras. I was familiar with them and their fragility in terms of scratching. Unlike Germanium lenses ZnSe offered an affordable solution to close up work on PCB's

Move forward a few years......the FLIR E4 was released. Many of us on this forum discussed the various parts of the new Ex series, including the lens. There was some discussion about the size of the lens and whether it was Germanium. Without saying too much, I have a friend inside the industry and I discussed the E4 with him. He knows the design well  ;) Being a great chap he directed me towards the Lightpath web site and said that a Chalcogenide lens was used in the E4 to save cost.

http://www.lightpath.com/images/Products/LightPath%20Infrared_Brochure_Jan2015.pdf

I then started reading about the Chalcogenide lenses used in modern thermal cameras. I read an article detailing a company that started production of the first Chalcogenide lenses that could replace Germanium lenses. These lenses were dark grey/black in colour and opaque to visible light. The clever bit was that they could be molded to shape which saves cost. No mention was made in any relates articles about ZnSe. My experience with ZnSe  is that it is yellow in colour and very wide in bandwidth so transmits visible light as well as IR and thermal wavelengths. It normally needs a filter between it and a microbolometer.

 http://ceramics.org/ceramic-tech-today/fraunhofer-imw-molded-chalcogenide-glass-approach-delivers-low-cost-infrared-lenses

http://www.gizmag.com/cheap-infrared-lenses-fraunhofer/23659/

I was not aware that ZnSe was a chalcogenide glass. What I do know is that GASIR is not ZnSe. Exactly what it contains may be covered by commercial secrecy ?

What I can say for sure is that the GASIR product is used extensively in modern thermal cameras and ZnSe is not, so GASIR must have some advantages over ZnSe.

A Google search on GASIR does produce results discussing it. Many are too technical on the Chemistry front for me.

i.e.

https://global.arizona.edu/sites/default/files/docs/experts/Lucas-Recentadvancesinchalcogenideglasses.pdf

Just found this article stating that Germanium is a significant element in GASIR, hence the dark colour of the lenses.

http://www.photonics.com/Article.aspx?AID=24318

Hope this helps.

Aurora

Hi,

I was following this thread for quite a while. I am curious about that chalcogenide lens: has anyone an idea, which material exactly is is made of? As I read on wikipedia, chalcogenides may contain Arsen (bound, but long term stability?) and I wonder about product safety of such lenses?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenic_trisulfide

 

Offline Fraser

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13176
  • Country: gb
Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1683 on: February 13, 2015, 07:59:39 pm »
The lens is made from a product called GASIR from UMICORE. The exact content is likely a trade secret but I can confirm that it contains a percentage of Germanium yet is less affected by ambient temperature when compared to pure Germanium.

http://eom.umicore.com/en/infrared-optics/blanks/

Aurora
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 08:04:34 pm by Aurora »
If I have helped you please consider a donation : https://gofund.me/c86b0a2c
 

Offline mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13773
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1684 on: February 13, 2015, 08:02:04 pm »
The lens is made from a product called GASIR from UMICORE. The exact content is likely a trade secret but I can confirm that t contains a percentage of Germanium yet is less affected by ambient temperature when compared to pure Germaniun.

http://eom.umicore.com/en/infrared-optics/blanks/

Aurora
I suppose I could try putting it in my x-ray  fluorescence  spectrometer..
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline -jeffB

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 115
Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1685 on: February 13, 2015, 09:30:05 pm »
I was following this thread for quite a while. I am curious about that chalcogenide lens: has anyone an idea, which material exactly is is made of? As I read on wikipedia, chalcogenides may contain Arsen (bound, but long term stability?) and I wonder about product safety of such lenses?

From the paper Aurora posted (for which I never thanked him -- thanks, Aurora!), it looks like the GASIR composition(s) combine germanium with a chalcogenide composition that uses arsenic and/or antimony bound with selenium and/or tellurium.

Tellurium actually looks to be significantly more toxic than arsenic, and selenium isn't completely benign, but in a glass composition I would expect them to be very stable over the long term, posing very little risk to health, safety or the environment. Then again, I'm not a chemist, never mind a toxicologist.
 

Offline jamesd168

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 17
Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1686 on: February 14, 2015, 04:52:57 am »
the key in infrared lens is that the process needs to be able to get rid of any water or OH bonds.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 11:38:51 pm by jamesd168 »
 

Offline eneuro

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1528
  • Country: 00
Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1687 on: February 14, 2015, 07:58:09 am »
Hopefully, in some applications one can forget about those toxic lens and use much bigger....
Precision Parabolic Mirrors

from wide range of those products there:
http://www.edmundoptics.com/optics/optical-mirrors/infrared-ir-mirrors

Unfortunalelly, Seek dongle hasn't nice tube (cylinder) shape so it is difficult to put it in the focus of such mirror, so I've chosen Melexis and with laser pointer it is easy to highlight spot of interest  8)

You can see the in the dark.... without Seek or FLIR expensive toys and winner is.... $15 Melexis  connected to USB via CP2104 https://www.silabs.com/Support%20Documents/TechnicalDocs/cp2104.pdf

No more FTDI and no more FLIR  :-+
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 08:05:18 am by eneuro »
12oV4dWZCAia7vXBzQzBF9wAt1U3JWZkpk
“Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine”  - Nikola Tesla
-||-|-
 

Offline efahrenholz

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 188
Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1688 on: February 20, 2015, 03:32:03 pm »
I think it's safe to say this thread has officially fizzled. What was once a hot topic on the forum has now become a cold turd of a product. I have abandoned interest in the Seek and XR. I don't blame anyone else for following suit. It was too good to be true.

Seek, you may or may not still be viewing the thread. But now would be a great time to issue a statement on the availability of the SDK. It's been shown several times that the camera isn't capable of stable operation below ambient. The gradient issue is a hardware fault, the current app offering (which is the only supported way to grab thermal images btw) is lacking many requested features and hasn't been updated in some time. You need to let third parties improve the software. The next FLIR one release is very near. The price point will likely be competitive with your product. It's demonstrated clear visuals, low nois, decent resolution, and a good temperature range. And it is backed by a company that has has very mature software support. You will quickly lose any potential customers to a company you directly compete with, and which has a history of harassing you. Now would be a good time to protect your investment. Don't the Seek go out as a one hit failure.
 

Offline Fraser

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13176
  • Country: gb
Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1689 on: February 20, 2015, 03:49:25 pm »
I will be ordering the new FLIR One Android. It is likely to deliver on its promises.

I know some do not like FLIR due to its business practices, but I have used their equipment for enough years to know that they are generally very polished and well thought through. No matter if they are an 'awful' company....they still produce high class products and you cant take that away from them.

SEEK have not shown themselves to very customer friendly or concerned that their product does not perform as well as expected. Once I saw that 'attitude' they lost my loyalty. Little better than the infamous Mu company in that respect.

The question will be....will SEEK survive the onslaught of FLIRs marketing campaign for the new Lepton based models that they are spoon to release ? If not, owners of the SEEK will not have any support going forwards. No source code release and no SDK = little community support.

Aurora
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 04:43:24 pm by Aurora »
If I have helped you please consider a donation : https://gofund.me/c86b0a2c
 

Offline miguelvp

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5550
  • Country: us
Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1690 on: February 20, 2015, 03:51:19 pm »
yup it's dying down for now, but I'll get to improvements of the code once I'm not so busy, but that's not going to happen until 2 months or so.
 

Offline cynfab

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 177
  • Country: us
Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1691 on: February 20, 2015, 05:02:17 pm »
I'd like to do some more work on the Seek Imager software, but without any participation from Seek re. the SDK, as well as the known, proven problems with their imager, I'm not going to waste any more time on it for now.

It is rather convenient though and runs well (as well as it can) with my $49.99US Digiland 7" tablet.

For those bemoaning the loss of emissivity, try disassembling the current .apk. It is still there, but access to the menu is disabled. The current Android app is very different from earlier ones. Seems to be a bit of obfuscation going on as well, but that's a project for another day.

I too will be getting a Flir One for Android. Flir already has an SDK for their apple based product and I have no doubt that they will follow through with one for Android.

I love my E4+ and again thank all the eevblog folks for making it a +.

I'm not fond of the Windows CE firmware that drives the E4/6/8/40/60/80, neither am I fond of some of Flir's business practices, but I understand them and certainly admire the resulting camera technology.

I would also wager that the Lepton 60x80 is the beginning of a family of imagers, the 160x120 being next in the family, to be followed by a 320x240 in a few years.

As for the thread being dead, there is surely interest, but unless Seek does something (anything) I don't see any point.

   ...ken...
 

Offline WS-PI

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 23
  • Country: de
Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1692 on: February 20, 2015, 06:46:45 pm »
@ Aurora
I do not agree to your Statement "SEEK have not shown themselves to very customer friendly or concerned that their product does not perform as well as expected".
For me the SeeK performes very well to my expectations. Maybe not to yours but that is your problem not the problem of SeeK. Some month ago I was thinking about creating a thermal camera by my own using a Melix sensor and some tools for scanning. I did not even dream about buying a real thermal camera because they were too expensive. The Fir One was announced but not available for Android and with a very low temperature range.  Then the Seek entered the market and with a price label that was more than accepteable for me. I got mine in december and I am still very happy to own it. Compared to what it could have build by my own it is more than I have dreamed of. From my previous posts you may know that I did some comparision to a good FLIR and for temperatures above room temp the SeeK performes very well especially if I take the price of the FLIR and the Seek into account. For temperatures below room I simply double the reading I got from the Seek (-6° becomes -12°) and I have a accuracy that is good enough for my purposes. I still hope SeeK is going to fix that in the next revision of their APP.
For me the Flir One will never be an option as long as they do not expand the temperature range up to 300°C. For me a noisy image is much more accepatabel than a low temperature range. Nevertheless I am waiting for the SDK too. I think there is a lot of room for improvement on the software side. I think the Hardware is ok, you get what you pay for.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13773
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1693 on: February 20, 2015, 07:01:59 pm »
@ Aurora
I do not agree to your Statement "SEEK have not shown themselves to very customer friendly or concerned that their product does not perform as well as expected".


You only need to look at Seeks FB page to see that their customer service and communications have been  terrible.
And they're STILL not shipping outside US/EU

If the new F1 has a similar price, Seek is dead.
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline Nik

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 18
Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1694 on: February 20, 2015, 08:24:02 pm »
It is all about extra $50 Seek adds to obsolete device.
That is not fair. We are expecting small drop in price with the new product and even get it for the same price as its predecessor..
Seek simple cant win Flirs competition at this price.
That means Seek dead.

I have no idea why I need it for.. it is just a toy.  Even it is named as a toy: Seek thermal. It sounds as a device for kids to play with this toy in a game to seek a thermal things.
With all the pain in software and hardware, I can't wait for better product from seek anymore.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 08:26:59 pm by Nik »
 

Offline Fraser

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13176
  • Country: gb
Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1695 on: February 20, 2015, 09:13:40 pm »
@WP-Pi,

You are quite right, it did not meet my expectations and that was my problem. I collect thermal imaging technology as well as having used it for over 2 decades. My collection presently numbers over 30 cameras of various era's and technologies. For me it is telling that the Seek camera is the only one that I sold on as a disappointment.

You will see from this thread that I was a supporter of SEEK Thermal and what they were trying to achieve. What was a major disappointment to me was not the fact that there were teething troubles, but the attitude of SEEK when approached about them. Silence was their response until I highlighted the issues on their Facebook page. That did achieve a response, but that was the end of communications with me. They met queries with silence. I do not support such companies.

The SEEK camera was a revolution in terms of bangs per buck....very true. But my disappointment is due to the non acknowledgement by SEEK Thermal of the noise issue, and for a while, the gradient issue that should never have made it past prototyping. There was the opportunity for SEEK Thermal to develop the product in co-operation with the user base. This thread demonstrates the skill set available just on this forum. To date SEEK Thermal has done nothing to encourage community support around their product. No SDK, little or no meaningful communication with the user base.
It is an opportunity lost, but also a flawed hardware that should have been better sorted before release. It is still IMHO a prototype and not a polished product. Looks can indeed be deceptive.....that fancy box and case are of little importance if the image quality is quite frankly mediocre to say the least.

If SEEK had acted quickly to address image quality concerns and even developed a revised hardware release, I would not be so critical of them. Instead they released a software app that appears to hide the hardware gradient issue and a 'new' camera that is in fact nothing more than a variable focus modification at additional cost.  then the price increase on the standard (flawed) model ! Unimpressive

I am a regular user of professional industrial grade thermal imaging cameras and so maybe I am more critical than most users. I would accept that comment but it does not change the fact that the SEEK Camera is flawed and we, as users, have not seen the support or communications that a customer would expect from a manufacturer. $200 (now $250) is not a lot of money for me to drop on a 'toy', but that is not necessarily the case for other buyers.

As you stated, it was my problem....so I took possession of it and sent the SEEK Camera to a new home ! The only thermal camera that I no longer wished to own. For me, that speaks volumes.

Even if the new FLIR One Android costs twice the price of the SEEK, IMHO, it will still offer better value for money in terms of performance Vs cost.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion though, and owners that like their SEEK camera still have something that can do more than a simple IR thermometer so, for them, it may be adequate.

I truly hope you continue to enjoy your SEEK camera.

Aurora
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 10:25:40 pm by Aurora »
If I have helped you please consider a donation : https://gofund.me/c86b0a2c
 

Offline z01z

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 151
Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1696 on: February 20, 2015, 10:04:57 pm »
A new version of the Android APP has been released, with a new feature that lets you move and resize the the phone camera image.
I wonder, why did they choose this split screen solution? Some other thermal cameras have nice overlay views, which is much better, this split screen thing is close to useless, at least for me.
 

Offline Hyperion

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 8
Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1697 on: February 21, 2015, 07:55:31 am »
A new version of the Android APP has been released, with a new feature that lets you move and resize the the phone camera image.
I wonder, why did they choose this split screen solution? Some other thermal cameras have nice overlay views, which is much better, this split screen thing is close to useless, at least for me.

Because other companies may hold patents or other rights to the feature you are referring to.

I note that in this new version (my phone installed it automatically today), that the "lagging" issue is now fixed. Previously there very bad lag every few seconds and accordingly the video recording feature was useless. Now it seems improved.
 

Offline WS-PI

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 23
  • Country: de
Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1698 on: February 21, 2015, 12:20:57 pm »
@Aurora
I can fully understand that you have different expectations than I have. I am new to thermal Imaging, just work two year now with a FILR at my work place. With the Seek I now have the possibility to use a thermal cam also for private things. If I compare both wrt capabilities and price  I am still impressed what Seek delivers for just 199$. Ok in the mean time the price was increased but I still would buy it.
As far as I know Seek is a new company. Therfore I tend to give them some time for improvements wrt to customer service and maybe software and hardware. Since I have my Seek I got the second updated APP and both has siginificant improvements from my point of view. The first update removed the Gradient issue and the second one, installed today, removed the lagging I saw on my SG4. If they continue with this speed of updates I am satisfied with their customer service. I think for Seek it is much harder to improve the picture quality as it is for FLIR. Seek has to provide a SW that works on a broad range of Android phones with different hardware wrt computing power. FLIR can make a SW for a specific hardware. I think if the SDK is released the comunity will see it might be possible to get noise free Images but if that then will run on any phone with sufficient frame rate I have my daubts.
 

Offline efahrenholz

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 188
Re: Yet another cheap thermal imager incoming.. Seek Thermal
« Reply #1699 on: February 22, 2015, 01:54:53 pm »
Did the new update add anything other than an improvement to a useless feature? I sincerely hope this wasn't what took them so long. But at this point I can't expect anything better. They took the average joes thermal camera torch and just ran with it.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf