FranLab is getting evicted

[Kasper]

If crime stats are per capita and don't account for tourists, it pushes up crime stats in areas with lots of tourism.

[Kasper]

The homeless activists aren't actually helping anyone, they're just enabling, and it's costing all of us.

They are helping themselves and their friends live off the tax payers.  It's extortion: pay me to give 'free' stuff to my friends or else they'll cause problems.

I think a better solution would be exponentially increasing sentences for repeat offenders.  Separate the really awful people from the 'down on their luck' people and it should be easier to get them back on their feet.

[EEVblog]

[tom66]

I think a better solution would be exponentially increasing sentences for repeat offenders.  Separate the really awful people from the 'down on their luck' people and it should be easier to get them back on their feet.

What's the annual cost of a prison cell?  ISTR it's somewhere around $25-30k/year in the US.  A lot of money: it would be cheaper to give these people a universal basic income and a flat rather than put them in prison.  Which is more or less what Finland does to great success amongst other countries.

But the US persists with this notion that criminals go away if you just wring them through the prison system enough times.  It doesn't work, it never will, and it just makes things worse.  Having almost 1% of the population in prison at any one time is absurd.  There is no single US state with less people in prison than any European nation and the US is ahead of most dictatorships.  Oh, but it has to persist because it's cheap labour for the state and changes election demographics too (felons can't vote, after all.)

Yes, there are some people who deserve to be in prison, and there are some people who need to be in prison for the rest of their lives because of the danger they pose.  These people are a tiny fraction of the actual prison population though and if people were afforded the proper opportunities in life they wouldn't be stuck in a system which is inhumane and ineffective.

/rant

[PlainName]

it would be cheaper to give these people a universal basic income and a flat rather than put them in prison.

Technically, in prison they can't do things they can do if they have money and a flat, and freedom to use them.

[james_s]

What's the annual cost of a prison cell?  ISTR it's somewhere around $25-30k/year in the US.  A lot of money: it would be cheaper to give these people a universal basic income and a flat rather than put them in prison.  Which is more or less what Finland does to great success amongst other countries.

Yeah, give them a basic income so they have more money to buy drugs and pass out on the sidewalk 

I don't understand this fantasy that homeless people are all just poor downtrodden folks that have hit hard times and ended up on the street and that if only they had a place to call home they'd be back on their feet and functioning members of society. Unfortunately it's just that, a fantasy. I don't know if it's the same in other countries but the US shut down the mental institutions and never really replaced them with anything so the patients that had nowhere to go were dumped out on the street. Many of those self medicate and become addicts, and many people that are not mentally ill spiral down into drug use and their addiction causes them to become homeless. Opiates in particular are incredibly powerful, a person that is addicted to heroin doesn't care about having a job, they don't care about their family, their friends, their well being, the only thing they care about is getting their next fix. These are people that cannot help themselves, the only solution is to force them into addiction treatment and then some of them could potentially get a job and take care of themselves. The USA is not Finland. For the people that really want help, we have all sorts of resources to help them. But when you actually look at the data, something like 80% of the homeless in Seattle (where I happen to be) turn down offers for housing, they prefer to "camp", it's their chosen lifestyle. They can steal anything they need virtually free of consequences, they don't have to follow any rules, they can get high all day long, they can do whatever they want. Our approach to the problem doesn't solve anything, it only enables them.

$30k a year is jack squat in the large cities where this is a problem, it's not enough to live on except maybe in a dumpy high crime low income apartment. The cost of jailing a person is also not the entire picture, the crimes they commit have an enormous cost to society. Just last week in Seattle a homeless man with a lengthy rap sheet broke into a boat storage facility and deliberately set a building full of boats on fire, the incident cased a massive fire department response and resulted in the total destruction of over $8 Million dollars worth of boats people were storing there, plus the loss of the structure. It would have been FAR better for everyone involved if this man had been in jail where he belongs, and probably better for him too since he would have no choice but to get treatment for his mental illness and/or drug used. This is only one incident, there are countless others. Seattle alone has spent over $1 Billion in recent years on the homeless problem and the only thing they have to show for it is a massive increase in the number of homeless people (they migrate here for the benefits, duh) and now the regional homeless authority wants a stagging $12 Billion and the mayor is trying to pass a property tax to collect nearly another billion dolllars. No, just NO. I work for a living, I dont want my limited money going to support people that could work but don't want to. Once all the career criminals are in prison and the junkies are in treatment and the mentally ill are in treatment then we can talk about how to help the handful that are left over.

[nctnico]

What's the annual cost of a prison cell?  ISTR it's somewhere around $25-30k/year in the US.  A lot of money: it would be cheaper to give these people a universal basic income and a flat rather than put them in prison.  Which is more or less what Finland does to great success amongst other countries.

Yeah, give them a basic income so they have more money to buy drugs and pass out on the sidewalk 

I don't understand this fantasy that homeless people are all just poor downtrodden folks that have hit hard times and ended up on the street and that if only they had a place to call home they'd be back on their feet and functioning members of society. Unfortunately it's just that, a fantasy. I don't know if it's the same in other countries but the US shut down the mental institutions and never really replaced them with anything so the patients that had nowhere to go were dumped out on the street. Many of those self medicate and become addicts, and many people that are not mentally ill spiral down into drug use and their addiction causes them to become homeless. Opiates in particular are incredibly powerful, a person that is addicted to heroin doesn't care about having a job, they don't care about their family, their friends, their well being, the only thing they care about is getting their next fix. These are people that cannot help themselves, the only solution is to force them into addiction treatment and then some of them could potentially get a job and take care of themselves. The USA is not Finland. For the people that really want help, we have all sorts of resources to help them. But when you actually look at the data, something like 80% of the homeless in Seattle (where I happen to be) turn down offers for housing, they prefer to "camp", it's their chosen lifestyle. They can steal anything they need virtually free of consequences, they don't have to follow any rules, they can get high all day long, they can do whatever they want. Our approach to the problem doesn't solve anything, it only enables them.

$30k a year is jack squat in the large cities where this is a problem, it's not enough to live on except maybe in a dumpy high crime low income apartment. The cost of jailing a person is also not the entire picture, the crimes they commit have an enormous cost to society. Just last week in Seattle a homeless man with a lengthy rap sheet broke into a boat storage facility and deliberately set a building full of boats on fire, the incident cased a massive fire department response and resulted in the total destruction of over $8 Million dollars worth of boats people were storing there, plus the loss of the structure. It would have been FAR better for everyone involved if this man had been in jail where he belongs

No, people like this belong in a mental institution (like you started with) where they get the treatment they need! It is of no use to put people in jail without addressing their problems properly. But it takes some people higher up to understand their problems and how to address these problems the right way. Putting mental patients between criminals in jail is only making things worse. I don't know how things are setup in the US if in the NL you can end up being convicted to be treated for mental problems in case of criminal behaviour and (typically) you only get out if you are cured.

However, there are quite a few people that prefer to have a homeless lifestyle and don't bother anyone. I'd say: leave those as they are.

[Kasper]

What's the annual cost of a prison cell?  ISTR it's somewhere around $25-30k/year in the US.  A lot of money: it would be cheaper to give these people a universal basic income and a flat rather than put them in prison.

You state that as if it is fact even though you are very likely to be wrong.

$30k is like 3 stolen bikes or 1 stolen car, 1 trashed rental home, 1/10 of an arson attack, 1 violent attack leading to loss of work, etc.  People impose those costs to society many many times per year.  Some have dozens of convictions and keep getting short sentences.

Think of the value of goods they destroy, the cost of police, lawyers, judges, healthcare workers, security system installers, fence builders, auto repairs, fire fighters, etc.

They give free homes, food, drugs and welfare out here.  It is horrific. Every time they open supportive housing, the neighborhood turns into zombieland and a hot spot appears on the crime map.  You imply it would erradicate crime but it doesn't even reduce it. It actually increases it.

Finland is not comparible because it is a cold climate.  Even just within Canada there are different homeless populations that are attributed to different climates.

[james_s]

No, people like this belong in a mental institution (like you started with) where they get the treatment they need! It is of no use of put people in jail without addressing their problems properly. There are quite a few people that prefer to have a homeless lifestyle and don't bother anyone. I'd say: leave those as they are.

But they do bother people. They shoplift and break into cars, they leave mountains of trash all over the place, they cover the sidewalks with tents and line the streets with dilapidated RVs. They piss and shit all over the sidewalks and alleys, it's a complete mess.

Don't take my word for it though, visit Seattle or San Francisco, Los Angeles or Chicago, etc and see for yourself. You won't even notice the old fashioned hobos that keep out of trouble, there are junkies everywhere, I've seen people sitting on the bench in front of my office smoking crack out of a glass pipe in broad daylight. I see people passed out on sidewalks, used needles and condoms and trash littering public parks, the area around the courthouse is so bad that for a while there were frequent assaults and there as one guy that had something like 77 arrests and he was still out assaulting people. One of them attacked and killed a dog that some innocent person was walking on a leash, Capital Hill has had more shootings already this year than in the entirety of 2022, it's out of control and it's just getting worse and worse. The focus has been entirely on providing housing and perks with homeless advocates pushing for them to just be left alone. The bad guys aren't being arrested and aren't being kept locked up if they are, the junkies aren't being put into treatment, the mentally ill aren't getting treatment for that, and they're all just mixed together so it's hard to even know what's what. They need to be picked up, locked up, sorted, and treated as needed rather than just ignored and left to their own devices. It's frustrating that I have to follow laws but there is this other group that can do whatever they want, seemingly without consequences. I've been in the hardware store more than once and seen a homeless guy walk right out with a cart full of stuff simply ignoring the employees telling him to stop and I wonder why I bother to pay for my own stuff. The current approach is not working, period, and I refuse to support spending another dime until there is transparency, accountability, and until we acknowledge that at least a portion of them belong in prison. Treat them first, then if they are able to take care of themselves to some degree assist them in finding housing which is monitored so they don't fall right back into the cycle of drug abuse.

[nctnico]

What's the annual cost of a prison cell?  ISTR it's somewhere around $25-30k/year in the US.  A lot of money: it would be cheaper to give these people a universal basic income and a flat rather than put them in prison.

You state that as if it is fact even though you are very likely to be wrong.

$30k is like 3 stolen bikes or 1 stolen car, 1 trashed rental home, 1/10 of an arson attack, 1 violent attack leading to loss of work, etc.  People impose those costs to society many many times per year.  Some have dozens of convictions and keep getting short sentences.

Which simply indicates that putting people in prison is a waste of money as well and society as a whole isn't capable of addressing the underlying problem.

[james_s]

Which simply indicates that putting people in prison is a waste of money as well and society as a whole isn't capable of addressing the underlying problem.

Which is what exactly?

I don't have the data in front of me so take this part with a grain of salt but I read somewhere that an estimated 70% of the US prison population has a cluster B personality disorder, Antisocial Personality Disorder is one of the most common. This is a brain disorder that causes among other things a complete inability to feel empathy, they are hardwired to be self absorbed and care only about themselves, they can't be fixed.

I do agree that far too many people are in jail for nonviolent drug offenses and I think there needs to be a lot more emphasis on treatment, but there is not, there is nothing to compel them into treatment and sobriety. I also think that it is ridiculous that there are people with 20, 30, 40 or more convictions that are still free. I believe in second chances, but at some point you have to acknowledge that someone is just not going to change, you can't save them all. The purpose of jail is not so much punishment or rehabilitation as it is for protecting the rest of society from certain people that just can't or won't play by the rules.

Other countries have different cultures and different environments, it doesn't work to project one's own culture onto people in some other area and assume that the same solutions will work.

[Kasper]

What's the annual cost of a prison cell?  ISTR it's somewhere around $25-30k/year in the US.  A lot of money: it would be cheaper to give these people a universal basic income and a flat rather than put them in prison.

You state that as if it is fact even though you are very likely to be wrong.

$30k is like 3 stolen bikes or 1 stolen car, 1 trashed rental home, 1/10 of an arson attack, 1 violent attack leading to loss of work, etc.  People impose those costs to society many many times per year.  Some have dozens of convictions and keep getting short sentences.

Which simply indicates that putting people in prison is a waste of money as well and society as a whole isn't capable of addressing the underlying problem.

No, it shows that giving repeat offenders free reign to offend repeatidly is much more expensive than locking them up in jail, rehab, treatment or where ever.

Letting them do drugs and crime isn't helping them either.  We mind as well reduce the costs and harm they cause to others.  If we can help them become decent in the process, that's a bonus.

[beanflying]

Which simply indicates that putting people in prison is a waste of money as well and society as a whole isn't capable of addressing the underlying problem.

Which is what exactly?

I don't have the data in front of me so take this part with a grain of salt but I read somewhere that an estimated 70% of the US prison population has a cluster B personality disorder, Antisocial Personality Disorder is one of the most common. This is a brain disorder that causes among other things a complete inability to feel empathy, they are hardwired to be self absorbed and care only about themselves, they can't be fixed.

I do agree that far too many people are in jail for nonviolent drug offenses and I think there needs to be a lot more emphasis on treatment, but there is not, there is nothing to compel them into treatment and sobriety. I also think that it is ridiculous that there are people with 20, 30, 40 or more convictions that are still free. I believe in second chances, but at some point you have to acknowledge that someone is just not going to change, you can't save them all. The purpose of jail is not so much punishment or rehabilitation as it is for protecting the rest of society from certain people that just can't or won't play by the rules.

Other countries have different cultures and different environments, it doesn't work to project one's own culture onto people in some other area and assume that the same solutions will work.

What a load of complete codswallop!

The USA has some of the WORST public health and Social backups services and tops the Prison rates on a worldwide basis. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/incarceration-rates-by-country

There is a correlation here and it starts with acknowledging what causes a lot of the problems of Crime, Drugs, Social and Mental Health issues. Trying to blanket blame 'drugs' is a complete load of 

[NiHaoMike]

Which simply indicates that putting people in prison is a waste of money as well and society as a whole isn't capable of addressing the underlying problem.

Use violent criminals for medical experimentation, then it would be the healthcare system that pays for their housing in such a way that most would be happy to pay. Instead of being a resource drain on society, they'll effectively be forced to give back. Even for those who think the life of a criminal is worth as much as an innocent person's life, the sacrifice of just one criminal could save thousands of innocent lives in the future.

[themadhippy]

How about the large pharma corps pay for  dealing with the current opiates problem that they caused by encouraging the overprescription of so called medicines,and whilst there make all drugs legal, treat  them like those legal drugs,alcohol and nicotine.

[james_s]

What a load of complete codswallop!

The USA has some of the WORST public health and Social backups services and tops the Prison rates on a worldwide basis. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/incarceration-rates-by-country

There is a correlation here and it starts with acknowledging what causes a lot of the problems of Crime, Drugs, Social and Mental Health issues. Trying to blanket blame 'drugs' is a complete load of 

So I'll repeat the question, which is what exactly? What exactly is the cause of the crimes and problems? And how much time have you personally spent in the USA studying the situation we have here? Please point out specifically what I said that is incorrect and provide the correct information.

I'm not making assumptions about how things work in your country and do not feel qualified to comment on it, why do you feel qualified to comment on mine?

[nctnico]

Which simply indicates that putting people in prison is a waste of money as well and society as a whole isn't capable of addressing the underlying problem.

Which is what exactly?

I don't have the data in front of me so take this part with a grain of salt but I read somewhere that an estimated 70% of the US prison population has a cluster B personality disorder, Antisocial Personality Disorder is one of the most common. This is a brain disorder that causes among other things a complete inability to feel empathy, they are hardwired to be self absorbed and care only about themselves, they can't be fixed.

I do agree that far too many people are in jail for nonviolent drug offenses and I think there needs to be a lot more emphasis on treatment, but there is not, there is nothing to compel them into treatment and sobriety. I also think that it is ridiculous that there are people with 20, 30, 40 or more convictions that are still free. I believe in second chances, but at some point you have to acknowledge that someone is just not going to change, you can't save them all. The purpose of jail is not so much punishment or rehabilitation as it is for protecting the rest of society from certain people that just can't or won't play by the rules.

But now you are basically saying prisons are human waste dumps. Not to attack you personally, but it more or less comes down to it.

Other countries have different cultures and different environments, it doesn't work to project one's own culture onto people in some other area and assume that the same solutions will work.

If it is a cultural thing then it needs to change. The NL got a lot of flack (also from people from the US) due to black Pete, a tradition which can be traced back to 1100 BC... but nowadays it is somehow considered racist and 'we' changed it. So if the NL can change a tradition that has been part of our culture for over 3000 years, the US certainly can change their culture of not caring for people obviously in need.

In the end you can't deny the facts that the US has an excessively large portion of the population behind bars and some areas have extreme criminality rates. Given the fact that a significant portion of the US citizens (and more so the ones that have political power) stem from Europe, it makes sense to compare with Europe. You could expect that some of the European culture remained beyond St Patrick's day. However, such a bad situation where it comes to crime & imprissonment doesn't exist in Europe. So where did the US go wrong? How does such a bad situation become acceptable to a society?

[themadhippy]

Easter is more then a long weekend bunny's eggs & a chocolate binge.

indeed,its another party stolen from the pagans and used in the big book of fairy tales.Even ian hunter jumped on the band wagon
https://youtu.be/yKmvTcSzcE8

[tom66]

[...] What exactly is the cause of the crimes and problems?

The problems in the US wrt to homelessness would be:

- Lack of affordable healthcare, meaning that any significant mental illness, depression, pain, or other condition making it hard or impossible to work means it's very easy to fall off the wagon.

- As above but then seeking drugs (opioids typically) from dodgy doctors who prescribed them because they were getting kickbacks from big pharma or bribed by desperate patients. Alcohol could also be involved, the US has very cheap alcohol in many states and limited resources to deal with alcoholism.

- Those people then being unable to afford the opioid script (due to loss of income) or alcohol or whatever other coping mechanism they have, and therefore going to harder street drugs like heroin and meth, which have painkilling effects but obviously other significant side effects.  Due to these drugs being typically cut with other hazardous substances further illness or dependency can develop.  Crimes may be committed to ensure income for these drugs, as withdrawal from harder opioids is no joke (can be fatal).

- The lack of a coherent drug policy, basically just "drugs are illegal and possession of drugs is illegal", making it a crime to possess drugs even just for personal use.  These people then end up in the legal system.

- The lack of a coherent housing policy, so if you become unable to afford rent or mortgage, you are just homeless.  Try getting a job or bank account without a fixed address - it is incredibly difficult in most countries, including the UK.

- Even if you do manage to get clean through sheer willpower (some states do fund drug rehab) you are going to find it incredibly hard to get a decent job once you've got to this situation, because employers don't want to hire ex-cons.  My understanding is that most criminal records are never expunged in the US, and even if you do have it expunged from your official record, you do still have to declare this to the employer.  Comparably in the UK, for all but the most serious offences, a basic criminal record check will not show history more than 6 years ago.

- Combine parenthood with this and it's very easy for children to be born to single parent families or broken households, and all the data shows kids in single parent families have worse outcomes than those with two parents. 

Not every country gets these things right, the US is not alone.  However, the best countries understand that people are fallible, and that given the right care and attention, most people will end up as good, contributing members of society.  It is absolutely the case that there are some people that will steal and commit crimes regardless and I would agree that the UK fails to properly deal with repeat troublesome offenders (as well as the US).  However, that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to fix whomever you can.

There are a lot of studies that have analysed why people become drug addicts.  It's not usually moral failing or lust or anything like that, but loss of family structure, illness and income are usually triggers. 

[SiliconWizard]

Which simply indicates that putting people in prison is a waste of money as well and society as a whole isn't capable of addressing the underlying problem.

Use violent criminals for medical experimentation, then it would be the healthcare system that pays for their housing in such a way that most would be happy to pay. Instead of being a resource drain on society, they'll effectively be forced to give back. Even for those who think the life of a criminal is worth as much as an innocent person's life, the sacrifice of just one criminal could save thousands of innocent lives in the future.

That's what we used to do thousands of years ago and up to relatively recently, like in the USSR and I think in Germany during WWII... just that they considered political opponents to be dangerous criminals, but who are we to judge.

Recent history has shown that we could do this even with perfectly innocent citizens, anyway. So why care.

I don't know for sure what we should do with criminals (not a simple question), but I'm not too keen on this kind of stuff. It's like keeping your principles and values even when the other has not.
So, yeah. Dunno.
 

[Kasper]

loss of Christianity is at the root cause of most social problems  :'(
as a nation moves away from God, people become more selfish & greedy.
Easter is more then a long weekend bunny's eggs & a chocolate binge.

I think I contributed to derailling this thread and for that I apologize but this is way off topic and should be moved to it's own thread.  Preferably on a different forum.

[EEVblog]

I'm concerned for Franlab again.
Patreon numbers look like they have declined to the same level that prompted the last call for increased funding. Although this doesn't say what the total funding is, it may still be high enough if the existing Patrons have upped their pledges.
Youtube views consistent, but only one 6 digit viral hit recently. Not that Youtube income really brings in any major income anyway.

[EEVblog]

And both myself and Electroboom have seen rather large continual drop-off in Patrons. Maybe Patreon is starting to decline from being "the thing"?
If so Fran might strugle to maintain Patrons regardless over the coming years.

[.RC.]

When you look at the brain melting utter crap on youtube getting tens of millions of views on youtube, then the small numbers of views for videos that might actually help the human race advance further in to the future it is depressing.

It seems the answer is Electroboom and EEVBlog and others need to get some implants and make a video of them running their house by cobbling together a HDD and an AAA battery with their new tits outs and have their mouth open and they will get their tens or hundreds of millions of views.   

The depravity of youtube really opens the eyes. What they allow and disallow on their platform really shows what a bad corporation they are.

[james_s]

When you look at the brain melting utter crap on youtube getting tens of millions of views on youtube, then the small numbers of views for videos that might actually help the human race advance further in to the future it is depressing.

It seems the answer is Electroboom and EEVBlog and others need to get some implants and make a video of them running their house by cobbling together a HDD and an AAA battery with their new tits outs and have their mouth open and they will get their tens or hundreds of millions of views.   

The depravity of youtube really opens the eyes. What they allow and disallow on their platform really shows what a bad corporation they are.

That's really nothing new. Freak shows have not been politically correct in a long time, but they were one of the more popular parts of travelling circus shows when they existed. Entertainment tends to cater to the lowest common denominator, it's the reason there's so much "reality" trash on TV, at least there was the last time I tried watching TV.