At last, Siglent's SDS5054X touchscreen DSO...

[Martin72]

At last a review and Dave finds immediately some bugs..
I wonder why the intensity grading is worser against the sds1104-xe... 

[tautech]

In Dave's review video around 13:15 and 47:23, he mentions about knob behavior. Seems Siglent still hasn't figured out how to do the rotation input handling properly (i.e. looks a bit similar to SDS2000X after the firmware improvements, i.e. usable, but still not nice).

All Siglents other recent scopes do this quite well and in more recent times there's also been a move to virtual keyboards that are far easier to make bigger parameter changes with than twiddling a knob, be it with algorithm acceleration or not.

And no, touchscreen is not a valid excuse, because for many parameters knobs win in usability 10-0. Or would, if working nicely.

You have that entirely wrong, the current touch configuration combined with virtual keyboards will win a major parameter change hands down. Maybe for just a few digits encoders will win but not in the couple of days I had a SDS5034X to play with. Dave didn't spend a lot of time on virtual keyboard use and show how fast it can be compared to using encoders.
SDS5034X was the first touch display scope I'd ever used so there was some different way of using it to get used to and IMO Dave was showing what are inconsistencies in the UI between touch use and traditional physical adjustments of which there currently are several. That's fair enough, like Dave says the SDS5kX still needs some polish.

[nctnico]

I have to agree. On equipment with a (virtual) keyboard I never use a rotary knob to set a number. Simply punching in a number is much quicker.

[2N3055]

I have to agree. On equipment with a (virtual) keyboard I never use a rotary knob to set a number. Simply punching in a number is much quicker.

I also agree, virtual keyboard is 80% of touch screen usability improvement.

[bugi]

And no, touchscreen is not a valid excuse, because for many parameters knobs win in usability 10-0. Or would, if working nicely.

You have that entirely wrong, the current touch configuration combined with virtual keyboards will win a major parameter change hands down. Maybe for just a few digits encoders will win but not in the couple of days I had a SDS5034X to play with. Dave didn't spend a lot of time on virtual keyboard use and show how fast it can be compared to using encoders.

For a large set or step change, virtual keyboard wins, I agree on that, but for the finer repeated adjustments the knob wins, or when the needed value is not known (say, unknown signal goes out the top of screen, and you want to adjust offset so that it comes into view). And for some reason, in my so far done usage, I seem to be continuously doing such small adjustments (mainly on cursors, offsets, trigger levels/timings). I guess I should have realized to write it "for many parameters and small adjustments".  In this case with the "is not a valid excuse" I tried to tackle those who would come and say that knobs are completely obsolete simply because of touchscreen.

Another thing where touchscreen wins knobs is doing selections (menus and such), where a knob sucks (especially when there is no fine-level feedback on where the sort of "invisible pointer" is going in the menu).

Just to be clear, I do like to have touchscreens and virtual keyboards; more options for user input is better, especially when there are so many different kinds of needs in an oscilloscope. But I also like proper knob (and button etc.) implementations and prefer them for many a task.  Hmm.. there are still some more that could be moved from knobs to touchscreen if the touchscreen version was implemented well, but what I have seen so far seems to indicate that the responsiveness isn't good enough (e.g. instead of having around 30Hz update rate on the view, it looks more like 3Hz in some cases; doesn't affect virtual keyboard input, but does affect e.g. dragging).


I wonder, if the other recent Siglent scope models have done the knobs better, what happened... why not in this more expensive scope series.

[tautech]

And no, touchscreen is not a valid excuse, because for many parameters knobs win in usability 10-0. Or would, if working nicely.

You have that entirely wrong, the current touch configuration combined with virtual keyboards will win a major parameter change hands down. Maybe for just a few digits encoders will win but not in the couple of days I had a SDS5034X to play with. Dave didn't spend a lot of time on virtual keyboard use and show how fast it can be compared to using encoders.

For a large set or step change, virtual keyboard wins, I agree on that, but for the finer repeated adjustments the knob wins, or when the needed value is not known (say, unknown signal goes out the top of screen, and you want to adjust offset so that it comes into view). And for some reason, in my so far done usage, I seem to be continuously doing such small adjustments (mainly on cursors, offsets, trigger levels/timings). I guess I should have realized to write it "for many parameters and small adjustments".  In this case with the "is not a valid excuse" I tried to tackle those who would come and say that knobs are completely obsolete simply because of touchscreen.

Another thing where touchscreen wins knobs is doing selections (menus and such), where a knob sucks (especially when there is no fine-level feedback on where the sort of "invisible pointer" is going in the menu).

Just to be clear, I do like to have touchscreens and virtual keyboards; more options for user input is better, especially when there are so many different kinds of needs in an oscilloscope. But I also like proper knob (and button etc.) implementations and prefer them for many a task.  Hmm.. there are still some more that could be moved from knobs to touchscreen if the touchscreen version was implemented well, but what I have seen so far seems to indicate that the responsiveness isn't good enough (e.g. instead of having around 30Hz update rate on the view, it looks more like 3Hz in some cases; doesn't affect virtual keyboard input, but does affect e.g. dragging).


I wonder, if the other recent Siglent scope models have done the knobs better, what happened... why not in this more expensive scope series.

Remember SDS5kX is a completely new UI for Siglent so I imagine encoder acceleration is lower on the list than getting other more important functionality running and polished. For now the virtual keyboard meets the needs of touch users well enough until encoder acceleration can be properly implemented.
Performa01 will know more about where it lies on the 'to do' list.

[Performa01]

Remember SDS5kX is a completely new UI for Siglent so I imagine encoder acceleration is lower on the list than getting other more important functionality running and polished. For now the virtual keyboard meets the needs of touch users well enough until encoder acceleration can be properly implemented.
Performa01 will know more about where it lies on the 'to do' list.

I was surprised as well when I first noticed that there is no encoder acceleration. But then I adapted my habits by using gestures to coarse adjust x/y-positions and the encoder for precise fine positioning.

But now, after watching Dave’s video, I have brought up this topic again and so we’ll hopefully get some improvement for this.

For example the SDS1004X-E does have the encoder acceleration, it’s just not very good as it seems to  have just two speed steps, which certainly isn’t nearly enough to cover the huge number range that is required for some settings, e.g. x-position on a strongly zoomed waveform. But then there we have the Navigate function at least. On the other hand the 2nd speed is a bit too aggressive for fine adjust, which has to be done rather slowly because of this.

So ideally I’d like to see a quasi-continuous variable acceleration, i.e. multiple speed steps for the encoders.

Until then, we could make do with the SDS1004X-E implementation on a touch UI, but with a less aggressive acceleration for the 2nd stage.

[bugi]

I think Dave also mentioned that the knobs sometimes seem to miss an input step, i.e. moves less than expected. I.e. not just acceleration issues. However, it could be that he was rotating fast enough that it was continuously in some acceleration level, and at some actions somehow dropped to unaccelerated, feeling like missing a bit. Either way, bad user experience.

[0xdeadbeef]

I just wonder: it was mentioned multiple times how Siglent's attitude towards fixing bugs and the like had improved. Yet I figure more than two months have passed since the last firmware update and the last available firmware version is still the one that Dave has used in his review (V0.8.2R1). So is there any hope they work on fixing the known issues, improving the FFT etc. or was all this improved customer service thing just wishful thinking after all?

[tv84]

two months have passed since the last firmware update and the last available firmware version is still the one that Dave has used in his review (V0.8.2R1).

The FW is from March 29th... Not the end of the world.

Let's give them time to make things right.

[Martin72]

Let's give them time to make things right.

Nearly 5 months are nothing against the 18(!) months I´m waiting for debugging the WS3024(SDS3024)....

[0xdeadbeef]

Though it's slightly unfair to compare the situation of a scope that's out of production and was superseded by a newer model quite some time ago with that of the newest flagship model.

[nctnico]

Let's give them time to make things right.

Nearly 5 months are nothing against the 18(!) months I´m waiting for debugging the WS3024(SDS3024)....

Isn't that model fitted with firmware made by Lecroy? AFAIK the WS3000 is produced by Siglent but Lecroy wrote the firmware.

[Martin72]

Though it's slightly unfair to compare the situation of a scope that's out of production

Yes and no.

The firmware updates concerns both, WS3000 and WS3000Z until today.
I´m in touch with lecroy since january 2018 what the bugs concerns ( There a two real big bugs, known and confirmed).
Last answer was end of july, where they more or less directly told to me, that I shouldn´t have to count on it in the near future.

[tautech]

I just wonder: it was mentioned multiple times how Siglent's attitude towards fixing bugs and the like had improved. Yet I figure more than two months have passed since the last firmware update and the last available firmware version is still the one that Dave has used in his review (V0.8.2R1). So is there any hope they work on fixing the known issues, improving the FFT etc. or was all this improved customer service thing just wishful thinking after all?

There's a heap of work going on behind the scenes, beta FW is now V0.8.5....... and more features and capability are being added all the time.

Now I have SDS5054X I'm watching FW developments when I get the time.

[Performa01]

How long did you have to wait for a FW-Update for - let's say - the new R&S DSOs?

Siglent usually releases a new FW every 6 months (as long as there are no serious bugs).

The V0.8.2R1 firmware has been created back in early April this year - less than 4.5 months ago.

Current beta FW is V0.8.5R2 and most of the criticisms Dave voiced in his review have been addressed already. That's on top of all the fixes, improvements and new features from the original roadmap. This version would cetainly be good enough to be released, but evil beta testers keep criticising certain implementation details that affect the user interface.

For instance, the previous beta FW V0.8.4R4 introduced a bunch of additional measurements, which makes it pointless (if not impossible) to keep the current "all measurements" function, because there are now just too many items. Instead we get a configurable overview, but beta testers found its operation a bit confusing for the user, so requested an UI change, which has already been implemented in the V0.8.5R2 FW. Siglent obviously doesn't want to confuse users by frequent UI changes but only present them a final version that has been approved by all beta testers.

In case of the Bode Plot II and the improved FFT, these features even trickled down to the entry level model SDS1004X-E - and the SDS5000X implementation is even nicer - and continues to be improved.

I've always stated that it would take at least another year until the SDS5000X can be reasonably feature complete. You can expect a major step with the next FW release, but there is still more to come...

[nctnico]

How long did you have to wait for a FW-Update for - let's say - the new R&S DSOs?

But these wheren't released with firmware in a beta state so this is not a good comparison.

[2N3055]

How long did you have to wait for a FW-Update for - let's say - the new R&S DSOs?

But these wheren't released with firmware in a beta state so this is not a good comparison.

Respectfuly Nico, they were pretty much released in beta state. RTB 2000 had bugs in basic display of waveforms, had 4 operations math, etc etc.
3000 series was better, because it built od 2000 codebase..
We had this discussion before. R&S scopes nowadays are not a good example of bug free product release..

[0xdeadbeef]

Might be a weird question but does anybody know what's the frequency and Vss on the calibration output? 1kHz and 1V or something different?

[tautech]

Might be a weird question but does anybody know what's the frequency and Vss on the calibration output? 1kHz and 1V or something different?

1 KHz 3V
Probes have rubber plugged 2 trimmer HF adjustments too but you need a 1 MHz square wave to do the HF adjustment. Probe datasheet has the spec and process to do the HF adjustments.

[0xdeadbeef]

Great, thanks.

[tautech]

Great, thanks.

Probe specs from reply #229
https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/SP3025A_3050A_Users_Guide.pdf

[tautech]

Screenshot showing the recently added Power Analysis in beta FW 8.7**

[randomOracle]

Hi everyone,

I'm a new owner of an SDS5104X. First impression is great, however, my primary reason to buy it was the 10 MHz Ref In/Out connector.
Unfortunately, I'm not able to confirm whether or not the synchronization with an SDG2042X works.

In general, there should be two options:
1) sync the scope to the AWG (AWG provides 10 MHz out)
2) sync the AWG to the scope (scope provides 10 MHz out)

For 1) the procedure is rather straight forward:
leaving the 10 MHz ref unconnected, set the scope clock source from internal to external -- there is no warning whatsoever that there is no clock; it continues to operate as if nothing happened; then I connect the 10 MHz from the AWG -- again, there is no notification that now a clock is available.
For 2) the procedure feels wrong:
as default, both AWG and scope use the 10 MHz connector as output, so connecting the two results in both instruments driving the outputs against each other (could this cause damage?). however, only then it is possible to set the clock to external on the AWG since if no external clock is detected, it automatically reverts back to internal; so for a very brief period of time, there is no way to avoid that both outputs are driving against each other.

Is there an easy check to confirm that the scope is successfully synced to the AWG? Right now, I doubt the 10 MHz is working properly. Any help is greatly appreciated.

[tautech]

There has been a change in the clock Ref scheme for SDG2000X in very recent firmware and I suggest you install it.
Particularly these from the change notes:
5. Added an icon to indicate clock source is internal or external.
Internal: External: External and the clock is lost:
6. Changed the clock switch strategy: When the clock source is set to External and no actual external clock signal is being received, the clock source will not switch to Internal automatically but the clock icon will indicate that external clock is lost
Also SDG5000X beta firmware versions are now much progressed from that in units released to the marketplace and we hope for a public release soon.
I have this beta firmware so I can check for this issue you report but only with the lesser SDG1032X but it has the new clock scheme also.

Can you confirm you are using V0.8.2R1 firmware in SDS5000X ?

Here is the link to SDG2000X firmware:
https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/waveform-generators/#sdg2000x-series