EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[ruurdjan]

A shame I don't have any any more but I thing the keyboard runs down to below 1v per cell. It has been a while so i don't remember.

I think someone busted the Apple keyboard on here too, IIRC it did go down to 1V or less.

I though I'd chime in. I've been noticing that once my Apple Keyboard starts complaining about 'low batteries', the actual batteries are not nearly dead. I'm using 2x AA Varta batteries with the Varta Smart Charger (the one in one of Dave's videos), and if I recharge the batteries as soon as OS X tells me they've 'low', it will charge about 425 mAh before they're deemed full by the charger.
These batteries and the charger from:
EEVblog #822.

I realize this is by no means scientific, but it seems Apple's very conservative on the low battery notification.
I'll let them run out completely next time and report back how 'empty' they really where. That'll take a few weeks...

[WN1X]

My Apple keyboard batteries seem to have really long life even after it tells me to replace them. Unlike my Apple mouse.

[Brumby]

Dammit.

The batteries in my wireless mouse died last night - and I just swapped them out without measuring them.

I'll just see if I can find them....

OK, found my old batteries - but since they have had time to rest, they have recovered a bit.  So now they're back in the mouse so I can run them down again.

2 hours in and they're still working.....

[Brumby]

OK - The batteries are dead - again.  They are Dick Smith branded AA alkaline and lasted around 7 hours in a Logitech cordless mouse.

Measured voltage upon removal: 0.935v and 0.912v



So here's an interesting proposition for you....

If my mouse can function happily on, let's say, 1v per cell - what will give me more 'life' out of the battery?  A Batteriser targeting 1.5v or one adjusted to give 1.0v?

[EEVblog]

If my mouse can function happily on, let's say, 1v per cell - what will give me more 'life' out of the battery?  A Batteriser targeting 1.5v or one adjusted to give 1.0v?

Assuming the same efficiency of both 1.5V and 1.0V converters, then the 1.0V converter will give you more life, the ESR sucks right at that tail end, you want the lest current possible.

[Brumby]

The answer is kinda obvious...


SO - who's going to be the first to hack their Batteriser?!!!!
(assuming they actually ship, of course.)

[Howardlong]

My Apple keyboard batteries seem to have really long life even after it tells me to replace them. Unlike my Apple mouse.

I have to say that I gave up with Apple wireless keyboards, mice and trackpads some time ago, short battery life was one reason (that I can't see Batteriser improving more than a couple of percent, the cells were pretty much depleted), pairing another. A case of style over substance. Wired, it's the future!

As a generalisation, non-bluetooth wireless keyboards and mouses just don't seem to suffer either the short battery life or of course the pairing nonsense, and it's a reason I now avoid despite the non-Bluetooth devices requiring a USB dongle.

[timb]

My Apple keyboard batteries seem to have really long life even after it tells me to replace them. Unlike my Apple mouse.

I have to say that I gave up with Apple wireless keyboards, mice and trackpads some time ago, short battery life was one reason (that I can't see Batteriser improving more than a couple of percent, the cells were pretty much depleted), pairing another. A case of style over substance. Wired, it's the future!

As a generalisation, non-bluetooth wireless keyboards and mouses just don't seem to suffer either the short battery life or of course the pairing nonsense, and it's a reason I now avoid despite the non-Bluetooth devices requiring a USB dongle.

A BTLE keyboard would have much, much, much greater battery life.

As for pairing, I do agree. I've always had a hard time getting the thing in pairing mode (I have an original three battery unit, though I hear the later two battery models fix some of the minor issues).

[Galenbo]

...They will likely be making a loss if they ship. But that's not the point for them, they are looking to flip the company for a big profit...

Could be possible, but that's only a conspiracy. Equally ridiculous as the statement you are in the pocket of the battery industry.
There is no data to prove this, keep to the facts, all kind of journalists are following this tread.

[Brumby]

...They will likely be making a loss if they ship. But that's not the point for them, they are looking to flip the company for a big profit...

Could be possible, but that's only a conspiracy. Equally ridiculous as the statement you are in the pocket of the battery industry.
There is no data to prove this, keep to the facts, all kind of journalists are following this tread.

Well, certainly the Batteroo crowd would have to be looking at this whole exercise as a profit creating venture.  The only question is: How?

 - They could be in it as a supplier who makes profit from the sale of a product.  (I hear giggles in the background)
 - They could be looking to sell the technology and/or the company
 - Or they could be looking at some 'creative accounting' methods to turn a profit

Certainly I must agree that this is all speculation at this time, but there are always hints in the finer details if you pay close enough attention.  While these may not be concrete enough to accurately predict the outcome, they should at least point to possibilities - and that we should be prepared for any of those.

[Wytnucls]

...They will likely be making a loss if they ship. But that's not the point for them, they are looking to flip the company for a big profit...

Could be possible, but that's only a conspiracy. Equally ridiculous as the statement you are in the pocket of the battery industry.
There is no data to prove this, keep to the facts, all kind of journalists are following this tread.

That's not a conspiracy, that's what VC companies are there for.

[EEVblog]

Could be possible, but that's only a conspiracy. Equally ridiculous as the statement you are in the pocket of the battery industry.
There is no data to prove this, keep to the facts, all kind of journalists are following this tread.

Why do you think a VC company invested money in Batteriser?
Who do you think now has the controlling stake in the company?
Do you seriously think that a VC company does not have a exit strategy?
(Hint: It's VC strategy 101)

[Fungus]

...They will likely be making a loss if they ship. But that's not the point for them, they are looking to flip the company for a big profit...

Could be possible, but that's only a conspiracy.

Nope. Flipping companies is what suited individuals like the Batteriser Brothers do. It's their raison d'etre.

Equally ridiculous as the statement you are in the pocket of the battery industry.

Fail.

Those two statements aren't even from the same planet. One is everyday business. One is pure fantasy.

Selling $2.50 items by mail, trying to recover $1 million in VC investment and make a profit? THAT would be "ridiculous".

[EEVblog]

Well, certainly the Batteroo crowd would have to be looking at this whole exercise as a profit creating venture.  The only question is: How?
 - They could be in it as a supplier who makes profit from the sale of a product.  (I hear giggles in the background)
 - They could be looking to sell the technology and/or the company
 - Or they could be looking at some 'creative accounting' methods to turn a profit

The Roohparvar's can have the best intentions in the world, to stay in the business and never sell it at any cost etc.
But it's most likely they no longer have the controlling interest in it. They took big money from a VC investment firm:
http://sktainnopartners.com/welcome-to-batteroo/
There is a reason that the VC firm have put their own people on the Batteroo board of directors.

Oh, and BTW,  the VC company describes Bob as a "serial entrepreneur".

The goal of these firms is to make a return on thei investment as quickly as possible, usually by selling the company privately, or floating it and then selling the shares.
There are other ways, like keeping the compny in their portfolio and using it to recapitalise, but I don't believe that's as common.

[jippie]

I'm sure I've seen quite some "speculation" about Chinese New Year, but I don't recall having seen these comments yet.

Eric CHOI
2 days ago

“Thankfully, by next week, we will have a more solid understanding of the timeline and will be in the best position to provide our backers a projected shipping date.”…

There will be a holiday in China the week after next week, actually the factories are all in the hibernation state already becoz most workers are going back home for the holiday and come back to work after the holiday, so there will be further delay until 15 Feb or later, at least… no update could be provided by the factory.

Eric CHOI
2 days ago
by the way, we will all support the project and trust you guys had already tried the best to let us have the Batteriser as soon as possible, Thank you very much!!

Bob Roohparvar
Campaigner 1 day ago
Yes, you are right that the Chinese New Year will present challenges to shipping in February.

[Nerull]

And a very very bad idea.
The result is smoke alarms not only failing to work, but failing to warn people of low battery so they can change it. People will die as a result if a 9V Batteriser got popular enough, it's basics statistics.

Very good point but a simple statement in the manual not to use it in safety critical devices should suffice.
The same rules as other strange rules in manuals, like "do not use the plastick bag of this product with children they may suffocate" or "don't put any living beings in this microwave device" etc.

They're promoting Batteriser for use in medical equipment and emergency devices. You think they'll stop at smoke detectors?

[chris_leyson]

I couldn't wait, so I tried two Alkaline batteries, Energizer Max + Power Seal, first battery has an 11 Ohm load and the second has an LTC3539 boost converter, output set to 1.5V, driving an 11 Ohm load.

From an energy supplied point of view, consider the area under the green curve, after 20.2 hours the battery voltage has dropped to 1.0V, the power available to the load is only 45% of what it was when the battery voltage was, say, 1.5V (1.0*1.0/1.5*1.5) = 45%.
The area under the green curve, up to 20.2hr, is 9.76 kJ. If that energy were used to supply a 100% efficienct boost converter with its output set to 1.5V, then for an 11 ohm resistive load, P = 1.5²/11 = 204.5mW, time = Energy/Power = 9.76E3/.2045 s, or 9.76E3/0.2045/3600 hours or 13.25 hours. So maybe I could squeeze another 3 hours out of the battery if the converter were 100% efficient. If my battery powered product works down to 1V i.e. for 20.2 hours then the best I could get is 13.25/20.2 or 66% battery life at full power.

[chris_leyson]

Damn it, forgot to attach graph

[chris_leyson]

66% battery life at full power equates to 30% to 40% more batteries in land fill or whatever.

[Cyberdragon]

And a very very bad idea.
The result is smoke alarms not only failing to work, but failing to warn people of low battery so they can change it. People will die as a result if a 9V Batteriser got popular enough, it's basics statistics.

Very good point but a simple statement in the manual not to use it in safety critical devices should suffice.
The same rules as other strange rules in manuals, like "do not use the plastick bag of this product with children they may suffocate" or "don't put any living beings in this microwave device" etc.

They're promoting Batteriser for use in medical equipment and emergency devices. You think they'll stop at smoke detectors?

Really Batteriser? I bet there are advanced emergency devices out there that are smart enough (and smarter than bob) to compute that battery voltage should drop over time, realize it's not because some idjit installed a batteriser, then brick itself with an error code of "battery monitor failure".
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_monitor_a_battery

P.S...since people seem to be building batterisers here...car batterizer anyone?

[SL4P]

P.S...since people seem to be building batterisers here...car batterizer anyone?

Don't let Boob see this!
He'll be touting Motorisers that offer 800% better fuel economy!

[meeder]

P.S...since people seem to be building batterisers here...car batterizer anyone?

Don't let Boob see this!
He'll be touting Motorisers that offer 800% better fuel economy!

Or a batteriser for your Tesla, 800% range ;-)

[chris_leyson]

Last week while I was busy killing off a few Energizer alkaline batteries with and without a batteriser clone, I found this under my desk whilst rummaging for a Coiltronics six winding transformer...

A dead bat:-

[meeder]

Last week while I was busy killing off a few Energizer alkaline batteries with and without a batteriser clone, I found this under my desk whilst rummaging for a Coiltronics six winding transformer...

A dead bat:-

If only it has a batteriser installed, 800% longer life...

[Howardlong]

If it's lasts 800% longer, does that mean it has nine lives? A Catteriser?