EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[GNU_Ninja]

"15 miles from France" So they're from Belgium, Holland, Germany, Luxemburg or Spain???

Or does he mean some small US town called France?

McBryce.

Treading water off the coast of Dover 

[LabSpokane]

There's nothing suspicious about the dislikes he's received. They're just genuine dislikes to his content. Heck, I disliked it myself. 

Yup, he of course didn't show the overlay of the views and dislikes.
His video got featured on the Batteriser page, so people saw it and they disliked it. Simple.

If that's the sort of person the batteroo team want on their side, they're welcome to him!

Probably best to let Batteriser simply self implode at this point.

BTW, I lost count of the number of people who came up to me at Electronex over the last two days and mentioned Batteriser. Just face palm after face palm.
The best comedy writers on the planet couldn't have scripted it better.

It's over. Sanity and good engineering won. Batteroo is so over-committed  and under-funded at this point it's beyond laughable. They have at least three more sets of injection molds to pay for and likely four sets of progressive dies for the sheet metal. The C and D batteries will the coup de grace if they actually try to fulfill those orders. They are literally spending tens of thousands of dollars to make a few hundred.

The sheet metal dies will be a total bastard with their current design. They need DFM help. Badly.

The plastics will be fairly expensive. Making that high zoot clear case instead of just using plastic clamshell packaging was just nuts. The C and D version sell for the same price, yet have vastly lower volume, and higher tooling and part costs. Batteroo has to be looking for a way to not build those. I think that's the purpose of the survey. The real survey should have been: "can we give you a refund and walk away?"

[jancumps]

"15 miles from France" So they're from Belgium, Holland, Germany, Luxemburg or Spain???

Or does he mean some small US town called France?

McBryce.

Andorra, Monaco?

[McBryce]

"15 miles from France" So they're from Belgium, Holland, Germany, Luxemburg or Spain???

Or does he mean some small US town called France?

McBryce.

Andorra, Monaco?

I knew I'd forget a few

McBryce.

[Godzil]

I've genuinely didn't understood that part of his reply, but it's the most uninteresting part of it anyway

[jancumps]

"15 miles from France" So they're from Belgium, Holland, Germany, Luxemburg or Spain???

Or does he mean some small US town called France?

McBryce.

Andorra, Monaco?

I knew I'd forget a few

McBryce.

Swiss, Italy 

[5ky]

Another "quality post" from a Batteriser supporter

which he removed and re-uploaded...

thanks for making me watch that.  I think I lost some brain cells watching that garbage

if you think that's bad, watch this trainwreck:

[timofonic]

Lakshmi Narasimha:
He is no EE. He is a "software engineer".
https://www.linkedin.com/in/lakshminarasimhanav

From his Linkedin profile, He works at a company called "Startup Inc"

One is a physicist and astronomer teacher that worked as Micron.

The other is a "software engineer".

Where they did study to get their degrees?

There's nothing suspicious about the dislikes he's received. They're just genuine dislikes to his content. Heck, I disliked it myself. 

Yup, he of course didn't show the overlay of the views and dislikes.
His video got featured on the Batteriser page, so people saw it and they disliked it. Simple.

If that's the sort of person the batteroo team want on their side, they're welcome to him!

Probably best to let Batteriser simply self implode at this point.

BTW, I lost count of the number of people who came up to me at Electronex over the last two days and mentioned Batteriser. Just face palm after face palm.
The best comedy writers on the planet couldn't have scripted it better.

This would be funnier than the Micro Men TV documentary drama  movie. What about prepare a script movie draft and find some starting talents to do it after some months? This could be the geekier movie ever made, even better if other EEvBlog friendly people collaborate. It would be amazing if being geek and hilarious at same time.


Suggested titles
- "Clamping Monkey Scammers"
- "Magical Battery Optimizer"
- "Battery Fools and Scammers"
- "Ohm's Law Violation"
- "Battery Rise Men"
- "The Incredible Scamming of Batteriser"

Or a mini series about different stuff:

- Techie criminals
- Snake Oil in Tech
- Tech Scammers


You could initiate a new section or series
EEvFiction by "That Crazy Aussie Bloke" Films.

[Kire Pûdsje]

"15 miles from France" So they're from Belgium, Holland, Germany, Luxemburg or Spain???

Or does he mean some small US town called France?

McBryce.

Andorra, Monaco?

I knew I'd forget a few

McBryce.

Swiss, Italy 

Why stop, since 'Holland' is mentioned (bordering France in Sint Maarten/Saint Martin), a complete (I hope) list would be: Spain, Andorra, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Monaco, Brazil, Suriname, The Netherlands.
BTW: Holland != The Netherlands, just like England != UK

[McBryce]

I did say I missed a few 

McBryce.

[Fungus]

Why stop, since 'Holland' is mentioned (bordering France in Sint Maarten/Saint Martin)

If we're going to include French overseas territories then the list will get a lot longer than that.

(But let's not...eh?)

[andrew.perrong]

I will just leave this here.
I got a reply from UL.

"Hello

Thank you for taking the time to contact UL to report your concern. 

UL cannot provide you with any information regarding UL projects as it is not public information. 

We are working with the company to clarify the information posted on their website.


Best regards,

MXXX. LXXXXXXXX XXXXXXX
Market Surveillance Analyst
________________________
UL LLC
333 Pfingsten Road
Northbrook, IL  60062
Email: Market.Surveillance@ul.com
W: ul.com"

[Kean]

I have done some digging (attached pdf) and have a crazy theory that the Batteriser Fan Page YouTube channel is run by a Roohparvar (probably Ali). 

Great detective work.  I also have my suspicions this might be the case.

[firewalker]

I will just leave this here.
I got a reply from UL.

"Hello

Thank you for taking the time to contact UL to report your concern. 

UL cannot provide you with any information regarding UL projects as it is not public information. 

We are working with the company to clarify the information posted on their website.


Best regards,

MXXX. LXXXXXXXX XXXXXXX
Market Surveillance Analyst
________________________
UL LLC
333 Pfingsten Road
Northbrook, IL  60062
Email: Market.Surveillance@ul.com
W: ul.com"

What your senses say about their response? Anyone with experience dealing with UL?

Alexander.

[firewalker]

Hello EEVblog,

Sorry this is slightly off topic.

I have done some digging (attached pdf) and have a crazy theory that the Batteriser Fan Page YouTube channel is run by a Roohparvar (probably Ali). 

Thoughts?

P.S.
Sorry about the jpeg quality

Any thoughts? Ahem.... I think you nailed it m8!

Alexander.

[LabSpokane]

Isn`t this a case for the FBI? It should be clearly fradulent.

No. This isn't close to FBI material.  If they go public with an IPO, then the SEC could go after them. Right now, at worst, the FTC or CA state attorney general can make funny faces at them. That's about it.

This will go away on its own. Actually attempting to manufacture at this scale with so little money is punishment enough.

Patience.

[edy]

Isn`t this a case for the FBI? It should be clearly fradulent.

This will go away on its own. Actually attempting to manufacture at this scale with so little money is punishment enough.
Patience.

It could be the reason they even did the IndieGogo campaign was because of pressure from their VC backers (SK Telecom) to establish a client base or market as a contingency of them getting their million dollar funding. This way, if an IndieGogo campaign goes sour, SK Telecom backs out.

Yes, having just over $300k to manufacture this number and variety of devices is no money at all, even in China. The die-and-tooling needed to create punches, formers and folders for the sleeves alone, not to mention the PCB fabrication line and assembly, will cost much more. Once again, if they keep to their November release (if at all) I will be a Probes The Monkey's uncle. 

[Fungus]

Isn`t this a case for the FBI? It should be clearly fradulent.

No. This isn't close to FBI material.

It might be FTC material though.

But anyway, the goggle-eyed people who signed up on IGG will all get what they deserve, if the claims made here for manufacturing costs are true then the Batteriser Brothers will get what they deserve too.

Let's hope the people who invested via. SK Telecom aren't stung too badly - just enough to make them wary of backing snake oil salesmen in the future.

[LabSpokane]

Isn`t this a case for the FBI? It should be clearly fradulent.

No. This isn't close to FBI material.

It might be FTC material though.

But anyway, the goggle-eyed people who signed up on IGG will all get what they deserve, if the claims made here for manufacturing costs are true then the Batteriser Brothers will get what they deserve too.

Let's hope the people who invested via. SK Telecom aren't stung too badly - just enough to make them wary of backing snake oil salesmen in the future.

Already noted the FTC. 

I don't know SK Telecom personally, but I'm not sure that there's anyone involved that I'd put a white hat on right now.  This fiasco is very likely a combination of unrealistic promises from Batteroo coupled with unrealistic expectations from SK.  The thought that anyone was going to go from zero to full tilt boogie mass-market retail distribution in under six months and less than $1M USD with FOUR unique products ... well ... not a chance.  Not even close. 

In SK's defense, I'll say that they were probably heavily relying upon Bob Roohparvar's experience from Flextronics to guide them.  Instead we have a project that is hard to believe that anyone from Flex would believe worked from a time/resources standpoint.

There might have been a time when Batteroo could have gotten a bank loan or revolving line of credit based on the receivables from the retail orders, but those obviously evaporated since they extended the IGG campaign in the hopes that they would get enough money to go to production. 

[ccs46]

if you think that's bad, watch this trainwreck:

He has a sort of Southern US kind of accent, I would say Georgia or Alabama, maybe Louisiana.

[samgab]

Well, someone at Garmin has just replied to my query, and they have completely avoided answering anything about the Alkaline battery life issue.

Again, here is my question:

"The company startup "Batteroo" with the pending product "Batteriser" have published a video in which they claim to test a Garmin Approach G3 using new Alkaline batteries, and they state that it only lasts 1 hour and 52 minutes before it dies. This claim has been widely spread on youtube, their own website, and other parts of the internet.

Can Garmin confirm or refute whether the Approach G3 will only last for under 2 hours on new Alkaline Duracell batteries, and then the batteries would need to be changed?"

[/i]

And here is their answer:

"Thank you for contacting Garmin International. I would be happy to assist you today. NiMH or Lithium batteries are recommended for the Approach G3, and the expected battery life is up to 15 hours using either of these batteries.

When determining which batteries will suit your application best it is important to note, if Lithium batteries are chosen, that two distinct types exist.

Lithium Batteries
Lithium Ion Batteries
The difference in these two types of batteries resides in the voltage each produces. Please check to ensure that the voltage listed on the battery does not exceed the voltage requirement of your GPS listed in the manual.

The difference in voltage between the two batteries is as follows:

Lithium batteries have a voltage of 1.75V and are not rechargeable
Lithium Ion batteries have a voltage of 4.2V and are rechargeable
Often Lithium batteries are the preferred choice for those choosing to use such a battery. In many cases, a Lithium battery will need to be used after its voltage has dropped below the recommended voltage listed in the device manual. It is not recommended that Lithium Ion batteries be used. In many cases these batteries exceed the limits of Garmin GPS devices and can cause irreversible damage."

[/i]

I'm fairly sure I just got one of their standard form replies. I don't think she even read my email, just saw "G3... battery life... hmm, okay, send form letter on using NiMH or Lithium batteries."

I replied, pushing for an actual considered response:

"Thank you for your reply, I appreciate your time.
However, I find that my question hasn't been answered. I understand that the recommended cells are Lithium metal or NiMH and I understand the difference between Lithium metal primary cells and Lithium ion cells, however; the Approach G3 has an Alkaline setting, so it was clearly also designed with the ability to be run on those. Sometimes, for different reasons, the only batteries available are Alkalines, such as Duracell Power Plus, and my question was: How much battery life could reasonably be expected using Alkaline cells without the use of some device to boost the voltage? Is it less than 2 hours as claimed by the Batteriser people in their media campaign? Or about half a round of golf per set of Alkaline batteries?"

[edy]

Here is the Garmin Approach G3 manual:

http://static.garmincdn.com/pumac/ApproachG3_OwnersManual.pdf

Page 1 - The Approach operates on two AA batteries (not included). Use alkaline, NiMH or lithium batteries.
Page 7 - Battery Type - select Akaline, Lithium and rechargeable NiMH.
Page 10 - Power source: Two AA batteries (Alkaline, NiMH or lithium)

So they now DON'T recommend alkaline or do they just not want to say anything? 

EDIT: spelling errors.

[gore]

Sounds like a regular, robotic PR type response taken right off of a template. I don't think the person answering has any idea or care for the issue being discussed.

[samgab]

Well, someone at Garmin has just replied to my query, and they have completely avoided answering anything about the Alkaline battery life issue.

Again, here is my question:

"The company startup "Batteroo" with the pending product "Batteriser" have published a video in which they claim to test a Garmin Approach G3 using new Alkaline batteries, and they state that it only lasts 1 hour and 52 minutes before it dies. This claim has been widely spread on youtube, their own website, and other parts of the internet.

Can Garmin confirm or refute whether the Approach G3 will only last for under 2 hours on new Alkaline Duracell batteries, and then the batteries would need to be changed?"

[/i]

And here is their answer:

"Thank you for contacting Garmin International. I would be happy to assist you today. NiMH or Lithium batteries are recommended for the Approach G3, and the expected battery life is up to 15 hours using either of these batteries.

When determining which batteries will suit your application best it is important to note, if Lithium batteries are chosen, that two distinct types exist.

Lithium Batteries
Lithium Ion Batteries
The difference in these two types of batteries resides in the voltage each produces. Please check to ensure that the voltage listed on the battery does not exceed the voltage requirement of your GPS listed in the manual.

The difference in voltage between the two batteries is as follows:

Lithium batteries have a voltage of 1.75V and are not rechargeable
Lithium Ion batteries have a voltage of 4.2V and are rechargeable
Often Lithium batteries are the preferred choice for those choosing to use such a battery. In many cases, a Lithium battery will need to be used after its voltage has dropped below the recommended voltage listed in the device manual. It is not recommended that Lithium Ion batteries be used. In many cases these batteries exceed the limits of Garmin GPS devices and can cause irreversible damage."

[/i]

I'm fairly sure I just got one of their standard form replies. I don't think she even read my email, just saw "G3... battery life... hmm, okay, send form letter on using NiMH or Lithium batteries."

I replied, pushing for an actual considered response:

"Thank you for your reply, I appreciate your time.
However, I find that my question hasn't been answered. I understand that the recommended cells are Lithium metal or NiMH and I understand the difference between Lithium metal primary cells and Lithium ion cells, however; the Approach G3 has an Alkaline setting, so it was clearly also designed with the ability to be run on those. Sometimes, for different reasons, the only batteries available are Alkalines, such as Duracell Power Plus, and my question was: How much battery life could reasonably be expected using Alkaline cells without the use of some device to boost the voltage? Is it less than 2 hours as claimed by the Batteriser people in their media campaign? Or about half a round of golf per set of Alkaline batteries?"

Wow! I just got a lightning fast response to my reply to their reply from an actual human! Maybe replies to standard replies get escalated to second tier support right away, I don't know. Anyway, this response is much better:

"Thank you for contacting Garmin International. I can help you here.

Quick question, are you planning on tapping on the screen of the device every 15 seconds like they do in the sample video?

If your answer is "yes" then I can say it may be likely that you can drain the batteries very quickly.

Under normal use however, the device will last 3 or possibly 4 rounds of golf before they are too drained. So 12 - 16 hours.

I've had a set of energizers in my G5 for months and it still has enough power for me to troubleshoot situations.

Finally, I don't think I have ever heard of Batteriser or Batteroo so I'm not sure I would find any claim from them towards another companies product to be of any value.



Let us know if you have any other questions. "

So I replied to him:

"Awesome! Thanks Sean, nice to get a considered response from a human. That's what I was looking for.

Pass my email to your boss as a good work story if you like. "

[warp_foo]

if you think that's bad, watch this trainwreck:

He has a sort of Southern US kind of accent, I would say Georgia or Alabama, maybe Louisiana.

No, definitely not a southern accent. I place that accent somewhere in the NE quadrant on the US.