Author Topic: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)  (Read 3083082 times)

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Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3075 on: October 23, 2015, 08:43:50 am »
Whoa!  Back up the truck, Brothers Roohparvar.
This means you have to re-submit for FCC verification, UL, CE, CSA, the whole thing. 
Yup.
Maybe someone should point that out to them on the Indiegogo comments, just in case they aren't aware.
I'd bother if not for the fact that two ex-Flextronics engineers and one ex-Micron engineer ought to know the rules by now and can surely afford to do the job properly.   ::)

Sure, *we* know that, _they_ know that, but their IndieGoGo backers don't.

Plus: The reply might be funny.  :popcorn:
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 09:36:58 am by Fungus »
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3076 on: October 23, 2015, 09:35:08 am »
Physical size is also a problem. There isn't much real estate on top of a AAA battery.

That's the other thing, no mention or photos of the other sizes, just the AA's.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3077 on: October 23, 2015, 09:41:08 am »
Technically speaking: They still have about five weeks before "November" runs out.

It *might* be possible.

They certainly managed to get FCC approval in three or four days the first time somebody mentioned it.

 

Offline Wytnucls

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3078 on: October 23, 2015, 09:54:57 am »
It is the first time they admit that not everything is rosy-gold with the batteriser. It could be the beginning of the slippery slope. Delivery deadline seems impossible to achieve (15th November).
Can they afford to provide any kind of warranty for their flimsy product?
If the first release is a dud, they will have to run for the hills. The pressure is on.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 10:34:40 am by Wytnucls »
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3079 on: October 23, 2015, 10:01:57 am »
Delivery deadline seems impossible to achieve (15th November).
Did they say "15th"? I only saw "November".
 

Offline Wytnucls

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3080 on: October 23, 2015, 10:03:19 am »
I'll double-check, but that's what I remember.
 

Offline crispy_tofu

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3081 on: October 23, 2015, 10:29:11 am »
Looking on Google, there aren't any references to November 15 and Batteriser.  :-//

EDIT: On the Indiegogo page, it says November 15. Very vague... (considering that 15 is probably the year)
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 10:37:01 am by crispy_tofu »
 

Offline Wytnucls

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3082 on: October 23, 2015, 10:34:06 am »
The official release date is November 2015 on IGG. What I remember may have been come from some back and forth messages on one of their different sites. Couldn't be bothered going through all that again to find it.
End of November is still acceptable, so let's stick to that.
 

Offline AmmoJammo

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3083 on: October 23, 2015, 11:01:51 am »
How are those "sneak peak" photos any different to anything they've already shown?

Why are they showing four units, and not the 100,000 or something they're meant to be making? Why are there no actual production pictures of anything?

I like how they're now saying they're thin enough to fit in MOST battery compartments, where was this statement before they took peoples money?
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3084 on: October 23, 2015, 11:34:14 am »
They certainly managed to get FCC approval in three or four days the first time somebody mentioned it.
Well, at least what they mean was FCC approval. The 1k resistor load for testing was a bad joke. When it is used in a device which draws 1.5 A and which is sensitive to EMC, they might get problems.
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Offline Godzil

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3085 on: October 23, 2015, 11:52:45 am »
Quote
...The next step is to receive the final, next generation optimized IC (integrated circuit) from manufacturing and start assembling. ...This new IC does

What is the minimum and average time you guys expierienced between:

-have a schematic for the IC
and
-having the IC manufactured
and
-having the pcb containing the IC approved CE/ EMC/UL/...

It seems that the first two are already done, even if the manufacturing isn't on full production now, but in general I would says months for all of this. Designing even simple things takes a lot of time so making your own asic/chip/whatever like they say to do (did they just select another on the shelf DC2DC chip in fact?) take even more time especially because it NEVER work on the first time, and they don't says that their chip has been tested. Just "receiving the final" IC so that an engineering sample, they would need much more round of test before the chip is "final" (and a chip is never final anyway, look at all the errata sheet on nearly all components)
When you make hardware without taking into account the needs of the eventual software developers, you end up with bloated hardware full of pointless excess. From the outset one must consider design from both a hardware and software perspective.
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Offline firewalker

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3086 on: October 23, 2015, 12:45:20 pm »
The photos is just blanks, right? No actual pcb attached.

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Offline Godzil

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3087 on: October 23, 2015, 01:03:20 pm »
The three pictures on the update looks like 3D rendering :/
When you make hardware without taking into account the needs of the eventual software developers, you end up with bloated hardware full of pointless excess. From the outset one must consider design from both a hardware and software perspective.
-- Yokoi Gunpei
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3088 on: October 23, 2015, 01:35:34 pm »
Why are they showing four units, and not the 100,000 or something they're meant to be making? Why are there no actual production pictures of anything?

Yep. If it was me I'd be posting pics of the crates full of shiny-new batterisers, not the same old rendered image they've been posting for months.
.
 

Offline McBryce

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3089 on: October 23, 2015, 01:41:56 pm »
Why are they showing four units, and not the 100,000 or something they're meant to be making? Why are there no actual production pictures of anything?

Yep. If it was me I'd be posting pics of the crates full of shiny-new batterisers, not the same old rendered image they've been posting for months.
.

If it was me, I'd post pictures of everything I had!... Oh wait, that's what they did :)

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Offline drussell

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3090 on: October 23, 2015, 03:35:13 pm »
So after what, 4 years of development?, only at the 11th hour are they spinning a new chip that is suitable for high drain devices?  :-//
What was all their claims about 1.5A output capability then if they had never really tested it properly?
The odds of this thing being decently efficient over the whole performance envelope in the size available has to be very low.
What are the odds of something going wrong with the new IC?
How can they test and qualify a new IC, presumably make PCB changes as well?, ramp up production, and get these things shipped in a month?
...
So why not make it efficient at 1.5A in the first place?
Seems like a last minute snafu.

I don't think that they've ever really tested much of anything, otherwise they would probably have been able to show some kind of specifications rather than the vague moving targets we've seen.  I believe they're still trying to engineer something that will actually work well enough to fool at least some people but that the few bits of description and things like 1.5A current capability are more of a design goal than any sort of measurement or specification of the finished product.

And can you just make it magically better without compromising efficiency at the lower end?
This is the sort of basic stuff you are supposed figure out in the initial prototype stage before you go public with the song and dance routine.

I'm just speculating now but one theory I have is that their real product is not the batteriser but the IC.

Physical size is also a problem. There isn't much real estate on top of a AAA battery. Existing ICs and inductors capable of generating 1.5A at 1.5MHz with 80-90% efficiency throughout the range are much larger and wouldn't fit. Switching to ICs running at 3MHz may help some.

Designing even simple things takes a lot of time so making your own asic/chip/whatever like they say to do (did they just select another on the shelf DC2DC chip in fact?) take even more time especially because it NEVER work on the first time, and they don't says that their chip has been tested. Just "receiving the final" IC so that an engineering sample, they would need much more round of test before the chip is "final" (and a chip is never final anyway, look at all the errata sheet on nearly all components)

My assumption has always been that they aren't really designing their own IC from scratch but rather just a customized version of an existing off-the-shelf DC-DC converter chip.  My guess would be a standard part that has been modified to run at a slightly higher frequency (could be as simple as a resistor or cap change on the die) and perhaps includes a beefier output MOSFET or whatever.  Oh, and of course custom part number silkscreened on top.  (Perhaps ONLY that!)  :)

I seriously doubt they have actually designed a breakthrough, fundamentally different DC-DC converter topology or novel circuit design of any kind.  I fully expect the first person that shaves open one of their chips will find it to be identical to or (perhaps a mildly tweaked version of a commercially available chip from one of the major manufacturers.

:popcorn:
 

Offline LabSpokane

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3091 on: October 23, 2015, 03:51:36 pm »
They certainly managed to get FCC approval in three or four days the first time somebody mentioned it.
Well, at least what they mean was FCC approval. The 1k resistor load for testing was a bad joke. When it is used in a device which draws 1.5 A and which is sensitive to EMC, they might get problems.

For what it's worth, based on my reading of the FCC regs, this device falls under validation only, which means it must be tested (and pass), but does not need FCC approval per se. The testing documentation must be kept on file and must be available upon immediate request from the FCC.

If they retest at 1.5mA and claim a 1.5A device rating, I'm fairly certain someone will file a complaint with the FCC, which will initiate a records request, and quickly reveal how Batteroo is gaming the validation process. 

The FCC will not be amused.
 

Offline Godzil

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3092 on: October 23, 2015, 03:56:58 pm »
I was watching randomly dave's videos I haven't watch yet and went on the number 320, a mailbag.

And what is the first thing dave found in the first parcel?

"AAsaver" to use "dead" AA battery to use old "dead" battery for powering a breadboard or a simple flash light...
Don't know why but it remind me about something we discuss in a more recent topic..... :D


When you make hardware without taking into account the needs of the eventual software developers, you end up with bloated hardware full of pointless excess. From the outset one must consider design from both a hardware and software perspective.
-- Yokoi Gunpei
 

Offline Galenbo

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3093 on: October 24, 2015, 02:31:30 pm »
Quote
...The next step is to receive the final, next generation optimized IC (integrated circuit) from manufacturing and start assembling. ...This new IC does

What is the minimum and average time you guys expierienced between:

-have a schematic for the IC
and
-having the IC manufactured
and
-having the pcb containing the IC approved CE/ EMC/UL/...

It seems that the first two are already done, even if the manufacturing isn't on full production now, but in general I would says months for all of this. Designing even simple things takes a lot of time so making your own asic/chip/whatever like they say to do ...
With months, how many months do you mean between having the definitive chip schematic, and having the PCB with the chip approved for CE/EMC/UL?
I'm not into chip design, no idea how many time that takes.
If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a nonworking cat.
 

Offline Smokey

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3094 on: October 25, 2015, 02:55:37 am »
Quote
...The next step is to receive the final, next generation optimized IC (integrated circuit) from manufacturing and start assembling. ...This new IC does

What is the minimum and average time you guys expierienced between:

-have a schematic for the IC
and
-having the IC manufactured
and
-having the pcb containing the IC approved CE/ EMC/UL/...

It seems that the first two are already done, even if the manufacturing isn't on full production now, but in general I would says months for all of this. Designing even simple things takes a lot of time so making your own asic/chip/whatever like they say to do ...
With months, how many months do you mean between having the definitive chip schematic, and having the PCB with the chip approved for CE/EMC/UL?
I'm not into chip design, no idea how many time that takes.

Depends on how much money you are willing to spend...
 

Offline crispy_tofu

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3095 on: October 25, 2015, 03:00:32 am »
Depends on how much money you are willing to spend...

Reminds me of this:
 

Offline Godzil

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EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3096 on: October 25, 2015, 08:59:43 am »
Depends on how much money you are willing to spend...
Money is not something magic which will shorten time.
It's like the "man month" metric. A 10 man month project will not make it done in 1 day by putting 300 (10*30) persons on it.

And the time for the three steps I would says 3 months is the bare minimum
« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 09:01:43 am by Godzil »
When you make hardware without taking into account the needs of the eventual software developers, you end up with bloated hardware full of pointless excess. From the outset one must consider design from both a hardware and software perspective.
-- Yokoi Gunpei
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3097 on: October 25, 2015, 09:15:42 am »
Depends on how much money you are willing to spend...
Money is not something magic which will shorten time.

I'm sure there's chip fabs out there that will let you jump the queue for the right price...
 

Offline Godzil

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3098 on: October 25, 2015, 09:50:26 am »
Cheap chip fab maybe, but serious one I doubt.

And making the sample quicker does not change the design time nor debug time. That's what takes a lot of time
When you make hardware without taking into account the needs of the eventual software developers, you end up with bloated hardware full of pointless excess. From the outset one must consider design from both a hardware and software perspective.
-- Yokoi Gunpei
 

Online Halcyon

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #3099 on: October 25, 2015, 10:03:59 am »
Where's my hoverboard Batteriser?

(I really do mean hoverboard)
 


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