Author Topic: Dilbert loses newspapers, publishers, distributor, and possibly its website  (Read 80803 times)

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Offline Kim Christensen

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Or you could go read about the survey of 1576 scientists Nature did in May 2016.  The initial numbers often cited from that are fractions of scientists having had issues with reproducibility, not fractions of articles, so don't just skim it.  Over half of those reported they believed there was a "reproducibility crisis" going on even then.

Not a single mention of "peer review" in that article.
Nice little quote from your article:
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The survey — which was e-mailed to Nature readers and advertised on affiliated websites and social-media outlets as being 'about reproducibility


Quote
For an example of 60% of articles failing reproducibility test, look at psychology (Nature, 2015, cited 56 times).  (And that's not all crappy papers, only the ones whose results cannot be reproduced.)
In preclinical cancer research, 89% of articles failed reproducibility testing, ie. their results could not be reproduced.  Also note that this Nature article has been cited 1851 times, so it is definitely main-stream science, not some lone goofball spouting nonsense.

Even if I accept these findings as 100% accurate, psychology (A very weak science) and "preclinical cancer research" don't make up anything near "one quarter to three quarters of accepted peer-reviewed publications"
 
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Even if I accept these findings as 100% accurate
I'm sure you wouldn't accept anything that is contrary to your current beliefs anyway.

Besides, I'm not here to convince you.  I'm just showing my current understanding, and trying to show what it is based on, through examples and references.
Neither of which you have provided for any of your own assertions.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2023, 06:42:23 pm by Nominal Animal »
 
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Offline james_s

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I was really shocked to learn the UK had arrested several times more people for speech violations than Russia, that's truly terrifying that a modern, civilized nation would be doing that. The law is so broad and vague that any one of us could be charged.

Your citations for this blatantly ridiculous claim?

It was posted earlier in this thread, I have not read the entire law and I'm not very familiar with UK law in general but the part that was quoted by tszaboo said
“using public electronic communications network in order to cause annoyance, inconvenience or needless anxiety” which could apply to any one of us, "cause annoyance" is extremely broad and vague.

tom66 responded saying "It's a terrible law, because it's so easy to misinterpret.  The basis for the law was one to prevent cyber-bullying and internet harrassment, and it was warned at the time that it was a dangerous precedent to set, but it still happened, because you've "got to protect those innocent children".  See also:  Internet safety bill in the UK."

And langwadt posted this video link which is what I was referring to https://www.youtube.com/shorts/GTn1He86oJk

So perhaps you could clarify which part(s) of all this are "blatantly ridiculous".
 

Offline coppice

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I was really shocked to learn the UK had arrested several times more people for speech violations than Russia, that's truly terrifying that a modern, civilized nation would be doing that. The law is so broad and vague that any one of us could be charged.

Your citations for this blatantly ridiculous claim?

It was posted earlier in this thread, I have not read the entire law and I'm not very familiar with UK law in general but the part that was quoted by tszaboo said
“using public electronic communications network in order to cause annoyance, inconvenience or needless anxiety” which could apply to any one of us, "cause annoyance" is extremely broad and vague.

tom66 responded saying "It's a terrible law, because it's so easy to misinterpret.  The basis for the law was one to prevent cyber-bullying and internet harrassment, and it was warned at the time that it was a dangerous precedent to set, but it still happened, because you've "got to protect those innocent children".  See also:  Internet safety bill in the UK."

And langwadt posted this video link which is what I was referring to https://www.youtube.com/shorts/GTn1He86oJk

So perhaps you could clarify which part(s) of all this are "blatantly ridiculous".
There's nothing obscure or secret about that information. Its well known in the UK. You don't even need to break a law to get on the kind of police register that will exclude you from various jobs. There are "non crime hate incident" reports which get you onto those registers, just because someone didn't like what you said.

 

Offline james_s

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That is Trump's MO, presumably used to prevent any negative comeback. "Some smart people have said he fiddles with kids. Maybe he does - I don't know." Of course, he says that kind of thing not because anyone has actually said what he purports but to plant the idea, and then reiterates that he's not saying that "but maybe there's something in it".

Specifically to the bleach thing, there is surely a time and place to ask things and suggest things, and when speaking as The Official Word in front of the entire world is surely not it. He did it then to a) bring his idea forward where it couldn't be dismissed, and b) make sure everyone knew he owned it. But, again,  he gave himself an out, just in case.

Trump is actually a great example of how 'just asking' is really not that at all.

Trump is a blathering idiot, that much has been obvious for as long as he has been involved in politics. I really hate being forced to defend the guy because I absolutely cannot stand him and cringe whenever he flaps his gums, but he did not suggest anyone inject themselves with bleach. He was pondering whether it is possible to inject something that would disinfect a person and kill the virus, it's an idiotic thing to ponder if one knows anything about medicine but he's an idiot and doesn't know anything about medicine. If somebody is stupid enough to take that idle speculation as an instruction to actually inject themselves with disinfectant then they win the Darwin award.

I don't really see it much differently than someone with a poor understanding of engineering and physics pondering if we can "just do xyz" to fix a free energy machine so that it achieves over unity. People speculate about things they don't understand all the time.
 
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Offline Kim Christensen

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Neither of which you have provided for any of your own assertions.

Quote one of those assertions that you want me to verify.

Even if I accept these findings as 100% accurate
I'm sure you wouldn't accept anything that is contrary to your current beliefs anyway. assertions.

Nice Ad Hominem attack with zero evidence.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2023, 06:45:48 pm by Kim Christensen »
 
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Neither of which you have provided for any of your own assertions.
Quote one of those assertions that you want me to verify.
Nope.  I'm not here to be your research assistant.

If you wanted to have even a shred of credibility, you would have shown at least one sub-field of science with similar significance or volume as psychology or pre-clinical cancer research with reproducibility above 90% (i.e., in less than 10% of articles, findings are found to be unreproducable) in a peer-reviewed article in a journal with the kind of reputation Nature has.  You haven't.  (There aren't any.  They don't call it a "reproducibility crisis" just because it sounds catchy.  There are smaller subfields like algorithms in ACM, which don't have reproducibility issues; but then again, they describe discovered methods and algorithms, and do not rely on data at all.)

Thus, the belief you asserted is completely unfounded.  Not only that, but you used word games to entice me to spend time and effort to prove mine, even though your counterargument was simply "I don't believe you", without a shred of support for it.

Using your own definitions, you're delegitimizing me for absolutely no reason except your own emotions, lowering yourself to the same level as Trump.  Using your own criteria, you should be therefore cancelled, and banned from here.  I disagree.

By my definitions, you're asking for proof without reciprocality, which means I must question the reasoning behind your questions, i.e. push back, just like I described I wished reporters did when encountering political blathering.  I definitely do not want you to be banned, and none of this will affect my attitude towards you in other threads.  (If there is something I can help you with, I will.)
« Last Edit: March 12, 2023, 06:59:47 pm by Nominal Animal »
 
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Offline Kim Christensen

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Neither of which you have provided for any of your own assertions.
Quote one of those assertions that you want me to verify.
Nope.  I'm not here to be your research assistant.

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. (That would be you)
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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The burden of proof is on the person making the claim.
Prove it, and I'll reconsider.
 

Offline Tomorokoshi

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The burden of proof is on the person making the claim.
Prove it, and I'll reconsider.

Is this for real?
 
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Offline Buriedcode

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The burden of proof is on the person making the claim.
Prove it, and I'll reconsider.

 :-DD

This entire thread has descended into juvenile arguments...  I'm still unsure why people get so passionate about Scott Adams, the guy is just a cartoonist who likes to be controversial.  He's said some obviously dumb things, and now its got a 28 page thread about fears of so-called "cancellation". We've had communism, antivax flirtations and very questionable links/citations.  Might be time to lock it eh?
 
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Online BrianHG

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Bringing it back to Adams, he has a famous list of hoaxes:
https://twitter.com/ScottAdamsSays/status/1631295633138016259

The fact that Scott Adams frames all of these as "hoaxes", despite the fact that many of them are well-documented to be true (including proper context), is bad, but unfortunately what I expect of Adams these days.
Yes, a few of them are well 'videoed' as they were news broadcasted live and and available on youtube.

For example, yes, Trump on live TV did suggest and tell a medical professional that maybe we should inject bleach to get rid of covid.

And I did think that Dave was referring to some more important credible scientific errors in news past, not these BS politically charged mumbo jumbo issued listed in his attached link.  Trying to defend or acknowledge that junk shouldn't be worth anyone's time.

Thanks to the attached video clips, I was mistaken to say 'Bleach', it was 'Disinfectant'.
 

Offline Zero999

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The mandates never made any sense because the vaccine doesn't induce sterilising immunity and it's certainty doesn't reduce the spread enough to have a significant effect on the number of cases.
The idea everyone needed to have it is not based on any scientific evidence. There is no evidence to suggest it provides any additional protection against severe disease and death, after someone has already been exposed to the virus. Someone who's already had the virus, then recovered would be perfectly rational in refusing the vaccine, because there's no evidence of any benefit. They FDA might as well have just told everyone, who caught it, to take ivermectin. It has the same level of evidence to support it as vaccinating those with natural immunity.

"Sterilising immunity" is almost impossible to prove because you have to demonstrate that an infection never occurred. All you can observe are symptoms. Some vaccines are more effective than others.
But we know the vaccine doesn't induce sterilising immunity, because those who've had it clearly continue to get infected. It was pretty obvious fairly early on, it wasn't going to stop the pandemic. When Alpha hit, we knew it was mutating to become more infectious, then Delta had sufficient immune escape to ensure it would slowly spread, even if everyone were vaccinated overnight and Omicron just spread like wildfire.

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The idea everyone needed to have it was based on the scientific evidence available at the time.
Taking the vaccine after natural immunity has mostly worn off is effective and has been proven to work.
No it was not based on any credible scientific evidence. The vaccine may boost antibody titres, but that doesn't last long and there's no evidence it offers any additional benefit, in terms of protection against severe disease and death. The body produces memory T-cells which provide long lived protection against severe disease and death. Don't forget, getting infected isn't a problem, so long as it's mild.

There has been no randomised, placebo-controlled trial into whether vaccines provide any benefit in those who have natural immunity. None whatsoever. The evidence to support it is no greater than that for ivermectin. Now I wouldn't listen to anyone advising me to take that either, unless I had worms.

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The risk vs benefit analysis depends on the individual.

True. And that's why in my country older people were prioritized when the vaccine was first rolled out.
But there is still a positive benefit vs risk for all adults, but it just isn't as large. So to refuse the vaccine as an adult is just foolishness, paranoia, or the inability to understand statistics.
Then why were people who had never been infected and more vulnerable, put before those with natural immunity? It didn't make sense to vaccinate a 60 year old who had the disease a few weeks ago, before a 50 year old with no prior infection. :palm:

There clearly is not a positive risk-vs-benefit for all adults. Suggesting everyone take this vaccine, irrespective of health and natural immunity, is just as illogical as someone refusing it, when the data suggests they would benefit. There's no reason why a healthy 18 year old man, with natural immunity should take this vaccine. None at all. If he's already survived the disease, there's absolutely no plausible reason why it would be more severe when he catches it again. None at all. Even the tiniest risk of adverse events is unacceptable.

Fortunately there are some sane doctors around. My bother had a bad case of COVID-19, back in summer 2021, when unvaccinated. No he didn't refuse, he had physical trauma and was advised to delay vaccination for a couple of weeks. He was only 37 and the virus got into his heart, triggering two big heart attacks. He had to have a stent put in and will be on medication for the rest of his life. His cardiologist told him not to take any of the COVID-19 vaccines, because there no proof of any benefit has he has natural immunity and the vaccine has a significant, risk of giving him myocarditis or pericarditis. I don't think for a second his doctor is an anti-vaxer, just looked at the evidence available and came to a rational decision. Anyway, my brother got COVID-19 again a year later, had a stinking flu-like illness and recovered with no long term effects.

I have no problem with vaccines. They have saved millions of lives, but as with every other intervention, there needs to be strong evidence to support it and in this case many health authorities have badly let us down.

..Remove the specific organ transplant thing and substitue for basic (no covid related) health issues. Once again, people and even politicans advocated for this "cancellation" of basic health rights. In that case it's absolutely trivial to argue that an unvaccinated person equally paid their taxes and is therefore completely entitled to the equal health care they paid for...

So an alcoholic who requires a liver transplant but refuses to give up drinking should have the same right to an organ as someone who does not engage in behavoir that will likely reduce the value of that organ?  Or a smoker?  Being unvaccinated isn't a "health issue" as that implies that it is some kind of disease, or something that is out of ones control - it is a choice, and one proven to improve health outcomes.

I am not suggesting that all unvaccinated people should have had all operations or treatments denied, but you specifically said organ transplants - where organs are in short supply, and all transplants carry with them a lifelong obligation to specific behavoir and habits (as well as lifelong immunosuppressants).  Vaccination is especially important for organ recipients because of this - the risk/benefit equation is very much skewed. The waiting lists for organs are long and must be prioritised to ensure the maximum benefit. Whilst there are myriad reasons for a person to move up/down the lists - actively refusing to fulfill an obligation that improves the outcome or increases the success of the operation will likely put you down the list.

In a society with a national health service, there is an obligation to provide the best "bang for your buck" - and that includes not wasting extremely valuable/scarce resources on those who refuse treaments on ideological grounds.  That isn't all treaments, just those that are the most expensive/valuable.
There was also the madness of people refusing blood from those who had been vaccinated. You couldn't make it up. :palm:
« Last Edit: March 12, 2023, 07:45:11 pm by Zero999 »
 

Offline james_s

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This entire thread has descended into juvenile arguments...  I'm still unsure why people get so passionate about Scott Adams, the guy is just a cartoonist who likes to be controversial.  He's said some obviously dumb things, and now its got a 28 page thread about fears of so-called "cancellation". We've had communism, antivax flirtations and very questionable links/citations.  Might be time to lock it eh?

It's not passion about Scott Adams, the whole cancel mob thing is much, much bigger than him. And despite it being blatantly obvious that it happens, there are still people that somehow insist that it isn't real.
 

Offline james_s

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There was also the madness of people refusing blood from those who had been vaccinated. You couldn't make it up. :palm:

That is truly bizarre, though if somebody requires blood and they choose to refuse it for that or any other reason I really don't have a problem with that, it's their life and if they die because of the choice they made that is their problem, not mine.

Similarly I read someone is trying to make a law in some state that vaccinated people can't donate blood, that is insanity in my mind, but when they have a massive shortage of blood it will be clear very quickly that the law and the legislator that created it are responsible.
 

Offline Siwastaja

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It's not passion about Scott Adams, the whole cancel mob thing is much, much bigger than him. And despite it being blatantly obvious that it happens, there are still people that somehow insist that it isn't real.

The same people who insist it's not real, also support the case that it's good.

I'm fine with double standards, actually, we all are more or less susceptible of letting something "slip" when done by our favorites; but intellectual dishonesty and outright sociopathic lying I hate.
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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This entire thread has descended into juvenile arguments...
Yes, apparently my links to Nature and peer-reviewed articles on the unreproducibility of psychology and cancer research aren't up to par against Very Solid Beliefs stated as facts.

very questionable links/citations
Yes, Nature is such an alt-right publication, very Fox News -like.  They haven't even put Greta on the front page yet!  How dare they!

Might be time to lock it eh?
"Please shut down this discussion.  It is hurting my emotions."

I haven't yet seen a single credible post defending cancellation, or showing any other than emotive basis for why treating anyone like Scott Adams was treated should be acceptable.  Is that the real reason you want this thread to be locked down?  Because it makes you question your beliefs?
 
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Offline ebastler

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Might be time to lock it eh?
"Please shut down this discussion.  It is hurting my emotions."

I indeed find this thread painful. A 28-page circle jerk, with 95% of posters in vehement agreement and the remaining 5% getting shot down or insulted when they speak up.

Being part of this back-patting circle may be comforting for your emotions, but I don't think it does much good for your intellect. I recommend the regulars' table at the bar for this type of discussion. Cheers.
 
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Offline Kim Christensen

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Quote
The mandates never made any sense because the vaccine doesn't induce sterilising immunity and it's certainty doesn't reduce the spread enough to have a significant effect on the number of cases.
The idea everyone needed to have it is not based on any scientific evidence. There is no evidence to suggest it provides any additional protection against severe disease and death, after someone has already been exposed to the virus. Someone who's already had the virus, then recovered would be perfectly rational in refusing the vaccine, because there's no evidence of any benefit. They FDA might as well have just told everyone, who caught it, to take ivermectin. It has the same level of evidence to support it as vaccinating those with natural immunity.

"Sterilising immunity" is almost impossible to prove because you have to demonstrate that an infection never occurred. All you can observe are symptoms. Some vaccines are more effective than others.
But we know the vaccine doesn't induce sterilising immunity, because those who've had it clearly continue to get infected. It was pretty obvious fairly early on, it wasn't going to stop the pandemic. When Alpha hit, we knew it was mutating to become more infectious, then Delta had sufficient immune escape to ensure it would slowly spread, even if everyone were vaccinated overnight and Omicron just spread like wildfire.

I only mentioned "sterilising immunity" because the person I was replying to brought it up. During the pandemic there were many antivaxxers claiming they weren't actually antivaxxers because they had been the recipients of other vaccines. When it became clear that the covid vax didn't provide sterilizing immunity, the antivaxxers felt vindicated while trying to claim that it was useless.
But that's the thing about "sterilizing immunity", while it is easy to prove that a vaccine doesn't provide sterilizing immunity, it is much more difficult to prove when it does. Many other vaccines do not provide sterilizing immunity but are still useful to administer.

Quote
Then why were people who had never been infected and more vulnerable, put before those with natural immunity?
Because it was very early in the pandemic. There was no widespread easy way to test people the entire population for natural immunity. Logistically, it was simply easier to base it on age and overall health status than trying to triage people of unknown status.

Quote
There has been no randomised, placebo-controlled trial into whether vaccines provide any benefit in those who have natural immunity. None whatsoever.
Not sure how you would slip an antivaxxer a "placebo" but here you go:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2119497




« Last Edit: March 12, 2023, 08:36:57 pm by Kim Christensen »
 

Offline coppice

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There was also the madness of people refusing blood from those who had been vaccinated. You couldn't make it up. :palm:
That is truly bizarre, though if somebody requires blood and they choose to refuse it for that or any other reason I really don't have a problem with that, it's their life and if they die because of the choice they made that is their problem, not mine.
Its not that bizarre. Studies have shown the key components of the vaccine in some people's blood and organs for considerable periods after it was administered. If you don't trust the vaccine, why would trust blood that might contain it going straight into your own blood stream?
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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A 28-page circle jerk
Hmm.  You considering posts referencing research published in Nature a 'circle jerk' explains a lot.

5% getting shot down or insulted when they speak up
Well, if they are wrong, they deserve to be shot down.  None of the 5% you refer to have backed up their opinions with anything (except their own beliefs).

Insulted, no.  But when they start demanding evidence without providing any themselves, they do deserve to be insulted.  Not cancelled, mind you, but definitely insulted.

Being part of this back-patting circle may be comforting
I don't care.  I want a rational discussion, not one where your objection is "I don't think so" or "I don't believe you" or "you need to prove yourself if you dare disagree with me".  I've provided the basis (not complete, but via examples) for all the statements I've made in this thread.  Yes, you disagree.  That is not sufficient to demand that the discussion is stopped or "moved to a regular's table at the bar".

I hope you see the irony in your own response.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2023, 08:44:12 pm by Nominal Animal »
 

Offline Zero999

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Then why were people who had never been infected and more vulnerable, put before those with natural immunity?
Because it was very early in the pandemic. There was no widespread easy way to test people for natural immunity. Logistically, it was simply easier to base it on age and overall health status than trying to triage people of unknown status.
There were plenty of people who had already been tested and known to to have previously had the infection, yet were still vaccinated before those who hadn't, simply because they were a bit older.

Quote
Quote
There has been no randomised, placebo-controlled trial into whether vaccines provide any benefit in those who have natural immunity. None whatsoever.
Not sure how you would slip an antivaxxer a "placebo" but here you go:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2119497
Of course an anti-vaxer wouldn't enrol in a vaccine trial, so I don't see how that comment is relevant. There would have been plenty of people who would have enrolled in such a trial. I believe I probably had it in March 2020 and if an antibody test proved it, would have precipitated in a vaccine trial, given the chance.

Even taking it at face value proves the Canadian policy of giving everyone two doses is retarded, as there was no difference between one vs two doses. Those wasted doses could have been used for those who needed them.

But, that study still doesn't prove a positive risk-vs-benefit.

It's not a double-blind, randomised, placebo-controlled trial. More importantly, it just looks at re-infection, rather than severe disease and death and doesn't even deal with adverse events. So what if the second infection just causes a cold? What if the rate of myocarditis is higher from post-infection vaccination, than reinfection? Remember Moderna was proven to have higher rates of myocarditis and AstraZeneca and J&J had a greater risk of blood clots under 40s, so one can't assume the vaccine is always safer.

Not taking natural immunity into account is stupid and has no doubt cost many lives. There will have been many who needed the vaccine but didn't get it who've died and a some who didn't need it, yet suffered injury or death.

 

Offline nctnico

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Quote
Then why were people who had never been infected and more vulnerable, put before those with natural immunity?
Because it was very early in the pandemic. There was no widespread easy way to test people for natural immunity. Logistically, it was simply easier to base it on age and overall health status than trying to triage people of unknown status.
There were plenty of people who had already been tested and known to to have previously had the infection, yet were still vaccinated before those who hadn't, simply because they were a bit older.
I agree with Kim here: Given the number of people that needed to be vaccinated, you need to streamline the process and base it on simple rules. As older people are more vulnerable, they where called in first.

Also, protection against flu like virusses (Rhino, Influenza, Corona, etc) wears off pretty quickly (*) and these group of virusses mutate a lot as well. So there is an additional benefit of vaccinating people with a vaccine that targets a wider range of mutations compared to the (single) mutation they have already been subjected to.

* I don't know how things are at your end, but over here there has been quite a big flu pandemic because people didn't got the flu for a while due to all the Covid restrictions and their immunity declined. That is also why older & vulnerable people get a flu vaccination every year. Having read a bit into it, I strongly doubt there ever will be a vaccine that cures the flu 100%. The best is to get infected a couple of times per year so your immune system remains up to date and well trained.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline Bud

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Everything else aside, i never understood the apeal of Dilbert cartoons. They always seemed to me stating the obvious and often being silly and borderline stupid. Kind of same as Mr Bin, never found him funny, just plain idiotic. Wish the author the best though, as he did/does have his audience.
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Offline james_s

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Thanks to the attached video clips, I was mistaken to say 'Bleach', it was 'Disinfectant'.

Injecting a person with a "disinfectant" is not an entirely idiotic thing to speculate, at least on the surface if we assume they lack medical expertise. By "disinfectant" I am assuming they mean a substance that kills the virus but somehow doesn't harm the host, not an off the shelf disinfecting cleaner such as Lysol. Now I'm not suggesting this is actually possible, but in the right context is is far from the dumbest thing I've heard a person say, and I still don't think it was a suggestion of something a person should go out and do.
 


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