New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope

[Fungus]

My friend doing flash erase damaging device
ds1054z
thanks

Haiku?

[rolycat]

My friend doing flash erase damaging device
ds1054z
thanks

Haiku?

Pastel lines fly past:
Brief signals frozen in time
Flawed tools can do much.

[metrologist]

That's brilliant.

Reads Harikiri.
While that is still Japanese,
it not quite the same.

[bitseeker]

Pastel lines fly past:
Brief signals frozen in time
Flawed tools can do much.

Nicely done!

[tooki]

My friend doing flash erase damaging device
ds1054z
thanks

Haiku?

Pastel lines fly past:
Brief signals frozen in time
Flawed tools can do much.

OK, the forum has been played through its endgame. We can all go home now.

[kandrey89]

Bought DS1104Z-S for the company, a couple of things pissed me off right away. Didn't have time to perform upgrades, shipped the scope out to our second office, for an emergency measurement system install.

1. The channel zero marker on the left is lower than the GND level, by as much as 0.2 grid height, it's painfully visible.
2. The frequency and voltage selection for the source generator is insanely complicated. The small knob that scrolls the frequency up and down changes values too easily when trying to click the knob. The frequency entry using the scroll knob is horrible because the knob keeps changing numbers because of how smooth the scroll is when you try to press the knob to select one of the numbers for manual entry.
3. There's no way to change source generator units from: Vpk2pk/Offset to Vhigh/Vlow. Really stupid to setup a pulse because I needed to set 300mV Vpk2pk and Offset to 1/2 of Vpk2pk in order to get 300mV Vhigh and 0mV Vlow.

Has any of these been addressed in any of the firmware updates?

[ankerwolf]

Hello,

Bought DS1104Z-S for the company, a couple of things pissed me off right away. Didn't have time to perform upgrades, ...

Don't cry! Update - SelfCalibrate - ... and learn 
Or, buy another Scope.

[Fungus]

Bought DS1104Z-S for the company, a couple of things pissed me off right away...

1. The channel zero marker on the left is lower than the GND level, by as much as 0.2 grid height, it's painfully visible.

Welcome to the physical world, where all devices have specified tolerances and are less than 100% perfect.

Your chosen device's specifications are:

Code: [Select]

DC Offset Accuracy: ±0.1 div ±2 mV ±1% offset value
DC Gain Accuracy: <10 mV: ±4% full scale ?10 mV: ±3% full scale

Do a self-calibration and see if it improves a bit. Remember; the DC offset may change with temperature so you have to switch it on and leave it for half an hour in the place you intend to use it before you do the self-calibration. You also have to warm it up to that exact temperature before the voltage readings will be within the spec above.

In practice a tiny bit of DC offset doesn't matter:
a) The primary function of an oscilloscope is to look at the shape of signals and to see how they vary with time.
b) The 'low' signal put out by your devices probably isn't 0.000000V anyway, it's just 'low'.

[BravoV]

Regarding self calibration, for those who has upgraded to the latest 04.04.03.02, you can save the scope's calibration values , and keep it for archival. At least this will be interesting to see if there is any major difference on next future self calibration.

Detail on saving the scope calibration values was posted here -> Save CalData.txt

Again, this feature only available at 04.04.03.02.

[Winkhaus]

I am not sure where did you get the idea about the 5000 * 12k points. It simply dumps either whatever is on the screen, if you select "Screen" as the source or the entire memory of the scope, if you select "Memory". There is no concept of "frames" there - what are you referring to?

I'm pretty much certain he was thinking about segmented memory recording. At 12k points per frame / segment / trigger event, that would be 500 waveforms to fill the 6Mpts memory per channel though.

I have not tried segmented memory yet but I'm guessing the memory dump function only dumps the currently selected segment.

Hello all,

I'm a newbie DS1054Z user and I believe I have run into this issue.
 
I'm trying to capture and download about 10 seconds of single channel audio waveform which is roughly 50-100mV P-P.  I set MDepth=120kpts and TScale=100ms/div and the scope solves for SRate=100kpts/sec.  I was able to record the waveform (I'm using the trial version of the recording feature) and store a CSV format file on the USB stick.  However, the file is only 120k lines long which is only 1.2 seconds worth of data.

Can anyone tell me if there's a simple work-around for this? Is it easy to program SCPI commands to retrieve the data?

Or alternatively, is there a simpler scope or device that can do what I need?  I realize I could probably just feed the signal into the PC audio jack and analyze it that way, but I was hoping for a reasonably user-friendly device with a display, over-voltage protection, selectable voltage and time scales, etc.

Thanks,
Winkhaus

[Fungus]

I set MDepth=120kpts... store a CSV format file on the USB stick... the file is only 120k lines long

That's correct. 

Can anyone tell me if there's a simple work-around for this?

Increase MDepth...?

Is it easy to program SCPI commands to retrieve the data?

SCPI is easy, much easier than saving CSV to sticks, etc., if you're going to use it a lot. It gives access to every function of the oscilloscope.

All you do is connect to TCP port 5555 and send the commands as ASCII text. You can play with it using telnet ("telnet 5555").

Programming guide is here

[ebastler]

I'm trying to capture and download about 10 seconds of single channel audio waveform which is roughly 50-100mV P-P.  I set MDepth=120kpts and TScale=100ms/div and the scope solves for SRate=100kpts/sec.  I was able to record the waveform (I'm using the trial version of the recording feature) and store a CSV format file on the USB stick.  However, the file is only 120k lines long which is only 1.2 seconds worth of data.

Can anyone tell me if there's a simple work-around for this?

You have to do two things, I think:
(a) Increase your time base setting, to 1s/div. Otherwise, why should the scope take 10 seconds' worth of data? It will only capture one screen's width of data.
(b) Increase MDepth, as 120 kpts/10s are probably not enough for audio sampling.

[Karel]

I'm trying to capture and download about 10 seconds of single channel audio waveform which is roughly 50-100mV P-P.  I set MDepth=120kpts and TScale=100ms/div and the scope solves for SRate=100kpts/sec.  I was able to record the waveform (I'm using the trial version of the recording feature) and store a CSV format file on the USB stick.  However, the file is only 120k lines long which is only 1.2 seconds worth of data.

Can anyone tell me if there's a simple work-around for this? Is it easy to program SCPI commands to retrieve the data?

First, amplify your audiosignal with a factor 10 at least. Otherwise it will be too noisy.
Any mediocre audio opamp will do better than no opamp at all.

Second, set the memory depth to the maximum e.g. 24Mpts.

Third, download the waveform data, not the display data.
Easiest way to do this is by using DSRemote.

[Winkhaus]

Ok, I probably wasn't clear enough.  When I recorded the waveform it captured I think 10 or 12 screens of data (screen=frame=segment ?), and I didn't understand why it only downloaded one of those screens to the CSV file.  I think you're telling me the solution is to have it record everything on one screen.  So I need to increase both TScale and MDepth while holding SRate constant.  I'll give that a try.  But I still don't understand why, if you're recording multiple screens, you can't download all of those screens.

About amplifying the signal, sorry for the dumb Q, but how does that make it less noisy?  And what's the point of having millivolt ranges if you have to use op-amps prior to sending the signal to the scope?

Thanks for the replies.

[Karel]

About amplifying the signal, sorry for the dumb Q, but how does that make it less noisy?  And what's the point of having millivolt ranges if you have to use op-amps prior to sending the signal to the scope?

Because the input stages of DSO's are very noisy, specially at the milli-Volt level.
Short explanation: this is because the designers have to make a compromise between low-noise and high-bandwidth when selecting components for
the analog input section.

p.s.: why do you want to record multiple frames (with time gaps between them)?
Most people want to download the waveformdata as one contiguous block of samples.

[David Hess]

About amplifying the signal, sorry for the dumb Q, but how does that make it less noisy?  And what's the point of having millivolt ranges if you have to use op-amps prior to sending the signal to the scope?

The input stage has a JFET or MOSFET source follower acting as an impedance converter leading to a tradeoff between noise and bandwidth.  A small area (low capacitance) FET is needed for high bandwidth but small area FETs have higher noise.  Higher bandwidth oscilloscopes have less sensitive volts/div settings and this is why; it does not make much sense to have higher sensitivity if it just results in more than a division of displayed noise.

[Winkhaus]

p.s.: why do you want to record multiple frames (with time gaps between them)?
Most people want to download the waveformdata as one contiguous block of samples.

I don't really, I just thought that was the way you were supposed to do it.  The recording feature does allow for multiple frames and a 100ns gap between frames wouldn't really bother me.  But I would think if you have the ability to record multiple frames you should also be able to easily see which frames are currently stored in memory and be able to download them all to a USB stick, which was basically my original question.

About amplifying the signal, sorry for the dumb Q, but how does that make it less noisy?  And what's the point of having millivolt ranges if you have to use op-amps prior to sending the signal to the scope?

The input stage has a JFET or MOSFET source follower acting as an impedance converter leading to a tradeoff between noise and bandwidth.  A small area (low capacitance) FET is needed for high bandwidth but small area FETs have higher noise.  Higher bandwidth oscilloscopes have less sensitive volts/div settings and this is why; it does not make much sense to have higher sensitivity if it just results in more than a division of displayed noise.

Ok, thanks for that explanation.  Since I'm mostly interested in low-frequency (<20KHz) and low amplitude signals, maybe this scope isn't the best tool for the job?  Do you have any alternative suggestions?

[JPortici]

any sound card / audio interface? do you need DC? there are DC coupled audio interfaces and oscilloscope software for your computer

[ebastler]

Since I'm mostly interested in low-frequency (<20KHz) and low amplitude signals, maybe this scope isn't the best tool for the job?  Do you have any alternative suggestions?

Well, a decent sound card of course (plug-in or USB). They have A/D converters with much higher dynamic range (lower analog noise, more digital bits). 96 kHz and 192 kHz sampling rate are commonplace.

[metrologist]

I'm still interested in the question about downloading all of the memory segments. Is this just a matter of selecting memory vs. screen data as what to save to the USB stick?

I'm not by my scope, and I give up looking for it in the user manual, so I don't recall exactly what the terms were in the save settings, something like memory or screen. This is something I want to do to take very long measurements (like 14 hours), and create a plot on the PC.

[Winkhaus]

Yes, I think a sound card is probably the direction I'm going to go with this.  I would like to be able to see signals in the range of a few mV to 15-20V P-P with frequencies of <20KHz, and yes, I would want to see the DC offset, if any.  I also want to be sure I'm not going to fry the device if I accidentally put 15-20V into an input that's only expecting 1V or so.

[David Hess]

The input stage has a JFET or MOSFET source follower acting as an impedance converter leading to a tradeoff between noise and bandwidth.  A small area (low capacitance) FET is needed for high bandwidth but small area FETs have higher noise.  Higher bandwidth oscilloscopes have less sensitive volts/div settings and this is why; it does not make much sense to have higher sensitivity if it just results in more than a division of displayed noise.

Ok, thanks for that explanation.  Since I'm mostly interested in low-frequency (<20KHz) and low amplitude signals, maybe this scope isn't the best tool for the job?  Do you have any alternative suggestions?

An amplifier is one option; the gain of the amplifier effectively divides the noise from the oscilloscope front end.  One interesting option for this is the old Tektronix AM502 1MHz differential amplifier (1) which not only supports gains from 1 to 100k but has differential inputs and variable low and high pass filters; the output from the AM502 plugs into a singled ended oscilloscope or other instrument giving it differential input capability.

Some old and out of production lower bandwidth oscilloscopes have high sensitivity and low noise but that is probably not the best option and if you want to do audio analysis, then a general purpose oscilloscope or DSO is not the best instrument.  They are good for development work and tracking down high frequency spurious oscillations though.

For audio, some sound cards are a good option when combined with audio analysis software.  The thing I would look for however is differential inputs because otherwise ground loops will prevent low noise operation.  That is one of the big advantages of the Tektronix AM502 mentioned above and it could be used with a sound card.

Some useful links:

http://www.clarisonus.com/Research%20Reports/RR001-SoundCardEval/RR001-PCsoundCards.html
https://trueaudio.com/rta_abt1.htm
https://trueaudio.com/rta_usb.htm
https://quantasylum.com/products/qa401-audio-analyzer

(1) I have one AM502 and a pair of 7A22s which are basically the same thing but built into an oscilloscope.  I use them for small signal audio work and noise analysis.

[Gary.M]

The input stage has a JFET or MOSFET source follower acting as an impedance converter leading to a tradeoff between noise and bandwidth.  A small area (low capacitance) FET is needed for high bandwidth but small area FETs have higher noise.  Higher bandwidth oscilloscopes have less sensitive volts/div settings and this is why; it does not make much sense to have higher sensitivity if it just results in more than a division of displayed noise.

Ok, thanks for that explanation.  Since I'm mostly interested in low-frequency (<20KHz) and low amplitude signals, maybe this scope isn't the best tool for the job?  Do you have any alternative suggestions?

An amplifier is one option; the gain of the amplifier effectively divides the noise from the oscilloscope front end.  One interesting option for this is the old Tektronix AM502 1MHz differential amplifier (1) which not only supports gains from 1 to 100k but has differential inputs and variable low and high pass filters; the output from the AM502 plugs into a singled ended oscilloscope or other instrument giving it differential input capability.

Some old and out of production lower bandwidth oscilloscopes have high sensitivity and low noise but that is probably not the best option and if you want to do audio analysis, then a general purpose oscilloscope or DSO is not the best instrument.  They are good for development work and tracking down high frequency spurious oscillations though.

For audio, some sound cards are a good option when combined with audio analysis software.  The thing I would look for however is differential inputs because otherwise ground loops will prevent low noise operation.  That is one of the big advantages of the Tektronix AM502 mentioned above and it could be used with a sound card.

Some useful links:

http://www.clarisonus.com/Research%20Reports/RR001-SoundCardEval/RR001-PCsoundCards.html
https://trueaudio.com/rta_abt1.htm
https://trueaudio.com/rta_usb.htm
https://quantasylum.com/products/qa401-audio-analyzer

(1) I have one AM502 and a pair of 7A22s which are basically the same thing but built into an oscilloscope.  I use them for small signal audio work and noise analysis.

Looking at the True Rta site and the usb options the Scarlett Solo could be a good option and the Tascam, which I recently looked closely at could be exceptional. Current models of both are usb2 and sample up to 192k.The Tascam has a rated 123db dynamic range. The QuantAsylum devices are good and self contained. I have a 1054z and a QA400 for audio work.

Sent from my x600 using Tapatalk

[Winkhaus]

I'm trying to capture and download about 10 seconds of single channel audio waveform which is roughly 50-100mV P-P.  I set MDepth=120kpts and TScale=100ms/div and the scope solves for SRate=100kpts/sec.  I was able to record the waveform (I'm using the trial version of the recording feature) and store a CSV format file on the USB stick.  However, the file is only 120k lines long which is only 1.2 seconds worth of data.

Can anyone tell me if there's a simple work-around for this?

You have to do two things, I think:
(a) Increase your time base setting, to 1s/div. Otherwise, why should the scope take 10 seconds' worth of data? It will only capture one screen's width of data.
(b) Increase MDepth, as 120 kpts/10s are probably not enough for audio sampling.

Actually I forgot, I had already tried this.  The problem is that if you increase the time base setting past 100ms/div, then for some reason the Record menu item (under the Utility/Record menu) is greyed out as OFF and cannot be changed to ON.  If the time base is 100ms/div or less, then it is enabled and can be changed to ON.

:::sigh:::  Any other ideas?

[metrologist]

but you'd only need one segment. I mean single capture then download the full trace and expand it.

a sweep of 1s/div with 24M points memory depth gives you 2 millions points per second of 12 seconds of data. Set Storage to CSV and DataSrc to Memory. That might take over an hour to download off the scope though. I was never patient enough to find out how long it takes.

BTW, you can also expand the trace on the scope using zoom mode and see a smaller time frame, and then set the DataSrc to Screen when you save CSV if you just want what's on the display.