EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[Muttley Snickers]

I think that I will stick with my existing ridiculous battery back from the dead gadget which was supposed to recharge primary carbon batteries and the like, it never worked as promoted but recently I found that it can and does work with rechargeable's.

[samgab]

Here's a scenario, using times taken from Energizer's E91 datasheet:



I took the example of a device with a 250mA constant current discharge at 21 deg C.
With that cell, such a device would run for 7.5 hours until it was, to all intents and purposes, dead as long as it had a very low cutout voltage.


So, lets have a look at the amount of runtime you would get out of that cell if the devices low voltage cutoff was set to various levels:



This is the same data, using the same 250mA constant current scenario.
If you have a device which cuts out at 1.0V, it would cut out after just over 7 hours of operation, and you would have another 22 minutes of operation potential left in the cell, if all other things were 100% efficient, say if you took the cell out of the device with the 1V cutoff at that point and put it into a new device with the same 250mA constant current draw but with a 0.6V cutoff.
If the same device with 250mA CC draw cut out at 1.1V, it would cut out at just under 6 hours of operation, and doing the same as above you could potentially gain another 1 hour and 39 minutes of use out of the cell doing the same as mentioned above.


Now, add into this scenario the inefficiencies of the boost converter, and other inefficiencies, and the gains are not that much.


So there's no way you'd gain an extra 800%, or even 80%. You might gain a few minutes here and there.
Now if you have the batteriser on the cell from when it is inserted new into the device; see their FAQ:
"Does the battery need to be “dead” before you use the Batteriser?
No, you can start using the Batteriser at any time, even a brand new battery, and you will get the benefits of extended battery life."


Then, the inefficiencies of running a boost converter add up over the entire 6 hours or so you would be running the device.


The curve for a constant power draw device follows the same pattern.


If you have a flashlight that is a simple bulb connected to a battery, which dims after a certain amount of use, using this device will give you a constant brightness output, which is great, that should be the promotional message. But the time it runs will be LESS than the original draw, because you don't get nuthin' from nuthin', and drawing a constant power from a cell and maintaining a constant voltage output, your current draw rises until either the cell gives up or the device can't handle the current draw and cuts out. It doesn't matter how efficient or small the boost converter is, it can't beat the laws of physics/thermodynamics/conservation of energy/ohm's...
In fact, in the scenario of a flashlight, because the human eye's response to light is logarithmic not linear, you might actually get longer performance out of the unregulated flashlight in some scenarios, because of the human eye's acceptance of, and adaptability to, a lack of light vs perceived light.


Also, this shows why you can't just divide the 0.1V steps between 1.3V and 0.6V into equal portions and say that means there are 8 x 0.1V steps remaining. How much energy is contained in the 0.7-0.6V step? Zero. Same goes for the 0.8-0.7V step. Snails climbing out of wells notwithstanding.

[5ky]

About to start the test with some fresh duracells that I just bought (same brand they used in their video)

[EEVblog]

This is the same data, using the same 250mA constant current scenario.
If you have a device which cuts out at 1.0V, it would cut out after just over 7 hours of operation, and you would have another 22 minutes of operation potential left in the cell, if all other things were 100% efficient, say if you took the cell out of the device with the 1V cutoff at that point and put it into a new device with the same 250mA constant current draw but with a 0.6V cutoff.
If the same device with 250mA CC draw cut out at 1.1V, it would cut out at just under 6 hours of operation, and doing the same as above you could potentially gain another 1 hour and 39 minutes of use out of the cell doing the same as mentioned above.

Now, add into this scenario the inefficiencies of the boost converter, and other inefficiencies, and the gains are not that much.

So there's no way you'd gain an extra 800%, or even 80%. You might gain a few minutes here and there.

That's been everyone's argument from day 1.
It's bleedingly obvious by inspection to anyone who knows anything about batteries.

[EEVblog]

He's STILL at it!
He's just keeps the libel going 
OK, so he called himself David Parish again now, and has also claimed that "Brad Jones" is another real person.
Why then have both "David Parish" and "Brad Jones" posted the exact same comment to one of my videos?
What an absolute fruitcake! 
I can't believe Batteriser haven't shut down his channel and account.



The day before he was saying this:



I think he needs to seek professional help.

[linux-works]

I have a better idea for Batteriser to market....

Make a battery with a beeper and bluetooth module in it, so you can insert it into your TV remote control. When you lose the remote and can't find it, use your PHONE to connect to it and activate the beeper so you can hear where it is and find it.

ah, so what you really want is a combination "clicker and clapper!"

lol

[edy]

That's been everyone's argument from day 1.
It's bleedingly obvious by inspection to anyone who knows anything about batteries.

Yet how can it be that these high ranking executives of million and billion dollar companies who have 500+ patents under their belt and teach at University and have $1 million+ startup invested already can be so wrong? It just doesn't make sense...  I'd like to know what their motivation is, and how these brilliant businessmen and inventors have associated themselves with such an obviously fabricated media PR firm with laughable Google+ users and IndieGogo shills, and everything else that looks to be suspicious and faked. I bet you for one moment they never thought any EE would pay attention, nor would someone with a large following like Dave catch them in the act. They completely miscalculated that they would be called out to prove anything. All the most revealing videos they've made are a direct response to the criticism initiated by EEVBlog. They were not ready and their PR firm is actually terrible at guiding them through this minefield that they have sown for themselves.

Out of curiosity I tallied up how many Batterisers have been sold (see spreadsheet):

104,920 as of now

If they have 90 days to produce these, they'll need to make about close to 1200 a day working 7 days a week. If they wait for IndieGogo to get funds and it takes 30 days on a shipping container from China, they will have to make 3500 per day (in the 30 days they have). It is a huge job, and the $300k IndieGogo will dry up fast.

[SundayProgrammer]

About to start the test with some fresh duracells that I just bought (same brand they used in their video)

Impressive 

[5ky]

I'll hit the 3 hour mark in 9 minutes and the thing is still going and the backlight hasn't even dimmed yet.  It's currently at 2.63v under load.  In their video, theirs supposedly completely died before it got to the 2 hour mark.  Their graph also shows a drop in current at about 1 hr 40 min, which I'd assume is the screen dimming at 2.6v.  That means they started the test with a not-so-fresh battery considering mine is about to hit 3 hours and still hasn't dimmed yet.   

EDIT: I forgot to mention, agilent's benchvue software limits datalogs to 1 hour each if you have the "free" version (paid one is $200).  Those cheap bastards.  I would've been better off using the same arduino that's controlling the servo to datalog to an SD card 

[Simon]

morons.
The device will show it can no longer display the back-light or it will shut down. That is a fail for either mode. With the their (custom) boost converter it runs almost 6X longer. UL has verified it in their lab.
Ah yes, then the comeback is UL is paid so they do what you want. Really, are you all that retarded. They are in business to make money, they charge to test a product. I do not know of any labs that test a company product for free. You cannot buy the result.
I have dealt with UL many times over the course of my career in Silicon Valley. They are very rigid in terms of reporting results.

And, genius, if you use an off the shelf boost converter you will likely see a different result. That is not their product. You may only see 2 or 3X. Keep digging. They win, you lose. Do something constructive. Like little children stomping their feet.
If you want to find bad things you will. If you want to find good things, you will. Just constantly negative. You cannot stop them. They have investors that have done due diligence. Try an incandescent flashlight. Will it stay brighter longer with a highly efficient boost converter? very simple. try it.

UL testing is for safety and not to verify that it works as described: http://ul.com/ anyone who understands anything about this will see a mile of that it's a scam and fast turning into downright fraud. Wony don't you go back to your rich boss and tell him he is never going to get anywhere. Well actually he may and that is why he is paying all this money to get fake articles and reviews not to mention youtube thumbs down. The device is cheap, $2.50 and will be bought in mass (he hopes) nobody is going to take him to court over $2.50 but collectively he will make a lot of money out of this fraud. These days you can't get justice over teaching material that tells lies that is governed by a government body never mind a misleading product.

Just the claim that it must work because it was UL tested is utter fraud and show batterizer and your boss for the scammer and fraudster he is. No go back and tell him we all said "Hi" oh and tell him that an oscilloscope with a calibration signal on a video at the back is not going to fool anyone, really how pathetic, in fact the most pathetic thing I have ever seen.

[5ky]

Well, I just hit the 4 hour mark and the screen was still max brightness as far as I could tell and the battery voltage was 2.55v under load.  Unfortunately, I have to get up for work at 5:30am and it's already 1:20 am so off I go.  (I would let it run on its own but I don't have pro version of benchvue so I have to restart datalog every hour)  I have more batteries from that same pack that I'll do a FULL run on.

But it's already completely busted.  I mean we knew that before doing any tests, but this proves it and I'll pop a video of this onto youtube once I get a full run in.  Their video showed their gps allegedly turn off BEFORE it hit the 2 hour mark.  I just hit double that and we still have about 450mv until we hit the cutoff voltage.  I smell some bullshit 

[FrankBuss]

No go back and tell him we all said "Hi" oh and tell him that an oscilloscope with a calibration signal on a video at the back is not going to fool anyone, really how pathetic, in fact the most pathetic thing I have ever seen.

Right, they should have at least showed some nice lissajous figures, as you can see in old science fiction movies

[Akra]

Hello,
There is an easy way to tell if you can squeeze more juce out of a Battery.
If you know the theoretical Capacity of the Battery, you can easily tell how much juce is left.
For this reason i did a chemical analysis of a brand new DURACELL Battery.

The results are in the attached pdf file.

In short:
The Battery delivers a capacity of about 3,5Ah with a constant Load of 5mA (datasheet) und this is almost the theoretical Limit (calculated from the analysis: 3,554Ah) !
So there is nothing left you can use to deliver more Capacity (if you don't break the laws of Physics of course).

This is scientific foundamental and it doesn't matter how you measure the voltage/Capacity, what circuit you use or whatever, when your Load is about 5mA (of corse higher Loads gives us a lower capacity due to the increase of ionic resitens) you can't squeeze more juce out of the Battery then you already do with a cut-off voltage of 0,8V.

(Sry for my english, i hope there aren't too many mistakes)

[HighVoltage]

Hello,
There is an easy way to tell if you can squeeze more juce out of a Battery.
If you know the theoretical Capacity of the Battery, you can easily tell how much juce is left.
For this reason i did a chemical analysis of a brand new DURACELL Battery.

The results are in the attached pdf file.

In short:
The Battery delivers a capacity of about 3,5Ah with a constant Load of 5mA (datasheet) und this is almost the theoretical Limit (calculated from the analysis: 3,554Ah) !
So there is nothing left you can use to deliver more Capacity (if you don't break the laws of Physics of course).

This is scientific foundamental and it doesn't matter how you measure the voltage/Capacity, what circuit you use or whatever, when your Load is about 5mA (of corse higher Loads gives us a lower capacity due to the increase of ionic resitens) you can't squeeze more juce out of the Battery then you already do with a cut-off voltage of 0,8V.

(Sry for my english, i hope there aren't too many mistakes)

Hello Akra,
Thanks for this highly interesting calculation!

In is interesting what one can learn about batteries from this thread

[Muttley Snickers]

I think I've worked out what the holes in the case are for, its so people can see through it.....




And can anyone here understand French as it's all Greek to me.

[EEVblog]

There is an easy way to tell if you can squeeze more juce out of a Battery.
If you know the theoretical Capacity of the Battery, you can easily tell how much juce is left.
For this reason i did a chemical analysis of a brand new DURACELL Battery.
The results are in the attached pdf file.
In short:
The Battery delivers a capacity of about 3,5Ah with a constant Load of 5mA (datasheet) und this is almost the theoretical Limit (calculated from the analysis: 3,554Ah) !

I haven't seen that done before, nice!, thanks for sharing.

[Fungus]

And can anyone here understand French as it's all Greek to me.

Sounds like he's just reading the Batteriser press release so it's just the usual batteriser marketing fluff.

Batteries can last 8x longer...

It works because most devices shut down at 1.4V, leaving most of the power unused...

etc.

[SteveyG]

He's STILL at it!
He's just keeps the libel going 
OK, so he called himself David Parish again now, and has also claimed that "Brad Jones" is another real person.
Why then have both "David Parish" and "Brad Jones" posted the exact same comment to one of my videos?
What an absolute fruitcake! 

"David Parish" - "Brad Jones"

Perhaps his real name is "Brad Parish" and decided to mix his name up with "David Jones"

[TheAmmoniacal]

Hello,
There is an easy way to tell if you can squeeze more juce out of a Battery.
If you know the theoretical Capacity of the Battery, you can easily tell how much juce is left.
For this reason i did a chemical analysis of a brand new DURACELL Battery.

The results are in the attached pdf file.

In short:
The Battery delivers a capacity of about 3,5Ah with a constant Load of 5mA (datasheet) und this is almost the theoretical Limit (calculated from the analysis: 3,554Ah) !
So there is nothing left you can use to deliver more Capacity (if you don't break the laws of Physics of course).

This is scientific foundamental and it doesn't matter how you measure the voltage/Capacity, what circuit you use or whatever, when your Load is about 5mA (of corse higher Loads gives us a lower capacity due to the increase of ionic resitens) you can't squeeze more juce out of the Battery then you already do with a cut-off voltage of 0,8V.

(Sry for my english, i hope there aren't too many mistakes)

Handbook of Batteries (3rd edition, McGraw-Hill) agree with you.

0.308 Ah / g * 11.530 g = 3.55124 Ah.

[Fungus]

There is an easy way to tell if you can squeeze more juce out of a Battery.
If you know the theoretical Capacity of the Battery, you can easily tell how much juce is left.
For this reason i did a chemical analysis of a brand new DURACELL Battery.
The results are in the attached pdf file.
In short:
The Battery delivers a capacity of about 3,5Ah with a constant Load of 5mA (datasheet) und this is almost the theoretical Limit (calculated from the analysis: 3,554Ah) !

I haven't seen that done before, nice!, thanks for sharing.

OK, so we can now discharge our batteries down to a specific voltage, measuring mAh as we go, and we know exactly how much energy is left in the battery when we reach that voltage. No need to calculate areas under curves.

It might be worthwhile doing that and plotting a graph of battery voltage vs. remaining energy (if anybody has the time/inclination/hardware).

ESR is a problem though - the observed voltage will be different under different loads. You'd have to plot a graph at several different loads for it to be useful.

What would be cool is a programmable device that could vary the load every minute or so, logging the voltage at each load - do it in one pass.

[Fungus]

PS: What causes the difference in battery capacity due to temperature and load? Is it purely due to wasted heat from ESR?

ie. In cold weather it has higher ESR and will produce more heat. Higher loads mean the battery gets warmer.

[Synthetase]

PS: What causes the difference in battery capacity due to temperature and load? Is it purely due to wasted heat from ESR?

ie. In cold weather it has higher ESR and will produce more heat. Higher loads mean the battery gets warmer.

Battery chemistry. The chemical reactions will slow down as the ambient temperature drops, limiting current flow. Also when the cell is subjected to higher load current, what you're asking from the chemistry is for a lot of ions to find their way to electrodes really quickly, this is a physical process and it takes time for it to happen, hence the faster you want it to go, the less time it'll last and vice versa. This is also why cells can appear to recover significant capacity after a rest: the chemicals have had a chance to disperse more throughout the whole cell, so you don't have a huge build-up of 'spent' chemicals directly around each electrode.

[jancumps]

And can anyone here understand French as it's all Greek to me.

Sounds like he's just reading the Batteriser press release so it's just the usual batteriser marketing fluff.

Batteries can last 8x longer...

It works because most devices shut down at 1.4V, leaving most of the power unused...

etc.

Yes, they are mentioning the initial specifications: 80% energy left in discarded batteries, gear stops at 1.4V, Multiplies life of battery by 8.
They say they don't know if the claimed specs are true - with a grin - so it's not just repeating the fluff.
Further they discuss that rechargeable batteries are a more straightforward solution, and one of them mentions that that is not a feasable solution in all cases, because the voltage is lower.

[bookaboo]

In fairness if there is a useful application for the batteriser it's not a 5mA constant load, never in a million years would a boost converter help there. That said their marketing bs infers otherwise.

[samgab]

You know where the real forefront of miniaturisation and efficiency in boost converters for AA Cells is?
LED Flashlights.
Zebralight for instance, build single-AA flashlights which are incredibly efficient and have fantastic buck/boost DC/DC converters which are miniaturised into the head of the tiny torches. Such as the SC5 AA, for instance:
http://www.zebralight.com/SC5-AA-Flashlight-Cool-White_p_161.html




Here's a review of that flashlight:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?403440-Zebralight-SC5-(1xAA-XM-L2)-Review-RUNTIMES-BEAMSHOTS-VIDEO-and-more!
and notice the stable regulation of the boost converter on Alkaline cells (the pink straight lines):



But LED flashlights such as Fenix have been doing this for years. They certainly are getting better at it though. A lot of earlier flashlights struggled to regulate properly with a single AA Alkaline, but this one does it really well, with a super flat output "curve" or straight line, as the battery discharges right down to 0.7V.


The SC5 I mentioned here, for instance, has the following runtimes (on a single eneloop):
535 Lm (3min, then 325lm, total 0.8 hr),
325 Lm (0.9 hr) /
200 Lm (1.8 hrs) /
115 Lm (3.5 hrs),
48 Lm (8.5 hrs),
20 Lm (16.5 hrs) /
8 Lm (42 hrs),
1.1 Lm (16 days) /
0.3 Lm (50 days) /
0.1 Lm (4 months)
Parasitic Drain: 2.4 uA (much less than the self discharging of a battery)

That's some pretty efficient electronic design there.