EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[Fungus]

Why the fuck would I engage with a complete tosser like you?
I've seen all the shit on your blog.

He's a regular reader of a blog by a complete tosser? How does that work?

If he knows who Dave is then maybe it's because he's been 'warned' by somebody.... 

[LabSpokane]

Wayne is doing the first independent testing anyone has ever seen of a batteriser. Let's give him a break. Initial photos of results are on his facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/revivebatteries/photos/pcb.1266516956748005/1266507556748945/?type=3&theater

Thus far it looks like the boost converter stops regulating somewhere just above 1.1V.  The boost converter otherwise does indeed boost the voltage of the battery, as expected, and provides a brighter light over a longer period of time on a economical flashlight. For many users, this may be considered a benefit And justify the purchase of the batteriser sleeves. 

Determination of the energy extraction claims remains to be determined and I'm not sure Wayne is set up to do that.

[Fungus]

Wayne is doing the first independent testing anyone has ever seen of a batteriser.

Let's give him a break.

OK.

Thus far it looks like the boost converter stops regulating somewhere just above 1.1V.

Not good. There's still about 5-10% left at 1.1V

And why did the test stop before they died/went black?

The boost converter otherwise does indeed boost the voltage of the battery, as expected, and provides a brighter light over a longer period of time on a economical flashlight.

It changes the brightness curve, no surprises there.

For many users, this may be considered a benefit And justify the purchase of the batteriser sleeves. 

OTOH: LED flashlights with built-in boosters can be bought for the price of a set of Batterisers.

(I suspect his flashlights have built-in boosters...could we ask him the brand/model of those?)

[FrankBuss]

Not good. There's still about 5-10% left at 1.1V

And his 'results' page showed that Batteriser did indeed die first.

The results are a bit difficult to interpret, because of the random swap during the test, but right, looks like it is as expected, the battery which was used longer with the Batteriser dies first.. If they would marketing it as "full power for half the time" it would make sense for old torches with no integrated booster, and if you want this behavior. They could even name it "battery booster" or "batterooster" (this would allow some nice animal logo)

[Cerebus]

That PCB edge looks like a rat's been having a good chew on it though:

It's just multiple adjacent drill holes that are used to allow a PCB to be broken out of the manufacturing panel. The industry standard slang for this is "mouse bites" so you weren't a million miles off.

[ChunkyPastaSauce]

The sleeves from units sent to Revive:


The sleeves from UL testing in 2015


The sleeves from units that were finalized, as posted on igg


The sleeves from units in production, as posted on igg




Note this is just on the sleeves, the PCB on Revives unit  does not match UL unit and (imo) the production photo

[Fungus]

Note this is just on the sleeves, the PCB on Revives unit  does not match UL unit and (imo) the production photo

Smoke and mirrors? Confirmed.

[ez24]

Note this is just on the sleeves, the PCB on Revives unit  does not match UL unit and (imo) the production photo

Good catch   4 vs 5   

[AmmoJammo]

I'm fairly certain that what has been sent to these initial recipients are not production units, but the pre-production samples that we've been seeing all along. But, finally, there are units in the wild to test claims against.

Ah, but you see, when these units fail to perform as claimed, Bob can simply tell us all that they weren't the final production version, and that they don't contain the custom IC yet...

[AmmoJammo]

Eeerr... he swapped which battery the sleeve was on half way through the test, and stopped the test before either torch went off?
So, we can conclude nothing so far...

EDIT: To quote his original post.

BATTEROO - Batteriser Test 1.

Bear with me here people - this is not a technical scientific evaluation - just me doing some logical make it up yourself testing in my shed.
The picture is a bit rudimentary but it does the job.

NOTE: Batteroo specifically does not recommend using the Batteroo sleeve on LED torches due to the fact that some LED drivers utilise constant current circuitry for the LED light - but I decided to go ahead and check it out anyway.

I found it very interesting - see what you reckon? I did a 2nd test which I'll post if I get time tonight or tomorrow.

OK, so I just found out that facebook won't let you post a file? or I can't work it out ? so I'll just take a screen pic and do it anyway.
If anybody wants a copy of the spreadsheet just let me know and I'll send it to you.

[Fungus]

Eeerr... he swapped which battery the sleeve was on half way through the test, and stopped the test before either torch went off?

 

I just had flashbacks to Probes the monkey...

[Fungus]

If I were Dr. Roofatopabar and had a solid product, the very first person I'd be sending samples to would be Dave. What better way to turn the internet's opinion other than letting your adversary test it and prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Batterizer indeed works. Imagine what that would do to potential investors on Batteroo!

And if you were Dr. Roofatopabar and didn't have a solid product, the very first person you'd be sending samples to would be that Australian ...* who was in the office a few months ago.

(*) Insert appropriate adjective for somebody who'd swap the batteries around in the middle of a test.

a) Dr. Bob and Wayne have an agreement

This is starting to look very likely.

You couldn't make this stuff up if you tried. I can't wait to see his test number 2, as promised "later today".

[Blocco]

Don't be too hard on Wayne, he didn't ask to be put under the spotlight and would, no doubt, prefer not to be drawn into the Batteroo circus. The fact that he has been is entirely Bob's fault for not publishing specifications and test data for the "game changing" product that he made such extravagant claims for. And we can't really criticise him for not releasing his Batteroos for testing when he is hoping to become a distributor and obviously doesn't want to do anything that might jeopardise this possibility.

[AmmoJammo]

As mentioned, I don't think we should criticise his test procedure just yet. I think he just needs some guidance on how to go about it 

[samgab]

I know it's not supposed to be any kind of proper scientific test or anything, but ...swapping the sleeves mid test, just because "I felt like it and I have nothing to prove and I can do whatever I want in my garage, it's just a bit of fun I'm doing for myself and I'm just releasing the info for S&G's"... Why? Just why would you do that? 

You don't have to be a scientist or even a person of average intelligence to realise that that completely makes worthless and pointless anything you're doing with them if you swap your test conditions mid test. I just cannot comprehend the motivation behind doing that. Unless you have hopes of "a huge potential to make money if they do work"... Hmm, where have I read that before? Oh yeah, in his letter to Dave.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg1077240/#msg1077240

[Fungus]

As mentioned, I don't think we should criticise his test procedure just yet. I think he just needs some guidance on how to go about it 

I'm dubious. The whole point of Batteriser is to extend life. Why not just switch two flashlights on and see how long they last? 

[Fungus]

By a complete coincidence, the batteries that had Batterisers on them dropped from 1.23 to 0.89V in just 7 minutes after the sleeves were swapped.

ie. He decided to swap the sleeves right at the exact moment when the Batterized battery's voltage was falling off the cliff.

What are the odds of that?? 

And ... he decided to "stop the test and try something different" about 20 seconds before that flashlight would have gone completely black (if it was at 0.89V shortly after removing the load then it's only got 0.001% of power remaining). 

[LabSpokane]

As mentioned, I don't think we should criticise his test procedure just yet. I think he just needs some guidance on how to go about it 

I'm dubious. The whole point of Batteriser is to extend life. Why not just switch two flashlights on and see how long they last? 

Because this isn't really a good test either.  It doesn't tell us about the energy extracted from the battery.  We need to convince Wayne to send a sleeve to someone with a setup that can log voltage and current at both the battery and batteriser terminals.

And, I'll ask again for everyone to lay off Wayne.  Wayne is a victim, not a bad actor.  He depended on Bros. Roohparvar to correctly represent their product and what's actually been sent to him, which clearly is not a production unit.

We need Wayne's help.  Let's be helpful to him.

[Fungus]

I'm dubious. The whole point of Batteriser is to extend life. Why not just switch two flashlights on and see how long they last? 

Because this isn't really a good test either.

No, but it's simple, it's logical, and if the flashlights have internal boosters then it's not a terrible test.

And, I'll ask again for everyone to lay off Wayne.  Wayne is a victim, not a bad actor.  He depended on Bros. Roohparvar to correctly represent their product and what's actually been sent to him, which clearly is not a production unit.

I agree that Bob is probably using him, just like the electronics guy in the monkey videos.

OTOH: Somebody who's nick is "revivebatteries" and who runs a business based around batteries ought to know a dead AA battery when he sees one.

If he measured 0.89V on a battery without remarking "It's dead, Jim!" then... 

Edit: He also calls respected people "complete tossers" with abandon. This reduces the sympathy for him if he's fallen for Bob's lies and is now trying to dig himself out of a hole by trying to show they work as advertised (so he can sell them to other people).

[EEVblog]

Wayne spoke with Batteroo about the shipping issues:

I spoke to one of the blokes at Batteroo this arvo to clarify some issues people are complaining about on your forum. It's actually quite easy to just speak to them and ask the questions (I'm generally quite good at picking if I'm being bullshitted to so I ask the right questions)
The stock for the indiegogo orders has been shipped from China to their US office and then manually posted to the individual backers. I got in early so I was in the first wave of shipments. I think they were having issues and I know there was no tracking number with my order (I think that's fixed now?) That explains the manual customs dec.
There are about $400,000 of orders and they reckon they are about 30% shipped. They are trying to get all of the indiegogo orders finished in 2 weeks time. (but I know they have promised deadlines before so believe it or not?)

[Fungus]

Wayne spoke with Batteroo about the shipping issues:

I spoke to one of the blokes at Batteroo this arvo to clarify some issues people are complaining about on your forum. It's actually quite easy to just speak to them and ask the questions (I'm generally quite good at picking if I'm being bullshitted to so I ask the right questions)
The stock for the indiegogo orders has been shipped from China to their US office and then manually posted to the individual backers. I got in early so I was in the first wave of shipments. I think they were having issues and I know there was no tracking number with my order (I think that's fixed now?) That explains the manual customs dec.
There are about $400,000 of orders and they reckon they are about 30% shipped. They are trying to get all of the indiegogo orders finished in 2 weeks time. (but I know they have promised deadlines before so believe it or not?)

And yet... smiling Bob can't post a single photo of all those crates of Batterisers stacked up in his office.

It's hard to know what to think. Would Bob lie that blatently?

Question: If the above statement is true (ie. they're being shipped from the USA) then why didn't people in the USA receive them before Greece/Australia.

[EEVblog]

If I were Dr. Roofatopabar and had a solid product, the very first person I'd be sending samples to would be Dave. What better way to turn the internet's opinion other than letting your adversary test it and prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Batterizer indeed works. Imagine what that would do to potential investors on Batteroo!

Yes, and Bob knows this very well. The fact that he has never spoken to me personally, or offered samples, speaks volumes.
He knows I"m approachable and will test them properly. We clearly doesn't want them tested properly.
He's not a dumb guy, this is the CEO of big companies, a university professor. he knows precisely what he is doing and doesn't want anyone with any technical ability near a Batteriser, let alone one with an audience.

[AmmoJammo]

So they're spending $23 to send a $20 item to people? 

[Fungus]

So they're spending $23 to send a $20 item to people? 

That was to Austria. Shipping inside the USA will be cheaper (and it's probably the majority of backers).

[madires]

So Batteroo does no take advantage of the Chinese state sponsered shipping, ships from the US at high costs and ships to IGG backers while not having all the addresses. This is exactly what I would do to ruin a business.