EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[Brumby]

.... in case it gets deleted ....

Nobody will take that bet.

[EEVblog]

[Brumby]

Here's a thought....

What if Batteroo actually do have a product.  Certainly one that won't give you anything like 800% and one that might be limited in current capacity, but nevertheless does work.

BUT it has a fundamental weakness in its mechanical strength - so much so, that even with careful handling, it will not survive for long.  This is especially concerning since there has been more than one reservation about the physical space available for the sleeve....


Are they lowering our expectations - to reduce the disappointment?




This postulation DOES rely on them actually having a product, though.....

Oh, well.  It was just a thought.

[janekm]

They've learned from a certain character that has been in the news a lot lately. If there's a controversy around you (when will you ship?), just come out with lots of other, smaller controversies (how often can it be reused?) and you've created a brilliant diversion. Repeat often enough, and you can stretch it out to success... whatever success would be for Batteroo...

Here's a thought....

What if Batteroo actually do have a product.  Certainly one that won't give you anything like 800% and one that might be limited in current capacity, but nevertheless does work.

BUT it has a fundamental weakness in its mechanical strength - so much so, that even with careful handling, it will not survive for long.  This is especially concerning since there has been more than one reservation about the physical space available for the sleeve....


Are they lowering our expectations - to reduce the disappointment?




This postulation DOES rely on them actually having a product, though.....

Oh, well.  It was just a thought.

[AndyC_772]

BUT it has a fundamental weakness in its mechanical strength - so much so, that even with careful handling, it will not survive for long.  This is especially concerning since there has been more than one reservation about the physical space available for the sleeve....

IMHO the mechanical strength of a device was never a fundamental limitation. With good design, appropriate choice of materials and high quality manufacturing, there's no reason why the product shouldn't

oh.

[SL4P]

I'm impressed  that the 'glowing testimonials' all refer to the Butterizer's amazing ability to jump from xx% up to 100% as soon as the 'sleeve' is fitted to their device.

Well,well, i believe this was the fundamental 'flaw' in the original 'batterpoo' concept - that it indicates a higher potential, but has virtually zero effect on the ability to deliver any additional energy.

It suits their business model.  Make the lights flash frantically, but don't actually do anything.

[EEVblog]

Here's a thought....
What if Batteroo actually do have a product.  Certainly one that won't give you anything like 800% and one that might be limited in current capacity, but nevertheless does work.

I am still convinced they do, and they will eventually ship it unless something else cans the whole thing before then. They have professional VC investment, so they must have something, they can't fake that.
And I've always said there is absolutely zero value in their last few updates if they genuinely aren't relatively close to shipping something.
These guys are delusional, but they are not stupid enough to say they are shipping when they don't even have a product. These are not your usual Indiegogo scammers who can just disappear into the night, they are major players in the business with serious industry reputations (which of course their name is now a laughing stock in most circles, but hey, they'll still get offered CEO jobs and future VC funding).
What their actual game is beyond that is speculation, my theory is they are bullshitting about the actual delivery status, delaying as long as possible hoping for that miracle Walmart/KMart order (which was their goal from day 1) before the game is up when people actually use this thing and the data gets out there.

[Jay_Diddy_B]

Hi group,

Whatever the Batteroo team have done or do, they will not be able to overcome the effect that I described in reply 3322 almost a year ago.

To save you looking for the message, I will reproduce it here:

Maximum Power Point Measurement - Duracell AA

I have just finished an experiment to measure the Maximum Power Point of a Duracell AA cell.

Procedure

A HP6060A electronic load and HP3478A DMM were controlled using HPIB.

The cell was discharged using a constant current of 200mA for 30 minutes, 100 mAh.

Then the load was switched to Constant Resistance mode and the load resistance was stepped from 1 Ohm to 0.2 Ohms in 50m Ohm steps.

After the sweep to determine the maximum power, the load was returned to constant current. Then the cycle was repeated until the battery was depleted.

The cell voltage and current was measured at each step. The load power was calculated. The results were stored in a CSV file for analysis.


Maximum Power Point Results



This graph shows the maximum power that can be extracted from the cell at each step. The horizontal axis is the load resistance required to extract that power.

This is the absolute maximum power that can be extracted.

So to get 1.5V at 1A the battery must have been discharged by less than 300mAh (which is about 15%)

It doesn't matter what the Batteriser guys do, they can not exceed the power available from this set of curves.

This graph shows what is happening during a single MPPT sweep, this is after the cell was discharged by 200 mAh:



To get 1.5W you need draw about 2.2A from 0.7V, and at this point 1.5W will dissipated in the cell.


Additional comments 2016


1) You have to stay on the high resistance side of the maximum power point. If the integrated circuit increases the duty-cycle till you end up on the left side of the maximum power point, there is a phase reversal in the control loop and you end up shorting the battery.

2) If you are operating at or near the maximum power point. It is very inefficient. At the maximum power point 1/2 the power is in the load, the other half is in the ESR of the battery.

3) Since the ESR of the cell increases as the battery is discharged, The increasing ESR prevents the depleted battery from being able to deliver power to the load.

I did not order any Batteriser Batteroo products, but I would love to repeat this test with a  Batteroo.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

[EEVblog]

And obviously no one has received a tracking email, otherwise there would be at least one person who reports that out of thousands.

[rrinker]

 Wait, new theory (inspired by a friend who bought one of those shake lights on eBay only to find it just had some button batteries in it, no shake generator - the seller actually responded with "we have two types of shake lights, one with batteries and one without")

 The reason for the limited life of the Batteroo is there is no electronics in the thing, it's just a small button battery that sits in series with the battery you clipped it to. Sure enough, the battery meter on whatever device will not indicate 100%. But once used up, it won't be able to boost any more batteries.

(yes, just fooling here - or am I?)

[Lockon Stratos]

I wont even bother to read/watch these things, there is nothing new. The currently sold electric/hybrids vehicles are just a gimmick...

Well, the video linked was just a joke anyway...

...but interesting that you claim that EVs/hybrids are just a gimmick...I've been driving one for almost 5 years now, almost 62000 miles (100,000 km).  Interesting what you can do with a gimmick!

What i meant by that was that it has no real benefit over the traditional IC cars...

[kalleboo]

(inspired by a friend who bought one of those shake lights on eBay only to find it just had some button batteries in it, no shake generator - the seller actually responded with "we have two types of shake lights, one with batteries and one without")

There was something even worse than the "AMPY"?? https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/the-ampy-'kinetic-charging'-portable-phone-charger-starts-arriving-at-backers/

[Muttley Snickers]

In one of their earlier promotional propaganda episodes they used an image of a kid playing with a game console and clearly declared that the Batteriser could be reused over and over, other than the kid now being of adult age and no longer given the opportunity to debunk the product in his early years what else suddenly changed for them to recently nominate that the device can only be used several times or thereabouts ?.

[edavid]

Bob R devotes all of 30 seconds to a throwaway post, and then we waste hundreds of hours debating its meaning 

[Muttley Snickers]

Fair statement but unless you're a pilot in difficulty you can't really go changing the rules on the fly, not if you have any decency anyway.

[SL4P]

what else suddenly changed for them to recently nominate that the device can only be used several times or thereabouts ?.

Well... Boob realised that in reality, you'll only use the Batterpoo a couple of times before you discover it's effectively useless, or burns your product to ashes.

[Mr.B]

... other than the kid now being of adult age ...

 

[Brumby]

Defn: Kickstartled. the feeling of surprise one gets upon receiving a forgotten long overdue crowdfunded reward.

(I didn't coin the term, but I like it)

I like it, too.

But I reckon we would need something stronger - maybe "Kickgobsmacked" - if Batteroo sleeves do make an appearance.

[ez24]

The way I read it, is the mythological batteriser only lasts 3 times.  The picture states so - over, over, over  is three times.  But I guess in a court they could argue they meant the device can be turned on three times ?

[ccs46]

Bob R devotes all of 30 seconds to a throwaway post, and then we waste hundreds of hours debating its meaning 

Welcome to the wonderful world of engineering... It's what we do, we debate for hours on end determining the meaning of something that is so simple.   

[AmmoJammo]

The way I read it, is the mythological batteriser only lasts 3 times.  The picture states so - over, over, over  is three times.  But I guess in a court they could argue they meant the device can be turned on three times ?

No, 4 times total...

You use it once, then use it over again... and so on, once, then 3 repeats, 4 times total...

Nothing misleading about that! "Do it over" or "do over" means do it a second time...

[WattSekunde]

...
What their actual game is beyond that is speculation, my theory is they are bullshitting about the actual delivery status, delaying as long as possible hoping for that miracle Walmart/KMart order (which was their goal from day 1) before the game is up when people actually use this thing and the data gets out there.

Yes, and in batteroorizer dreams there are batteroorizers beside every battery shelf in every shop around the globe. They thought they can start the big snakeoil business via indiegogo without risking their own money.

If we had only non critical believers and clickbait producers in the media it would be a great success for batteroorizer. Remember all those ecstatic positive 800% news in the early days. They cannot be all wrong, right? 

I would not be surprised if in a few years they would reauthorize themselves in shops under another name. They only have to learn how to place the "product" in enough of the big markets. There are a lot of other snakeoil products out there...

[EEVblog]

So another week ends with not a single delivery 

[StuUK]

So another week ends with not a single delivery 

1 more day left to go here 

[g.lewarne]

I find it curious that Bob has been claiming actual shipping now for the last 3 weeks, when in reality we have not one single report of an actual product reaching a single verified backer.

If, as I suspect, shipping isn't actually happening at all, why did he chose to claim they are, when he had a multitude of other "get out of jail free cards" left to go - ship sank, big battery, manufacturing issues, squirrels made a nest out of the cash in his safe, herpes, etc etc

It seems strange.  Is this all just for show to get that "big" order, to please the VC investors....what?  Surely if you claim active shipping and after three weeks there is not one single verified report of delivery to an actual real person, the game is going to be up very, very, soon ?

Maybe that's the plan all along.  dunno