EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[quad]

Wayne posted underside

[onlooker]

I suspect the torch with the Batteriser turned off, and that's the reason he swapped the sleeve to the other cell

Right. Furthermore, revive's wording "duller" is subjective here. "A bit" further showed his own doubt.

Despite the swap, I think the data showed the two flashlights lasted about the same duration, though the one started without the sleeve lasted a bit longer. My conclusion: the flashlights have their own converter already.

[quad]

Test 2 is up: https://www.facebook.com/revivebatteries/

[quad]

I think there's a much more simple test that Wayne could do to see how these things perform in the real world.

Pick up a couple of battery powered fans (~$2 ea at a dollar store)

Put them both on your desk at the start of the morning. Have one with Batteroo sleeve, one without.

Make a note of the time. Power them up.

Note the time when first one stops spinning. (and note if it was Batteroo sleeve or not)

Note the time when the second one stops spinning.

Share the results. 

Can't get more 'real world' than this? ?

Then for extra test, put the dead batteries from first test - the ones without Batteroo sleeves - into Batteroo sleeves and put in fan and see how long the fan spins for.

I think I'm just recalling the test protocol Dave has outlined, but it's simple and effective. Why not do this??

[ez24]

Toys would be a good choice for this product.

And if they work there might be a market after all.  Wayne may laugh at us next year as he travels the world in his Lear jet selling these.

[Fungus]

But our friend was there, supporting Bob in his time of need when everybody else was doubting:
Maybe that's why he got the first box...

This makes sense. 

Better to keep the spotlight squarely on Bob, Batterroo and their claims. This is a tangential issue.

Not at all.

Bob claims they've been shipping from the USA for 28+ days and are "30% of the way through the list". What's the reason nobody in the USA has received any yet? One Austrian guy received some but nobody in the USA did? 

PS: You'd think he'd get a nice new 'production' set for being nice to Bob, not those old prototypes.

[6581]

But remember, batteriser told him it might not work with led torches, hence him looking for another test.

The search is on to find something that does work with the batteriser.  Monkeys?

Toys would be a good choice for this product. They rarely have their own battery management circuitry. Partially used batteries that drop the performance of the toy below some threshold would have energy remaining when discarded. As would an old bulb torch when the light becomes too dim.

Are you suggesting a toy monkey, perhaps?

EDIT: Sorry for the double post. (I blame Tapatalk.) It makes sense to (me to) have test data both in a device without a built-in step-up converter (best case for batteroo?) and with built-in step-up converter (I think this may be the most common device type these batteries end up in - just because they're so common.)

Let me thank Wayne here for sharing his test data! Very, very interesting. Thank you.

[Fungus]

I think there's a much more simple test that Wayne could do to see how these things perform in the real world.

Pick up a couple of battery powered fans (~$2 ea at a dollar store)

Put them both on your desk at the start of the morning. Have one with Batteroo sleeve, one without.

Make a note of the time. Power them up.

Note the time when first one stops spinning.

Nah, they could be spinning at different speeds.

I think this is also happening in the flashlight test: He says the unbatterised torch was 'hotter'. It could be that the LED is running much brighter without Batteriser but not in a way that the human eye can easily distinguish. You'd notice it more if you went outside at night and shone it around.

This implies the Batteriser can't supply enough current for full flashlight power. The unbatterised flashlight lasts approx 2 hours before dimming which implies it draws about 750mA.

If the flashlight has different power settings then the best test would be to run them side-by-side at lower power.

[EEVblog]

There is absolutely no way that the battery with the Batteriser after 2 hours can be 1.47V whilst the control battery is 1.18V (both open circuit voltages, but that's beside the point)

That has to be the voltage with the Batteroo sleeve, measured on the outside of the sleeve...

Yep, must be, in which case it's meaningless.

[EEVblog]

Wayne posted underside

Looks like soft potting compound maybe?
These things can't be that cheap to make? Processes like this add cost.
Also, as to be expected, the PCB is really thin, maybe under 0.4mm?

[ez24]

Wayne you should try this :

https://www.amazon.com/Westminster-Toys-Magic-Toy-Monkey/dp/B0000V4H4O/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&qid=1480049299&sr=8-14&keywords=monkey+toy

I cannot find it on Amazon Australia but this monkey got some attention at the beginning.  It uses 2 - AA's.  It makes a noise so you can work while you do tests.

[EEVblog]

To quote Wayne's 2nd Test:

The times won't correlate as it was just a rolling test of 2 batteries individually. Yes, I measured the voltage with the sleeve on in the 2nd
test as I figure that's what will happen if people buy them - all they will care about is if they are getting any benefit from them - they
won't be putting the sleeve on and off to measure the voltage. (Yes both batteries
coincidentally had the same starting voltage)

That means the Batteriser isn't even doing it's basic job of regulating a 1.5V output from any cell voltage! 
With output voltages of 1.58V, 1.46V after an hour, 1.21V after 10.5hours, 1.18V after 14.5hours 

[Fungus]

Wayne you should try this :

(monkey)

A batterised monkey could be clapping much harder for a shorter time than an unbatterised one.

Is that a good test? What would a parent prefer? Infernal din for a short time or a bit less din but it amuses the offspring for longer?

[Fungus]

Would our Darwinian friend be amenable to being sent a test device?

this is quick and dirty...

...and open to accusations of bias.

A Batteriser will always do worse on a purely resistive load. It's basic math: Higher voltage = more heat in the resister.

Then again, it will do always worse on a constant power load as well - it isn't 100% efficient.

It's hard to think of a device where it would actually be a win.

(The only thing that really comes to mind is a specially chosen GPS device or an LED flashlight that can't quite run the LED at maximum power because the Batteriser can't supply enough current, ie. We only get Batteriser heat instead of full-on LED heat.  )

[LabSpokane]

Wayne posted underside

Looks like soft potting compound maybe?
These things can't be that cheap to make? Processes like this add cost.
Also, as to be expected, the PCB is really thin, maybe under 0.4mm?

And now we see one of the issues in getting the Batteriser to market.  Potting is a nightmare in the best of circumstances.  Even in manual-operation-oriented China, that design is a huge mistake. Not only does it require massive amounts of time and filtering, the scrap rates must be through the roof. 

[LabSpokane]

That means the Batteriser isn't even doing it's basic job of regulating a 1.5V output from any cell voltage! 
With output voltages of 1.58V, 1.46V after an hour, 1.21V after 10.5hours, 1.18V after 14.5hours 

That was my immediate takeaway from seeing Wayne's data.

I know that everyone is jumping on to the bandwagon saying Wayne is doing it all wrong, but we've got that nugget right away.  That's a good start in my book. 

Keep testing Wayne!   

[EEVblog]

The only thing that really comes to mind is a specially chosen GPS device

The Garmin Golf GPS test has been proven to be either a deliberate fraud, or gross incompetence in testing.

[Fungus]

I know that everyone is jumping on to the bandwagon saying Wayne is doing it all wrong, but we've got that nugget right away.  That's a good start in my book. 

Keep testing Wayne!   

My impression is that he's never seriously had to test anything before and is slowly figuring out that it's not easy.

He now has enough data to plan some tests that don't end in the middle of the night when he's asleep.

[quad]

Maybe Wayne could put the "dead" batteries from the older tests that didn't use the Batteroos, and put them in a Batteroo sleeve and see how long the LED light goes for??

[twice11]

To quote Wayne's 2nd Test:
That means the Batteriser isn't even doing it's basic job of regulating a 1.5V output from any cell voltage! 
With output voltages of 1.58V, 1.46V after an hour, 1.21V after 10.5hours, 1.18V after 14.5hours 

Well, I think you are jumping to that conclusion too quickly. Surely, all of these numbers are different, but I guess all but one are outside the operational range of the device.

• 1.58V at the start from the fresh battery is above the target voltage, so a boost converter is unable to drop it to 1.5V. Props to Batteroo that they can handle "overvoltage" without the regulator chip doing something dumb
• 1.46V is the only point in this series with the batteroo sleeve operating. It is close enought to 1.5V (and the deviation might also be dure to an uncalibrated cheap meter)
• After 10.5 hours, the battery is practically dead, so the boost circuit is no longer able to uphold its output voltage.
• And during the last four hours, the battery was drained even more (at a low current with a very dim flashlight), so an even lower output voltage seems expected.

The interesting time range is from the time the battery first drops below 1.5V (likely at 5 to 15 minutes after start) to the time the battery is mostly discharged (likely at 2 to 4 hours after start, as there was the estimation of a current draw of around 750mA for the torch). There is no evidence yet that the batterizer does not work as specified during that time. In fact, in the first test, there were multiple data points at a similar voltage.

[quad]

I think there's a much more simple test that Wayne could do to see how these things perform in the real world.
...
Note the time when first one stops spinning.

Nah, they could be spinning at different speeds.
...

I wouldn't discount this test too quickly, as the current claim to "extend your battery life Significantly". It would be useful to know how much the Batteroo is shortening the battery life - albeit providing a faster spinning speed. 

Edit: Of course the best, most reliable and objective tests are going to come from people with the right tools, setup and experience like Dave and others.

[AmmoJammo]

...an LED flashlight that can't quite run the LED at maximum power because the Batteriser can't supply enough current, ie. We only get Batteriser heat instead of full-on LED heat.  )

You might be on to something, and its the only device I can think of that may extend run time.

My $4 LED torches seem to have a buck/boost regulator of some sort, they'll take a 14500 lithium cell, at 4.2volts, and run the led at a reduced voltage, or a standard 1.5volt cell, and boost the voltage up.

While being dimmer off the AA cell, they also get more run time, and run cooler.

[StuUK]

This whole thing stinks of diversionary tactics by Bob. Hat's off to him, he's a smart guy and knows exactly what he's doing... No doubt he's still trying to secure that 'Walmart' style deal before anyone who's not a groupie gets anything real... Won't matter then when proper testing reveal it's a crock of old BS.

[digsys]

I believe this whole thing is getting over complicated. I suggest we go back to the original claim !!
A fresh set of batteries - Time how long they last (no battereenie fitted) - then WHEN the device is accepted as EOL, remove and fit the batteroo. Time how much longer
life is extended.
The claim was - We ONLY use 20% of a battery's capacity, and batteroo will extend it 8X !! All other test procedures are "ours', and even though valid, complicate things.

[Fungus]

The claim was - We ONLY use 20% of a battery's capacity, and batteroo will extend it 8X !! All other test procedures are "ours', and even though valid, complicate things.

UP TO 8x.

And Bob does have a device that lasts 8x longer - the Garmin GPS. This performance was verified by Underwriters Laboratory, a very trustworthy organization.

(The fact that UL didn't sign the report, you can't look it up on their web site and they placed conditions on usage doesn't matter...the report is real!)