new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004

[mateusz12bob]

Hello, I would like to ask those who have purchased "Active 8-channel logic-HO3508" or would you share the inside of this probe if it was not a problem? because he wants to know if it's worth to buy such a component, or designing it his way.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Hello, I would like to ask those who have purchased "Active 8-channel logic-HO3508" or would you share the inside of this probe if it was not a problem? because he wants to know if it's worth to buy such a component, or designing it his way.

See my teardown vid. There is quite a lot in it, would be a lot of work to DIY

[mateusz12bob]

Hello, I would like to ask those who have purchased "Active 8-channel logic-HO3508" or would you share the inside of this probe if it was not a problem? because he wants to know if it's worth to buy such a component, or designing it his way.

See my teardown vid. There is quite a lot in it, would be a lot of work to DIY

Thank you for help, from what I see in the movie there are a lot of elements there, but if I had this logical probe, I would design a similar one if there was no microcontroller  programmed because he would probably be blocked, I must also admit that R & S well thought  and designed this probe.

[ws2812b]

when watching this video comparing the power consumption and the statistics of the X3000T and RTB2000, I'm wondering how can it be that the RTB2004 gathers more statistics although it by pure data-sheet has a lower update rate?  https://youtu.be/LpjTisUQQ84?t=18m20s

[Someone]

when watching this video comparing the power consumption and the statistics of the X3000T and RTB2000, I'm wondering how can it be that the RTB2004 gathers more statistics although it by pure data-sheet has a lower update rate?  https://youtu.be/LpjTisUQQ84?t=18m20s

They appear to be collecting statistic points at a similar speed in that video, the counts are increasing at the same rate when they are side by side looking at the oscillator. The slow measurement rate compared to the waveform rate is because the waveform rendering is a hardware/FPGA process, and in the Keysight the measurements are then taken from the rendered outputs (screen data) so it never sees the original samples (and wouldn't keep up). Whats the application for fast statistics? Most higher end scopes process the original samples and can do the statistics faster along with useful stats on stats like histograms, but those architectures don't reach the fastest realtime update rates.

[Hydron]

Just saw a youtube video where RTB2004 has been measured at <0.5W power use in standby:
This lines up with my measurement (using a much cheaper meter which I didn't trust), and eliminates any concern I have regarding standby power use without a real ON/OFF control.

Rich - is there any reason why you guys don't put this number in the datasheet? If standby use was poor then I'd understand omitting it, but it seems low enough to be worth putting in the datasheet to assuage any fears of high standby use.

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

Just saw a youtube video where RTB2004 has been measured at <0.5W power use in standby:
This lines up with my measurement (using a much cheaper meter which I didn't trust), and eliminates any concern I have regarding standby power use without a real ON/OFF control.

Rich - is there any reason why you guys don't put this number in the datasheet? If standby use was poor then I'd understand omitting it, but it seems low enough to be worth putting in the datasheet to assuage any fears of high standby use.

Good thought - I'll pass it on to the team.

-Rich

[mikeselectricstuff]

This is the datasheet for the PSU in the 2004, which shows 0.4/0.5W typ/max : https://www.xppower.com/Portals/0/pdfs/LF_ECS65-130.pdf
The 3004 PSU datasheet doesn't give a figure http://www.meanwell.com/Upload/PDF/EPP-200/EPP-200-SPEC.PDF but extrapolating from my cheap crappy plug-in power meter is probably a little under 1W

[Hydron]

Mike - the Meanwell datasheet says "No Load Power Consumption <0.5W" on the front page feature list but then omits it from the actual data section (why do people do that with important specs!?).

[surface_waves]

I have narrowed a scope purchase to the R&S RTB2004 and Keysight 3000X series. 

Many thanks to the participants in this forum, youtube videos from Dave, mikeselectricstuff, mjlorton, MichaelBRothschild, and others.

Yesterday I was beat in the last 10 seconds (and by $50) on a great ebay deal for a new 300MHz RTB2004 with all options, which ended up selling for $3,267:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-Scope-with-ALL-Options-2-5GS-s-300-MHz-4-16-MSO-NIB-NR/332530370156?epid=6005865238&hash=item4d6c5ac66c:g:me8AAOSw0A9aOv1s. 

Arrggh!!!!

It was from a company who had ordered two and had a project cancelled, so never opened the second one.  I can't get the knot out of my stomach.

I have two end use cases for a scope:
1) Serial decoding and embedded work.
2) RF and time synchronized baseband analysis (requires external 10MHz reference input, so minimum of 4000X series or RTE series)

Use case 1) was the interest for this scope.

From my point of view, here are the pros and cons of the RTB2004 scope compared to Keysight 3000T X series.  I understand that the RTM3000 series is what should be compared directly, but due to the Keysight 3000T being on the market longer, I can find used units with similar pricing to the RTB2000.

RTB2004 Pros:
*Best looking and most flexible interface (the interface looks really nice and useful)
*Interface to PC screen capability is built in (vs ~$500 add on for Keysight)
*10 bit ADC (significant)
*More memory and ability to control memory settings (significant)
*Fast startup (minor, it's only a minute)
*Low standby power (minor, can use hard switch, but Keysight should fix this or explain the 6W standby)
*Remembers settings upon power cycling (nice to have)

RTB2004 Cons (vs 3000X):
*No advanced math (Rich said this has a good chance of coming with future updates, but this is limiting currently)
*No 50ohm input (significant for me)
*Max 300MHz bandwidth (major difference vs 1GHz max)
*Lacks some of the more advanced decoding protocols (significant)
*Less responsive (significant)

The option bundle special for R&S expires today, but I can't get my head around paying (2,080 + 630)*1.0975 ~= $3,000 for a 70MHz version of the scope given that to upgrade to 300MHz (still not as high as I'd like) will increase the price to over $6K, which is in the pricing realm of finding used Keysight with 1GHz BW.  For example:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Agilent-MSOX3104A-1-GHz-4-Analog-16-Digital-Ch-Mixed-Signals-Oscilloscope/253398414378?hash=item3affb8f42a:g:8nMAAOSwGzxZgigW

I'm not sure that I understand the R&S bandwidth upgrade pricing either.  It looks like you might pay more to upgrade the BW later?  I'm referencing this options/pricing list:
https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=457823

It appears to me that option RTB2K-302MP.33 is $4K to upgrade the 70MHz scope to 300MHz and add the MSO option. 
Scenario 1: Purchase 70MHz 4channel model ($2,080) today, literally Jan. 31, 2018 is the last day for the $630 special for all software options.  Subtotal = $2,710.  Later, add upgrade option RTB2K-302MP.33 ($4K) to add 300MHz and MSO.  Total: $6,710
Scenario 2: Purchase fully loaded version now or later.  Doesn't require the special ending today.  Total: $6,185

For those okay with low bandwidth, the software special is helpful, but if you want 300MHz the regular price $525 less.  Correct me if I'm not getting it.

[Hydron]

If you're doing a lot of serial decoding work, consider that the RTB2k will only decode at half duplex per decode channel - you get a total of one full duplex decode or two half duplex (I2C/CAN only take one channel). On the other hand, you can move/resize bus decodes on the screen and it's smart about fitting the maximum amount of info into whatever size you've picked. The screen and memory depth are also major positives compared to alternatives. I can't really comment more, having not used the 3000X series in person.

[mikeselectricstuff]

If you're doing a lot of serial decoding work, consider that the RTB2k will only decode at half duplex per decode channel - you get a total of one full duplex decode or two half duplex (I2C/CAN only take one channel). On the other hand, you can move/resize bus decodes on the screen and it's smart about fitting the maximum amount of info into whatever size you've picked. The screen and memory depth are also major positives compared to alternatives. I can't really comment more, having not used the 3000X series in person.

It also does packet framing

[markb82]

RTB2004 Cons (vs 3000X):
*No 50ohm input (significant for me)

The 50ohm termination has been discussed before for this scope and others, and lacking it is really not an issue because you can just use a 50 ohm feed-through bnc terminator.

The option bundle special for R&S expires today, but I can't get my head around paying (2,080 + 630)*1.0975 ~= $3,000 for a 70MHz version of the scope

I feel the same way, and was also paying close attention to that eBay auction.  That said, if it was made hackable to 300MHz, say by someone first dumping the NW190 (MT29F4G08ABBDAH4-IT) Micron NAND flash the Altera SOC boots from....

[TheSteve]

If you ever plan to use active probes consider the 3000x series or the new RS RTM3004 model.

[mikeselectricstuff]

If you ever plan to use active probes consider the 3000x series or the new RS RTM3004 model.

But bear in mind that used older Agilent probes ( i.e. cheaper) will only work on the Keysight (some need minor mods).
The R&S probe supply is 5V and USB interface so at the very least you'd need a seperate PSU - not sure what voltage the Agilent ones use but expect probably +/-something higher

[Yansi]

As far as I remember reverse engineering a current probe TCP-202, the supply voltages on Agilent probes is dual +-5V and +-15V. I think this Tek probe could be plugged into Agilent scopes, but I stay being corrected.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Just accidentally discovered you can combine roll and XY modes :
https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/959025632830197761

I'm sure there must be some application for this....

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

That's cool!  Is xy mode refresh rate ~speedy or as slow as in other DSOs?

[CharlieEcho]

Yesterday I was beat in the last 10 seconds (and by $50) on a great ebay deal for a new 300MHz RTB2004 with all options...Arrggh!!!!...It was from a company who had ordered two and had a project cancelled, so never opened the second one.  I can't get the knot out of my stomach.

Always, always, always use a sniping service for auctions like this. I like Gixen: https://www.gixen.com/index.php

[yashrk]

Hey guys I just got the RTM 3004 scope for the week any suggestions on what should I test ??

[mikeselectricstuff]

That's cool!  Is xy mode refresh rate ~speedy or as slow as in other DSOs?

Fast - as fast as normal display mode

[JoHr]

Just accidentally discovered you can combine roll and XY modes :
https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/959025632830197761

I'm sure there must be some application for this....

... application is hula hoop dancing ... 

[Fgrir]

I have narrowed a scope purchase to the R&S RTB2004 and Keysight 3000X series. 
...

I have fully optioned out MSOX3024A and RTB2004 on my bench, and I can safely say that I use the RTB whenever I can and only fire up the MSOX when I have to.  Capability wise the MSOX has a few advantages like more decode formats, full-duplex decodes, advanced math, higher wfms/sec, etc., but the RTB's big screen, web interface and modern UI makes using the MSOX feel almost painful sometimes.

I honestly don't know which I'd choose if I had to have only one though...

[JoHr]

Just accidentally discovered you can combine roll and XY modes :
https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/959025632830197761

I'm sure there must be some application for this....

... got it ...

Some  Arduino sets come up with a small joystick. Based on two pots for horizontal and vertical movement.
There XY with roll mode enabled is very useful. Triggered acquisition might be disturbing there.
Lets add some persistence and have a happy developer.

[exe]

Hey guys I just got the RTM 3004 scope for the week any suggestions on what should I test ??

UI responsiveness? May be a few drop tests? "How electrically robust is your is your meter oscilloscope"?