new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004

[simone_b]

With a lower sample rate (under 62.5Msamples) the issue disappears. Let me check how to turn off interleaved mode and I'll post a new capture

[simone_b]

with a sample rate of 62.5Msamples (or lower) and only CH1 waveform is correct, with CH2 enabled and the same sample rate I have the issue again

[tv84]

The company that did the calibration can't repair or probably it's better to say that don't want to repair and give support. I'm angry about that, as I sent a working oscilloscope and I received a broken one 

You paid and have a receipt, right? If so, you're good to go. If not, then not much support.

[simone_b]

The company that did the calibration can't repair or probably it's better to say that don't want to repair and give support. I'm angry about that, as I sent a working oscilloscope and I received a broken one 

You paid and have a receipt, right? If so, you're good to go. If not, then not much support.

Of course I have, but the company refuses to repair it, as they said that it was probably damaged during the shipping or delivery

[nctnico]

The company that did the calibration can't repair or probably it's better to say that don't want to repair and give support. I'm angry about that, as I sent a working oscilloscope and I received a broken one 

You paid and have a receipt, right? If so, you're good to go. If not, then not much support.

Of course I have, but the company refuses to repair it, as they said that it was probably damaged during the shipping or delivery

Better get into the fine print then of who is responsible for the shipping and who is liable for shipping damages. It is time for you to seek legal advice about what your rights are here.

[simone_b]

Better get into the fine print then of who is responsible for the shipping and who is liable for shipping damages. It is time for you to seek legal advice about what your rights are here.

I have checked with my colleague who had in charge the calibration: oscilloscope and other non electronic instruments have been sent to a company (A) for calibration. This company (A) sent the oscilloscope to another company (B) for calibration and a certificate was issued. Then the oscilloscope was sent back to company (A) and then back to me.

I have found the issue after about 1.5 months after the calibration as I don't use it everyday and now, from what I saw with your help, I can probably say that it was because I only used one channel.

So what they are saying is that it was damaged during the delivery or that I have used anda damaged (without any proof) and so they are not responsible for that. I will check with the purchasing office, but probably a lawyer and all the bureaucracy around is more expensive than an ex-demo.

According to the user manual:

Service manual
Describes the performance test for checking the rated specifications, module replace-
ment and repair, firmware update, troubleshooting and fault elimination, and contains
mechanical drawings and spare part lists. The service manual is available for regis-
tered users on the global Rohde & Schwarz information system (GLORIS, https://
gloris.rohde-schwarz.com).

Do you know if the service manuals are available for end users too or only for some labs/services?

[KaneTW]

I found the RTM3000 service manual, but not the RTB2000 (https://gloris.rohde-schwarz.com/file/RTM3000_RTA4000_ServiceManual_en_03.pdf). I sent a request to R&S.

[simone_b]

Thanks, I was checking too, but I couldn't find anything for RTB2004, even if the quoted text if from RTB2004 user manual.
I'll check the service manual you shared to see what kind of informations are included

[simone_b]

As I thought schematics are not available

[2N3055]

Better get into the fine print then of who is responsible for the shipping and who is liable for shipping damages. It is time for you to seek legal advice about what your rights are here.

I have checked with my colleague who had in charge the calibration: oscilloscope and other non electronic instruments have been sent to a company (A) for calibration. This company (A) sent the oscilloscope to another company (B) for calibration and a certificate was issued. Then the oscilloscope was sent back to company (A) and then back to me.

I have found the issue after about 1.5 months after the calibration as I don't use it everyday and now, from what I saw with your help, I can probably say that it was because I only used one channel.

So what they are saying is that it was damaged during the delivery or that I have used anda damaged (without any proof) and so they are not responsible for that. I will check with the purchasing office, but probably a lawyer and all the bureaucracy around is more expensive than an ex-demo.

According to the user manual:

Service manual
Describes the performance test for checking the rated specifications, module replace-
ment and repair, firmware update, troubleshooting and fault elimination, and contains
mechanical drawings and spare part lists. The service manual is available for regis-
tered users on the global Rohde & Schwarz information system (GLORIS, https://
gloris.rohde-schwarz.com).

Do you know if the service manuals are available for end users too or only for some labs/services?

Is this random "noise" looking same on both CH1 and CH2? If it does, than it cannot be analog front end. It must be with ADC or after..

Well, that particular defect might not have to do anything with the calibration. Maybe vibration in transport exacerbated the problem, but probably it is manufacturing defect. If scope has no visible signs of mechanical damage, electronics could not be damaged in this way by cal facility. There are many occasions that scopes fall of the desk, are visibly completely broken but power up just fine and work. There was a guy here on EEVBLOG that repaired a Keysight 3000A scope that had car run over it in a parking.  He had problems finding pieces of the case, but scope worked fine.

Problem is most likely in ADC for those CH or in acquisition data pump/memory part for that ADC.
It is either IC defect (bonding defect for instance) or soldering..
If warranty is not there, careful disassembly and testing with cold/hot air or gentle tapping around the board might reveal
location.  In which case if it is soldering, it might be fixed by reflow.

I wouldn't go lawyer path. They will be more expensive than scope in just few hours.
Just get the "new" demo one and get insurance for it this time.

I don't know if R&S has extended warranty maintenance contracts like Keysight.
With Keysight they are actually good deal. Maybe ask them.

Once you have replacement working scope, you might try repair old one. If you succeed, you have another one.
But you would need to send it to calibration again to verify it's working OK. Or just perform performance verification yourself if you have equipment.

[KaneTW]

I wouldn't go lawyer path. They will be more expensive than scope in just few hours.
Just get the "new" demo one and get insurance for it this time.

A lawyer will probably cost a bit, but for me it's more about penalizing bad business behavior than maximum profit. Consulting on whether you have a leg to stand on will be a few hundred at most.

[2N3055]

I wouldn't go lawyer path. They will be more expensive than scope in just few hours.
Just get the "new" demo one and get insurance for it this time.

A lawyer will probably cost a bit, but for me it's more about penalizing bad business behavior than maximum profit. Consulting on whether you have a leg to stand on will be a few hundred at most.

Nature of defect to me point more likely of a manufacturing defect by R&S.
There is no proof that calibration facility did anything wrong.
You cannot damage ADC or circuits after it simply from the outside.

It was simply spotted few months after calibration and presumed it was because of that.
It can be coincidence.

Maybe, if the scope was previously run in the lab that has high temperature variations during the day or if it was carried around on daily basis and exposed to vibration regularly,  it might have broken down during warranty...

We can't know.

[simone_b]

Better get into the fine print then of who is responsible for the shipping and who is liable for shipping damages. It is time for you to seek legal advice about what your rights are here.

I have checked with my colleague who had in charge the calibration: oscilloscope and other non electronic instruments have been sent to a company (A) for calibration. This company (A) sent the oscilloscope to another company (B) for calibration and a certificate was issued. Then the oscilloscope was sent back to company (A) and then back to me.

I have found the issue after about 1.5 months after the calibration as I don't use it everyday and now, from what I saw with your help, I can probably say that it was because I only used one channel.

So what they are saying is that it was damaged during the delivery or that I have used anda damaged (without any proof) and so they are not responsible for that. I will check with the purchasing office, but probably a lawyer and all the bureaucracy around is more expensive than an ex-demo.

According to the user manual:

Service manual
Describes the performance test for checking the rated specifications, module replace-
ment and repair, firmware update, troubleshooting and fault elimination, and contains
mechanical drawings and spare part lists. The service manual is available for regis-
tered users on the global Rohde & Schwarz information system (GLORIS, https://
gloris.rohde-schwarz.com).

Do you know if the service manuals are available for end users too or only for some labs/services?

Is this random "noise" looking same on both CH1 and CH2? If it does, than it cannot be analog front end. It must be with ADC or after..

Well, that particular defect might not have to do anything with the calibration. Maybe vibration in transport exacerbated the problem, but probably it is manufacturing defect. If scope has no visible signs of mechanical damage, electronics could not be damaged in this way by cal facility. There are many occasions that scopes fall of the desk, are visibly completely broken but power up just fine and work. There was a guy here on EEVBLOG that repaired a Keysight 3000A scope that had car run over it in a parking.  He had problems finding pieces of the case, but scope worked fine.

Problem is most likely in ADC for those CH or in acquisition data pump/memory part for that ADC.
It is either IC defect (bonding defect for instance) or soldering..
If warranty is not there, careful disassembly and testing with cold/hot air or gentle tapping around the board might reveal
location.  In which case if it is soldering, it might be fixed by reflow.

I wouldn't go lawyer path. They will be more expensive than scope in just few hours.
Just get the "new" demo one and get insurance for it this time.

I don't know if R&S has extended warranty maintenance contracts like Keysight.
With Keysight they are actually good deal. Maybe ask them.

Once you have replacement working scope, you might try repair old one. If you succeed, you have another one.
But you would need to send it to calibration again to verify it's working OK. Or just perform performance verification yourself if you have equipment.

I will check tomorrow at the office.

I had the same idea, get a replacement, then try to repair the broken one I have and in case I succeed ask for a recalibration at R&S. I hate to throw away money even if my company pays

[2N3055]

I will check tomorrow at the office.

I had the same idea, get a replacement, then try to repair the broken one I have and in case I succeed ask for a recalibration at R&S. I hate to throw away money even if my company pays

If it is for work (and that is what I understood) you can't have something that you can't trust.
And being responsible with other's money is a sign of integrity ..
That is how it should be.

[simone_b]

I wouldn't go lawyer path. They will be more expensive than scope in just few hours.
Just get the "new" demo one and get insurance for it this time.

A lawyer will probably cost a bit, but for me it's more about penalizing bad business behavior than maximum profit. Consulting on whether you have a leg to stand on will be a few hundred at most.

Yes, I agree in principle, but you have to deal also with bureaucracy (internal company policies, involve other people, etc). What I can do is to ask my company to not make business again with that service company

[simone_b]

Nature of defect to me point more likely of a manufacturing defect by R&S.
There is no proof that calibration facility did anything wrong.
You cannot damage ADC or circuits after it simply from the outside.

It was simply spotted few months after calibration and presumed it was because of that.
It can be coincidence.

Maybe, if the scope was previously run in the lab that has high temperature variations during the day or if it was carried around on daily basis and exposed to vibration regularly,  it might have broken down during warranty...

We can't know.

Yes, that's the position of the service company too, as we can't know it is just a (weird) coincidence. From my side I can say that the oscilloscope has been always in my desk before. We will check terms&conditions we signed and in case the service company will not replace the oscilloscope (very likely) then the next time we will be more careful about what we sign and use another service (R&S)

[bayjelly]

Solid work. Thanks, Peter.

[nctnico]

For these kind of measurements you also need to make a set with the 20MHz bandwidth limit on. The SNR will be dominated by clock jitter at high samplerates.

[bayjelly]

If I find the time, I will also perform the same measurements on my (relatively old, by now) RTB2004. I'm curious whether that makes a difference. I understand the theory (or at least I hope so) and am well familiar with the Matlab functions used, so I can also think about the methodology when repeating it.

[2N3055]

Timebase and an amount of data is not really optimum to get good analysis and fair comparison.

By performing an analysis on very short interval you are effectively filtering out low frequencies. Periods longer than interval captured cannot exist in that sample, they appear as apparent slow DC drift and get removed in calculation.

Scopes do not have same distribution of noise across all frequencies... And different scope will have different distribution.

In that A.N. Agilent makes analysis on a 1 Mpts of data. With 5 GS/s that means they were at 20µs/div, making analysis on 200µs worth of data, more realistic view of scope input noise...

Also, to make it completely fair, data would have to be truncated to exactly the same (time) length from all scopes, despite the fact they might have different sample rates and horizontal time/div screens...

[Neurosurg]

It was funny for me watchiny polish video the first of vids that was able in internet about RTB2004, when lector tell that it is hard to say who will be used this scope, professionals or more rich beginners. The price is not properly adjust for the capibilities and features. 20k PLN in my conutry ok. 5$ for full version, for 20k PLN you can buy in our local auction site MSOX3104T without options. I is not nesecerrly to say with is better choice. Ok for fun and play with opt. drawn smile on the screen with math from elementary school fo e.g.
I decide to pay 3 times more for refusibed renew RTE1204 with MSO and ISO Certificate.
But for pro use buy scope is only the begining of the cost you must afford. Even RTO2000 comes with simple passive probes. Options probes siutable for what you are going to measure it is a lot of money....
And at the end why everybody was exited about 10-bit ADC, when is clearly write 10bit (ENOB ok. 7bit) for worse even in documentation of RTO2000 16bit HD instruction say the same... :/ I know that programable itis done that this do the difference, but hardware is the same. I have HMOo1102 and can set it either to 16bits.?
And the wores is the fact that scope that cost that price have no read-out interface. It means you can forgot about dediceted for example differential probes just when you open the box and realised that gold bnc's does not do the job. Looks good, but it is not a picture, it is anylasying device. This prove me that it is expensiv scope for home use or teaching. RTM3000 is something 180 round.
MSO Ports when you looking at them sems to be saying conect to me ATA disc cable hack option and tell who is the winner now..... hehhehe

RTE1000 relly do the job on  pro level just look at this:

[Neurosurg]

MDO3054 with i have, also have arbitrally AWG, Power Anylasys, Okno Bode Plot, but real hardware very good spectrum anylaser with bandwith in option up to 3GHz (or up to BW of scope) I have full, and it is someting that FFT from RTB2004 doesn;t beat, but enchenced FFT in RTE1000 is able to give a tool even more (i don;t know it) powerful?

From interesting phenomen which I read occurs not only in RTB2004, I decide to check my Tek MDO3054. 1mV gently beating - even with bnc - no gain.
Interesting is fact that is common. But few people with RTB2004 have no problem?

[arcitech]

I had an RTB arrive recently and just today had the opportunity to grab its cal cert for record keeping. I was a bit surprised that it was calibrated around 650 days before my order was placed. I have no cause for any actual concern (so far, at least).

It was interesting to see what they use for the RTB (plain-old factory) cal process:

• R&S NRP-Z91 power sensor
• Keithley 2601A System SourceMeter
• a trusty 34401A

I'd guess they dogfood the NGUs these days in the plant's cal lab...

[tautech]

I had an RTB arrive recently and just today had the opportunity to grab its cal cert for record keeping. I was a bit surprised that it was calibrated around 650 days before my order was placed. I have no cause for any actual concern (so far, at least).

It was interesting to see what they use for the RTB (plain-old factory) cal process:

• R&S NRP-Z91 power sensor
• Keithley 2601A System SourceMeter
• a trusty 34401A

I'd guess they dogfood the NGUs these days in the plant's cal lab...

Without a valid/current Cal cert I hope you got a nice discount on the list price.

[Martin72]

Question is what is a valid cal cert...
The fore-printed one sheet of paper from siglent for example surely not.
To have it valid you have to make it sure that the scope is calibrated from a lab totally independend from you(your work) and from the manufacturer.