EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[FrankBuss]

Can anyone see the comments below? They got deleted?

[urlhttp://i.imgur.com/FwMznX3.png][/url]

Alexander.

Looks like a strange G+/Youtube feature. There were 5 answers to an answer from the "fan" to my answer, and I can still see them in the G+ notification, but it is not visible in the Youtube video:

I don't see your comments either in the Youtube video. My guess is that they can delete the comments for their Youtube videos, but if you started a comment, it is still visible in your G+ account. So don't waste time commenting their videos.

[TheAmmoniacal]

Another crap article from a respected source: http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html

EEAtlanta in the comments (Batteroo themselves):

"Dave Jones graduated from Dramatic Arts School. The inventors of Batteriser are professors of electrical engineering. Regarding your post, Batteroo released a video demonstrating why you cannot use a power supply box to "debunk" the Batteriser. Batteries and constant power supply boxes behave very differently:
(... stupid vid here... Don't want to spam the forum with the YouTube page)

That Youtube page also has a video of the Batteriser tested on flashlights. Check it out if interested.
Thanks"

Dramatic Arts School, why did you put that on your LinkedIn 

[meeder]

Just out of curiosity I checked my Garmin GPSmap 62st to see at which voltage it cuts out.
I tested it with Eneloop NiMH batteries with the unit battery type set to NiMH.
The unit stopped working completely at 1.90V so that is 0.95V per cell.

I haven't tested it with alkalines but that is the next test.

[Halcyon]

Dramatic Arts School, why did you put that on your LinkedIn 

Why does it matter? It's only a matter of time when/if they release the Batteriser that Roohparvar and his "professors" will have egg on their face when it comes to light that Dave Jones from Dramatic Arts School was correct all along (well, derrr...). Whether they care to admit it or not, their customers certainly will.

[Fungus]

Why does it matter? It's only a matter of time when/if they release the Batteriser that Roohparvar and his "professors" will have egg on their face when it comes to light that Dave Jones from Dramatic Arts School was correct all along (well, derrr...).

Publicize it! Tell the world a dramatic arts student was smarter than Mr IQ.

[meeder]

Just out of curiosity I checked my Garmin GPSmap 62st to see at which voltage it cuts out.
I tested it with Eneloop NiMH batteries with the unit battery type set to NiMH.
The unit stopped working completely at 1.90V so that is 0.95V per cell.

I haven't tested it with alkalines but that is the next test.

Small update from the unit running with Alkaline batteries with the device set to Alkaline.
The message that the battery voltage was to low for backlight and sound was displayed at 2.27V. With NiMH batteries you will never get this message, probably because they can deliver higher currents.
The backlight doesn't turn off completely at that point, it just dims to about 50% brightness and the sound does turn off completely.
After the brightness is reduced the voltage got back up to 2.35V caused by the lower current draw.

[PA0PBZ]

With NiMH batteries you will never get this message, probably because they can deliver higher currents.

If I remember correctly part of the message is that you should use rechargable batteries if you don't want this to happen. It would be a bit weird to show this using NiMH...

[RFZ]

I'm pretty sure he just said that you don't take the area under the graph in a battery discharge plot, you have to take the whole area, above and below the graph? :/

Because he is right, regarding a constant current load. Your capacity is current*time, which is the integral over the rectangle he showed. It might not be what matters in most cases in reality, but it is totally correct.
Maybe because of that Dave often says mAh is not the best way to give the capacity of a battery, use mWh.

[lpickup]

Small update from the unit running with Alkaline batteries with the device set to Alkaline.
The message that the battery voltage was to low for backlight and sound was displayed at 2.27V. With NiMH batteries you will never get this message, probably because they can deliver higher currents.
The backlight doesn't turn off completely at that point, it just dims to about 50% brightness and the sound does turn off completely.
After the brightness is reduced the voltage got back up to 2.35V caused by the lower current draw.

What I don't get is this, and this could be a great example of how Batteriser could drastically REDUCE longevity (and not just because of the boost converter inefficiency).  In alkaline mode, the device "prematurely" dims the screen (even at 1/2 to 3/4 remaining battery on the on-screen-display).  Actually probably a prudent step to take to extend battery life.  Now we all suspect that Batteroo simply concluded the non-Batteriser test at this point and called the product "dead" (which it probably was not).

But what about the Batteriser case?  With the artificially high terminal voltage provided by the Batteriser, the unit should never dim the screen, and one would then expect the device to burn through the battery even faster than without the Batteriser.  You can see from their plots that when the screen is at full brightness, it pulls about 150-160mA and the dim screen pulls about 110-120mA.  If we assume they are pulling about 1600mAh total out of the battery (with the Batteriser), it looks like you'd get 1.5 hours @ 160mA (=240mAh) leaving another 11 or so hours @ 120mA with the dim screen.  So total of 13.5 hours without the Batteriser, 10 hours with.

Okay, I realize this is way oversimplifying and assumes constant current (which it's not) and eventually the device WILL legitimately reach the cut-out voltage, probably before the full 13.5 hours.  But still:  in the real world application of this device, it detects a "failing" battery and takes steps to extend battery life (different devices may slow down the CPU, etc.)  The Batteriser will completely defeat these measures and likely end up having unintended consequences of shortening overall life just for those reasons alone!

[EEVblog]

Dramatic Arts School, why did you put that on your LinkedIn 

Because it's, you know, funny.

[EEVblog]

What I don't get is this, and this could be a great example of how Batteriser could drastically REDUCE longevity (and not just because of the boost converter inefficiency).  In alkaline mode, the device "prematurely" dims the screen (even at 1/2 to 3/4 remaining battery on the on-screen-display).  Actually probably a prudent step to take to extend battery life.  Now we all suspect that Batteroo simply concluded the non-Batteriser test at this point and called the product "dead" (which it probably was not).

Can someone please just get one of these things and bust this right open?
It's easy, just time how long it works. If it's longer than the 2hrs they got when the screen dimmed and they implied it stopped working, then their video is embarrassingly wrong (which seems to be the case).
It's a Garmin Approach G3

[tree]

This might be worth trying since the batteriser hasn't been released yet.

Jay_Diddy_B put together a battery model which predicts discharge characteristics pretty well. Why doesn't someone take that model and implement it using a programmable power supply to see how long a device lasts. Then, using that model, power an "average" boost converter and see how long the product lasts. I think that will be a good relative comparison between a battery and a battery+batteriser.

[Mayo2017]

Curious to see if any of Batteriser's little quips here are true.
Note: This wasn't even on Batteriser's channel. They really, really don't like me.

[edy]

That's what makes this so interesting... You have a couple of brothers with apparently impressive CV's who have made billions for other companies  (FlexPower, Quantum, etc) using their incredibly high IQs, yet can't seem to put together a demo unit to send to some independent labs, even though they have a product launch in less than 3 months. They spout mostly confusing ideas that are prime for debunking in their videos...

So is their campaign and videos all a cover to raise publicity? Have they really come up with an ingenius idea since  not even Apple engineers knew how to make their iPhone charger smaller? Or have their careers fallen and they are looking for a rebound? Is it a purposeful sham?

This story is not just about electronics, although there is a lot to learn from the entire discussion... I'm really curious how this will play out, and the people behind it. This could make a good movie, it is getting dramatic! How do you reconcile those "massive" resumes and patents from the Roohparvar brothers with the farce that is Batteriser thus far? Or is this like the cold fusion labs, all deluded or missing something that should be obvious?

Why risk their "reputation" and teaching position? Has anyone done a real background investigation? I doubt that they are not the same people behind the patents and employed by who they claimed. Unless someone did an identity switch, which seems highly improbable given the attention given to this campaign. Then one has to keep asking, is Batteriser real and will it even be produced for a November release?

All this mystery and speculation and nail-biting suspense would go away if we just had 1 Batteriser to test. Much could be put to rest. I guess we just have to wait until November. They surely want to hit the shelves before Christmas peak shopping since these would be huge for battery-operated toys!

[EEVblog]

Or have their careers fallen and they are looking for a rebound?

Just the "next big thing".
Bob started Batteroo the same month he got fired as President and CEO of DigitalOptics corp.

[Halcyon]

That's what makes this so interesting... You have a couple of brothers with apparently impressive CV's who have made billions for other companies  (FlexPower, Quantum, etc) using their incredibly high IQs, yet can't seem to put together a demo unit to send to some independent labs, even though they have a product launch in less than 3 months. They spout mostly confusing ideas that are prime for debunking in their videos...

So is their campaign and videos all a cover to raise publicity? Have they really come up with an ingenius idea since  not even Apple engineers knew how to make their iPhone charger smaller? Or have their careers fallen and they are looking for a rebound? Is it a purposeful sham?

This story is not just about electronics, although there is a lot to learn from the entire discussion... I'm really curious how this will play out, and the people behind it. This could make a good movie, it is getting dramatic! How do you reconcile those "massive" resumes and patents from the Roohparvar brothers with the farce that is Batteriser thus far?

Perhaps they've just taken credit for someone else's homework in the past?

[Mayo2017]

It's not uncommon for executive bigwigs to have their name on a patent somewhere, even if they aren't the designer. "Hundreds of patents" my ass.

[EEVblog]

Looks like we now have a third Roohparvar working for them, now replying in the campaign comments.
https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=182102138

[Halcyon]

Looks like we now have a third Roohparvar working for them, now replying in the campaign comments.
https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=182102138

Can't view the link without an account. Screenshot?

[5ky]

What I don't get is this, and this could be a great example of how Batteriser could drastically REDUCE longevity (and not just because of the boost converter inefficiency).  In alkaline mode, the device "prematurely" dims the screen (even at 1/2 to 3/4 remaining battery on the on-screen-display).  Actually probably a prudent step to take to extend battery life.  Now we all suspect that Batteroo simply concluded the non-Batteriser test at this point and called the product "dead" (which it probably was not).

Can someone please just get one of these things and bust this right open?
It's easy, just time how long it works. If it's longer than the 2hrs they got when the screen dimmed and they implied it stopped working, then their video is embarrassingly wrong (which seems to be the case).
It's a Garmin Approach G3

Wednesday 

[LabSpokane]

What I don't get is this, and this could be a great example of how Batteriser could drastically REDUCE longevity (and not just because of the boost converter inefficiency).  In alkaline mode, the device "prematurely" dims the screen (even at 1/2 to 3/4 remaining battery on the on-screen-display).  Actually probably a prudent step to take to extend battery life.  Now we all suspect that Batteroo simply concluded the non-Batteriser test at this point and called the product "dead" (which it probably was not).

Can someone please just get one of these things and bust this right open?
It's easy, just time how long it works. If it's longer than the 2hrs they got when the screen dimmed and they implied it stopped working, then their video is embarrassingly wrong (which seems to be the case).
It's a Garmin Approach G3

Working on it.

[5ky]

What I don't get is this, and this could be a great example of how Batteriser could drastically REDUCE longevity (and not just because of the boost converter inefficiency).  In alkaline mode, the device "prematurely" dims the screen (even at 1/2 to 3/4 remaining battery on the on-screen-display).  Actually probably a prudent step to take to extend battery life.  Now we all suspect that Batteroo simply concluded the non-Batteriser test at this point and called the product "dead" (which it probably was not).

Can someone please just get one of these things and bust this right open?
It's easy, just time how long it works. If it's longer than the 2hrs they got when the screen dimmed and they implied it stopped working, then their video is embarrassingly wrong (which seems to be the case).
It's a Garmin Approach G3

Working on it.

Doh, did I just buy one for no reason? lol

I guess my boss likes to golf...

[amyk]

Please do post a clear picture of the screen showing the battery message, so it can be used alongside the screenshot of the Batteriser video.  Someone in either this thread or the other one found the string in the firmware and the message seems to match, but a picture would dispel any doubt.

Curious to see if any of Batteriser's little quips here are true.
Note: This wasn't even on Batteriser's channel. They really, really don't like me.

That's "Brad Jones", I'd guess. Using their not-so-unofficial account to make posts like that is really disturbing.

Nevertheless, the level of faith he displays in his idols (the Roohparvars) is also surprising.

[LabSpokane]

What I don't get is this, and this could be a great example of how Batteriser could drastically REDUCE longevity (and not just because of the boost converter inefficiency).  In alkaline mode, the device "prematurely" dims the screen (even at 1/2 to 3/4 remaining battery on the on-screen-display).  Actually probably a prudent step to take to extend battery life.  Now we all suspect that Batteroo simply concluded the non-Batteriser test at this point and called the product "dead" (which it probably was not).

Can someone please just get one of these things and bust this right open?
It's easy, just time how long it works. If it's longer than the 2hrs they got when the screen dimmed and they implied it stopped working, then their video is embarrassingly wrong (which seems to be the case).
It's a Garmin Approach G3

Working on it.

Doh, did I just buy one for no reason? lol

I guess my boss likes to golf...

No. Test it now. I'm bidding on one on eBay.

[EEVblog]

What I don't get is this, and this could be a great example of how Batteriser could drastically REDUCE longevity (and not just because of the boost converter inefficiency).  In alkaline mode, the device "prematurely" dims the screen (even at 1/2 to 3/4 remaining battery on the on-screen-display).  Actually probably a prudent step to take to extend battery life.  Now we all suspect that Batteroo simply concluded the non-Batteriser test at this point and called the product "dead" (which it probably was not).

Can someone please just get one of these things and bust this right open?
It's easy, just time how long it works. If it's longer than the 2hrs they got when the screen dimmed and they implied it stopped working, then their video is embarrassingly wrong (which seems to be the case).
It's a Garmin Approach G3

Working on it.

The other problem with this firmware "feature" is that apparently it will force the backlight off with Alkalines, so that won't be a fair comparison with the Batteriser in terms of total operational time.
Still will give a useful measure though.
This might be able to be got around by forcing another battery type.
Or what I would do is perhaps measure the current raw with backlight on and off to see how much the backlight takes, and when the message pops up and the backlight turns off, switch on a dummy load to take the equivalent backlight current. Keep that load in place until the GPS dies. Then you'll have a true operational time comparison with the Batteriser.

Of course, just proving the GPS continues to work after the message pops up proves Batteroo's video to be wrong. Because they aren't taking into account a firmware feature of the product that is designed to protect the battery life on Alkaline batteries.
In fact, I fail to see why they needed the backlight robotic finger to begin with, can't the GPS simply stay switched on like you'd normally use it?