EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[EEVblog]

If the original design could only do 500ma at 1.5volt output... what input voltage would it have needed to even do the 500ma? Obviously, it wouldn't still do 500ma down to whatever voltage they claimed the butteriser to work down to...

Of course not, it's going to have a performance envelope with every other DC-DC converter.
500mA out @ 1.5V requires 1.25A from the battery at the lowest 0.6V input voltage it can work down to, not including converter losses that will likely be 20% at least at that current, so 1.5A.
And if you think a AA can sustain that current at 0.6V you are delusional.
Batteriser haven't even got the most rudimentary clue about battery product design. They are driven by this unobtainable utopian goal that you can magically get power out over the full performance envelope.
This is why they will never release the efficiency curves, let alone the efficiency curves over the full current performance envelope, because they know the results will be shit and they have to admit the Batteriser is nothing more than a niche use product.

[g.lewarne]

I am curious to know what sort of effect on ESR and battery chemistry there will be when multiple butterisers are used in series, each effectively using the batteries as a heatsink.  Sure, at low power the heat generation will be marginal, but on higher loads surely there will be a significant temperature increase? Wont this just make things even worse?

and how do series connect dc-dc converters even behave in terms of voltage rail noise?  2 in series probably isn't much, but...... 4? .....6?  or even the 8 in my RC car?

[g.lewarne]

I am curious to know what sort of effect on ESR and battery chemistry there will be when multiple butterisers are used in series, each effectively using the batteries as a heatsink.  Sure, at low power the heat generation will be marginal, but on higher loads surely there will be a significant temperature increase? Wont this just make things even worse?

and how do series connect dc-dc converters even behave in terms of voltage rail noise?  2 in series probably isn't much, but...... 4? .....6?  or even the 8 in my RC car?

I'm sorry for the noobish questions



edit....whoa, what happened then. the forum saved my edit as a new post.  feel free to delete.

[Godzil]

I am curious to know what sort of effect on ESR and battery chemistry there will be when multiple butterisers are used in series, each effectively using the batteries as a heatsink.  Sure, at low power the heat generation will be marginal, but on higher loads surely there will be a significant temperature increase? Wont this just make things even worse?

and how do series connect dc-dc converters even behave in terms of voltage rail noise?  2 in series probably isn't much, but...... 4? .....6?  or even the 8 in my RC car?

I'm sorry for the noobish questions



edit....whoa, what happened then. the forum saved my edit as a new post.  feel free to delete.

Seriously, it's not a bad question at all, and I think we already discuss about that here in this same topic, but the idea is that it may fail miserably, with the noise generated & co.
But I don't know if some people ever done something like that before: putting DC2DC converter in series, so it maybe worth to try for science..

[g.lewarne]

Seriously, it's not a bad question at all, and I think we already discuss about that here in this same topic, but the idea is that it may fail miserably, with the noise generated & co.
But I don't know if some people ever done something like that before: putting DC2DC converter in series, so it maybe worth to try for science..

honestly, I find it difficult to follow this 222page thread.  Dyslexia is my enemy here.  Takes me a long time to read things and sort out the jumbled mess my brain sees.  Ill try searching again for the answer to my questions

[SeanB]

Well, the heat generated in the ESR of the cell will help activate the chemical reactions in the cell, allowing it to deliver more power up to a point. The failure will be when the cell reaches 70C internal temperature, which will melt the internal plastic separators and cause the cell to short out. Will not be spectacular like a lithium cell, but will dump the hot alkaline electrolyte and depolariser in a stream of hot liquid and steam, though the batteriser PCB on the cell will survive the lower cell batteriser will not.

[f4eru]

Oh!
Batteriser has "unexpected" delays ?
I'm so SHOCKED by that news....

Now I can go in rage and put to trash the 30 empty AA cells that I kept only to suck out the 800% of marketing wank ))

[Fungus]

Sure, at low power the heat generation will be marginal, but on higher loads surely there will be a significant temperature increase?

It all depends on how efficient the Batteriser is.

Assuming they're not lying on the GPS test then Batteriser is close to 90% efficient at GPS current levels.

How does that scale at higher currents? That's the only thing we don't know about the Batteriser. It's not impossible that it will scale to 1 Amp and maintain a reasonable efficiency - other people make chips can do that.

At 1A current your batteries are going to get quite warm with or without the Batterizer, so... 

[Halcyon]

edit....whoa, what happened then. the forum saved my edit as a new post.  feel free to delete.

You sure you didn't click "Quote" instead of "Edit". I do it ALL the time. You can also delete your own posts.

[Jay_Diddy_B]

Hi Group,

Maximum Power Point Measurement - Duracell AA

I have just finished an experiment to measure the Maximum Power Point of a Duracell AA cell.

Procedure

A HP6060A electronic load and HP3478A DMM were controlled using HPIB.

The cell was discharged using a constant current of 200mA for 30 minutes, 100 mAh.

Then the load was switched to Constant Resistance mode and the load resistance was stepped from 1 Ohm to 0.2 Ohms in 50m Ohm steps.

After the sweep to determine the maximum power, the load was returned to constant current. Then the cycle was repeated until the battery was depleted.

The cell voltage and current was measured at each step. The load power was calculated. The results were stored in a CSV file for analysis.


Maximum Power Point Results



This graph shows the maximum power that can be extracted from the cell at each step. The horizontal axis is the load resistance required to extract that power.

This is the absolute maximum power that can be extracted.

So to get 1.5V at 1A the battery must have been discharged by less than 300mAh (which is about 15%)

It doesn't matter what the Batteriser guys do, they can not exceed the power available from this set of curves.

This graph shows what is happening during a single MPPT sweep, this is after the cell was discharged by 200 mAh:



To get 1.5W you need draw about 2.2A from 0.7V, and at this point 1.5W will dissipated in the cell.


Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

[AmmoJammo]

The numbers of backers on the campaign has gone down...

[SL4P]

Batteriser - the perfect Christmas gift for creationists and over-unity followers.
Order now, you should receive yours in time (the day after the apocalypse).

[ccs46]

It's now the #9 Gadget in CNN's top 36 gadgets of the year...
http://money.cnn.com/gallery/technology/2015/11/24/coolest-gadgets-2015/9.html

[Delta]

It's now the #9 Gadget in CNN's top 36 gadgets of the year...
http://money.cnn.com/gallery/technology/2015/11/24/coolest-gadgets-2015/9.html

FFS.  Does no media outlet bother to do even the slightest bit of fact checking?
I thought CNN were a proper news outfit, yet they state as fact that AA batteries have 80% energy remaining when they stop working. Arrrghhhh!

[ccs46]

It's now the #9 Gadget in CNN's top 36 gadgets of the year...
http://money.cnn.com/gallery/technology/2015/11/24/coolest-gadgets-2015/9.html

FFS.  Does no media outlet bother to do even the slightest bit of fact checking?
I thought CNN were a proper news outfit, yet they state as fact that AA batteries have 80% energy remaining when they stop working. Arrrghhhh!

Something gives me the feeling that Batteroo paid them...

[GNU_Ninja]

It's now the #9 Gadget in CNN's top 36 gadgets of the year...
http://money.cnn.com/gallery/technology/2015/11/24/coolest-gadgets-2015/9.html

The comments are pretty scathing 

[timofonic]

It's now the #9 Gadget in CNN's top 36 gadgets of the year...
http://money.cnn.com/gallery/technology/2015/11/24/coolest-gadgets-2015/9.html

FFS.  Does no media outlet bother to do even the slightest bit of fact checking?
I thought CNN were a proper news outfit, yet they state as fact that AA batteries have 80% energy remaining when they stop working. Arrrghhhh!

Something gives me the feeling that Batteroo paid them...

I always suppose that. I see most media incomes are by advertising, disguised as news or not.

Delta: Do you still trust in media? You have a really bad problem, I into even worse than all the issues Batteriser victims are going to have into one person. Please be think a lot more critical even if gives you problems at short place, you'll find this world is full of lies and stupidity!

[JoeO]

It's now the #9 Gadget in CNN's top 36 gadgets of the year...
http://money.cnn.com/gallery/technology/2015/11/24/coolest-gadgets-2015/9.html

FFS.  Does no media outlet bother to do even the slightest bit of fact checking?
I thought CNN were a proper news outfit, yet they state as fact that AA batteries have 80% energy remaining when they stop working. Arrrghhhh!

CNN is not a good news outlet.  They are on par with the Daily Mail.

[ccs46]

I trust what the media say with a grain of salt. A buddy of mine pointed the ad out to me. I just had to share how desprate they are getting! xD

[SeanB]

CNN Chicken Noodle News. Only good thing was the first Gulf war coverage, at least for us in the same time zone, it made for a good few interesting tea times and lunchtime viewing, mostly comparing how the systems worked, or just how badly some pilots were at hitting a static target.

[Kjelt]

CNN Chicken Noodle News. Only good thing was the first Gulf war coverage, at least for us in the same time zone, it made for a good few interesting tea times and lunchtime viewing, mostly comparing how the systems worked, or just how badly some pilots were at hitting a static target.

What a disgusting comment, interesting tea time while thousands of people are getting killed 

[SeanB]

CNN Chicken Noodle News. Only good thing was the first Gulf war coverage, at least for us in the same time zone, it made for a good few interesting tea times and lunchtime viewing, mostly comparing how the systems worked, or just how badly some pilots were at hitting a static target.

What a disgusting comment, interesting tea time while thousands of people are getting killed 

Military, unlike the Dutch we actually did have a war on at the time. Only thing we were grateful for was that SA has no oil fields, so we are safe from US invasion.  I worked next door to the plant that supplied Saddam with some of his weapons, and those worryingly are still mostly unaccounted for, along with a lot of the money.

[RFZ]

Just got an email from the batteriser team

(...) At this time, we have encountered a slight delay relating to the manufacturing of the Batteriser's integrated circuit (IC).

Our earlier proof of concept prototype IC could efficiently deliver 500 milliamps of steady state current. However, as many applications need higher current driving capabilities, we modified our Integrated Circuit (IC) design to make it capable of the higher level of current driving capability. We expected our final IC to be ready and out of the fabrication facility (FAB) over a month ago. However, due to a drift in process parameters, the IC is still being worked on by our engineering team, in order to be ready for mass production. Fortunately, we have been working diligently with the FAB to address and fix the issues responsible for this delay, and we are anxiously waiting to receive our final IC in the coming weeks. We are committed to producing your Batterisers with the highest quality standards. (...)

So, long story short: Their prototype can only deliver 500mA and and they don't have an IC ready for production

[FrankBuss]

Just got an email from the batteriser team

Nice, a backer. When you get one, please measure the efficiency for different battery voltages and currents, and how long devices run with and without it. And of course, use only batteries, because Dr. Bob Roohparvar told us you can't use a PSU to do these tests Or send me one, I can do this, too.

[station240]

Just got an email from the batteriser team

So, long story short: Their prototype can only deliver 500mA and and they don't have an IC ready for production

Easy solution, just replace the silicon die with a copper slug, no more limited current, and most of their customers won't notice anyway.