EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[Godzil]

...There are unfortunately some device that badly work like this, but *SOME* not all.

The false assumption is that these badly engineered 'some' devices will work better with batteriser.

They would at some point, but maybe at the price of halving the battery life
(and anyway, a batteriser would be better with what I proposed earlier in this topic, the current version is just useless, and even my proposal, is I think it's still useless)

[amyk]

How did they get your name?

Seriously? Do you think only us here on the forums know his name?

http://www.eevblog.com/about/

[edy]

How did they get your name?

Seriously? Do you think only us here on the forums know his name?

http://www.eevblog.com/about/

I know Dave is quite famous. My point is, how many times does Dave get approached by general-interest newspapers to talk about his Rants and Raves about stuff he's done many videos about in the past. Why now? Why this? I'm still curious how this newspaper found out about this entire Batteriser debate. If they say "oh we've been watching Dave for years and finally decided this was a good story"... Or did they get "fed" the name and by who? Did someone point the newspaper in this direction? Just wondering...

[Delta]

Do the newspaper thing Dave.  Don't let the all-media-are-out-to-get-us posse put you off. 😃

[Fungus]

It is NOT true that people can expect Batteriser to extend their battery life (see previous point).

These basic premises are wrong.

I never say anything about that, because I completely agree with the fact that the basic premises are wrong. (apart from the fact that most of the people that backed this product though that they would extent their battery life with it)

I'm just saying that this specific video has been better made than all the other, there are some sort of fact, be told in a really ambiguous way ("is wrong and at least misleading")

If people aren't convinced by anti-batteriser videos yet then they won't be convinced by any new tech-heavy ones.

The correct way to respond to this one is with a 3-minute, soundbite-heavy video.

Storyboard
"Only 20% of battery used used? Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope...."  (video of somebody going from device to device to device with a multimeter, nb. no explanation given, just say "nope, nope, nope...")

"GPS only lasts 2 hours? Nope. Current spikes shutting it down? Nope." (video of 5ky's GPS machine still ticking after 16.5 hours, with graph of time and current spikes)

"Calling us 'amateur teenage bloggers' with no real experience? LOL!" (video of Batteroo's engineer's workbench with price labels above their $60 eBay power supply, unused soldering irons, $70 Hantek current logger, etc. Cut to obviously non-teenage Dave, Dave's hardware with price labels above it, 5ky's hardware with price labels above it, etc. "Who's the amateurs here?")

"Measuring batteries open circuit, pretending they're still good then sticking them up a monkey's butt? Definitely!" (video of Batteroo measuring batteries, cut to video of Dave measuring dead batteries at 1.25V open circuit, his voltage recover curves, sticking them in his monkey and watching it run even when they were at 0.5V under load)

"Batteroo constantly changing their story to match facts as they are revealed to them? Priceless!" (montage of snapshots of all the edits and story-reversals we've got archived from their online comments)

"Threatening a 13-year-old blogger, attacking people in comments, paying Vietnamese to dislike youtube videos? Truly pathetic..." (montage of screenshots showing all that stuff)

[Fungus]

Do the newspaper thing Dave.  Don't let the all-media-are-out-to-get-us posse put you off. 😃

Flip a coin.

[kalleboo]

Straw poll....

Everyone I know who has been quoted in the media has been misquoted.

You can pick what you say extremely carefully but they can still make it seem like you said the opposite. It doesn't even have to be malicious, but you know as they say, those who can't do, write about it for a newspaper.

I vote don't bother. I guess it could get you some extra views though...

[kalleboo]

Somehow, butteriser, conned another IGG campaign into advertising for them...

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/aftershokz-trekz-bone-conduction-headphones#/updates

 

Well that's quite disappointing. I have some older Aftershokz bluetooth headphones. They work well. Definitely not some alibaba knockoff or scam.

[drussell]

That bone conduction headphone idea has been around since the late 1970s...  They were a bit of a fad for a time and they sold quite a few but most people don't remember them now.  Wearable tech had it's first fad phase, now someone has revived the Bone Fone idea of late....  but it fizzled in the early 1980s and it probably won't last now either.  (But someone will probably make a bit of a tidy profit from selling the latest pet rock, though, etc...  What's old is new again once most people forget that it was there before!  )  Just google Bone Fone and you should be able to find all the information you need from the late '70s into the '80s... Popular XX magazine articles, etc. etc.

Dave, as for doing the article about the Batterizer brouhaha, personally I think I would do it.  The mass media ran with the original batterizer story (as usual) without a second thought or much critical thinking.  It would be very nice for them to do a bit of an informed article on it instead and I'm sure you could provide some solid technical advice.

Yes, you should be a bit wary, I suppose, but someone needs to help them and provide the technical information that a typical reporter (even most "tech reporters") will be sorely lacking.  Your skills fit the bill...

Hmm... Speaking of "Pet Rocks", I don't think I've seen anyone selling those for a while....
Perhaps we should get together and start an IndieGoGo campaign! 

[Muttley Snickers]

I Googled the term fraudulent youtube dislikes earlier on today and it revealed a couple of things in my search bearing in mind that your search may display a different result, Daves current EEVBlab Dislikes video was forth on the list and above that was an article in the guardian newspaper about fake view numbers on some youtube channels whereby youtube themselves declared that they will be more vigilant in regards to spammers, dated 5th February 2014.

Also I think that any relevant information in regards to the dislikes issue should be collated and posted on that particular EEVBlab thread so that if the media does follow it up and in turn the general public then they can get the exact information from there, if they then want to get an idea of some of the other outrageous tactics used then a link back here should do the trick.

[dexters_lab]

did anyone notice they added a new perk when they mentioned the Aftershokz promo?

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x/contributions/new/#/contribute?perk_amt=35&perk_id=3121246

basically the same as the 8xAA + 8xAAA perk for $40 but with the price reduced by $5 to $35.00

as of today:
Total Sales   $273,585.00
Total Batterisers   109,096
Average Batteriser Selling Price   $2.508

[FrankBuss]

... Should I dare be involved with Fairfax media?
Straw poll....

I was twice in the media, and 2 times, I didn't recognise any of the sentences they wrote, and didn't understand what 'the guy' was telling.
Wouldn't do it again without full revision rights.
It's my story, they have the right to type it, not to change it.

I wrote some articles for a big German computer magazine some time ago (Java 3D programming etc.) and recently a Bitcoin article for the 2600 magazine. It was always published nearly without changes, but I guess a technical or hacker magazine is different than for example a general newspaper.

Who is the audience? Dave, maybe give them an interesting story with all the personal backgrounds, like the threatening from Batteriser to the Youtube commenter kid, or this long thread and the how much effort others spent to debunk it, too, and how all this probably led to buying the votes (but I guess it can't be proved that they did it). But write it in a way that non-technical people understand it. Just don't forget to mention your EEVblog multiple times ("watch EEVblog x for more information about this detail, EEVblog y for basics about this, ...") for everyone who wants to know the technical details.

[GNU_Ninja]

I Googled the term fraudulent youtube dislikes earlier on today and it revealed a couple of things in my search bearing in mind that your search may display a different result, Daves current EEVBlab Dislikes video was forth on the list and above that was an article in the guardian newspaper about fake view numbers on some youtube channels whereby youtube themselves declared that they will be more vigilant in regards to spammers, dated 5th February 2014.

Also I think that any relevant information in regards to the dislikes issue should be collated and posted on that particular EEVBlab thread so that if the media does follow it up and in turn the general public then they can get the exact information from there, if they then want to get an idea of some of the other outrageous tactics used then a link back here should do the trick.

This:  http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/feb/05/youtube-fake-views-counts-google 

[Galenbo]

I was twice in the media, and 2 times, I didn't recognise any of the sentences they wrote, and didn't understand what 'the guy' was telling.
Wouldn't do it again without full revision rights.
It's my story, they have the right to type it, not to change it.

I wrote some articles for a big German computer magazine some time ago ... It was always published nearly without changes, but I guess a technical or hacker magazine is different than for example a general newspaper...

Ok, you wrote ready-to-consume articles, that's completely different. I did that for some low-number magasines too, they also nearly took it over entirely.

I was talking about an interview-style appearance in the media, Q and A, where they mix it themselves with other data and video parts, and do the editing afterwards.
Be sure their story is ready, their what-does-our-audience-want-to-hear study is done, let's hope he fits into that.

[NoItAint]

I've been approached by the SMH/Age newspaper tech section (Australia) to do a story on the Batteriser Dislikes. Should I dare be involved with Fairfax media?
Straw poll....

I'd like to see this.  Nothing wrong with seeing some science and reasoning in the press.  You've got no agenda, just facts.  It'll help make the public more aware that science works!

[Nerull]

DAVE, be careful!     Call me paranoid, but this may be a set up. How did they get your name?

How did they get the name of a popular blogger who blogs under his real name? Seriously?

[lpickup]

Everyone I know who has been quoted in the media has been misquoted.

Well I'm sure we all know that statistically these anecdotal stories of whether the media treats sources fairly or not mean absolutely nothing...however, I'll just add, to balance things out a bit, I was "quoted" in an article about a subject that I am passionate about (and has a fairly large and vocal naysayer community against it: electric vehicles), and I will say that I was "misquoted", however I feel that the author SIGNIFICANTLY improved my words.  When I read the article I knew I had been misquoted because there is no way I could have been that eloquent.

So I suppose it comes down what you think their angle is and whether they might really be sympathetic to Batteroo or Youtube dislike companies, or whatever you think the article is about now.  If it's the Youtube thing, you're probably pretty safe, as it would be hard to believe that anyone could be sympathetic to people that want to defraud Youtube likes, and the newspaper will know that too and if only for the interest of making their readers happy, will put someone like Dave in a favorable light.  The Batteriser angle could go either way.  There are plenty of people that WANT to believe there is a magical device that could spell ruin for Big Battery.  But there are also a large number of people that would love to hear about scammers and how they were defeated.

What I like about Dave's approach so far is that he's stuck to the facts, and even stopped short of attacking Batteroo directly, but rather stuck to educating us on the right and wrong way to do these things.  I suspect that Dave can probably handle it well enough to avoid looking silly.

On the other hand, I honestly don't see what more they would really need that Dave hasn't already outlined in his videos.  If they basically want to pull information from that and want some background biographical information or photo, then I don't see the harm in it.  But if they try to get him to re-explain any of the technical material (in a possible attempt to entrap him somehow), I would just refer to the video for all the technical details.
 

[drussell]

But if they try to get him to re-explain any of the technical material (in a possible attempt to entrap him somehow), I would just refer to the video for all the technical details.

I'm not so sure about that...  Would you really want them (who are probably not as technically-minded) to be trying to use your technical information without at least verifying their understanding of it with you?  I would think you'd want to do at least that, even if you don't provide any direct quotes, write any material for them or even be mentioned in any way in the actual article.

Dave's videos do a pretty good job of explaining everything but remember that many people do not have any technical background compared to EEVBLOG viewers and those on this forum even though we may sometimes forget that it may not be nearly as obvious to the average reader/viewer/etc.

Just my $.0216 AUD

(Sorry, currency conversion from Canada, you know, eh?) 

[Barny]

Hey. I'm an machine fitter with an a non-english mother tongue and understand whats Dave talking about.

But youre right.
The media - SI unit of distance is soccer field and the media - SI unit for weight is cars   

[TheAmmoniacal]

New update on their indiegogo campaign:

We take input from our contributors seriously, and we need your help! We've put together a survey to learn what types of people are most interested in Batteriser and what products you're most interested in using the Batteriser with. The information you provide will be essential to us as we prepare for our retail launch.

Desperate to optimize the efficiency appropriately so the launch will be less of a total failure?

[jippie]

New update on their indiegogo campaign:

We take input from our contributors seriously, and we need your help! We've put together a survey to learn what types of people are most interested in Batteriser and what products you're most interested in using the Batteriser with. The information you provide will be essential to us as we prepare for our retail launch.

Desperate to optimize the efficiency appropriately so the launch will be less of a total failure?

Isn't "what products you're most interested in using the Batteriser with" a question you want answered before you design the device, rather than after it's been potentially sold to thousands users?

[PeterL]

The story they're looking at here, presumably, is the manipulation of social media by individuals or corporate entities. Such as buying likes or dislikes on YouTube. Go for it. 

Actually, it seems to be an article on the Batteriser debunking in general:

We'd like to run a piece on your take-down of the Batterizer, and the company's subsequent response (rumours it bought dislikes for your page, quietly changed its claims etc).

For what it's worth, here's my opinion:

What got me annoyed about this project in the first place was the fact that the (internet)media just eagerly lent themselves to bring the great news about this new 'great invention'. They probably thought: "If this becomes something big, let us be the ones who brought it first. And if it's not big, well better luck next time". But what they failed to do is fact-checking. And personally I think that was very, very amateurish journalism.
This all was brought in the first place by media which gets paid only by advertisers and bringers of the news, but not by news-consumers.

A proper journalist would probably just have ignored this project, or written down the opinion of independent specialist.

And if we had only learned about this project after the igg-campaign had started, things would be completely different now. Chances are we (Dave) wouldn't even have picked it up.

But now this whole thing has become quite a mayhem, and there is a story in it with an important role for Dave: It's basically Dave and his global fan-base against professors in silicon valley. I can imagine that if you're a journalist from Sydney you want to write this down.

Now to decide if you should do this, I think Dave that is something you have to decide yourself. It will sure piss off Batteroo, they (or their fan) will probably accuse you of seeking the media. OTOH it will give some extra exposure to batteriser too.

Also it might bring you more fame in your home town. I mean it seems that even people in your building don't have any idea who you are or what you do. This is could change if the article is well written, and well read.

And of course keep it to the facts, and let people draw their own conclusions from it. But that is something you already do, so I don't see a danger in it.

[jancumps]

Oh dear, Batteriser aren't content with flogging their own stuff, but are now flogging others:
They sent a backer email update plugging this campaign:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/aftershokz-trekz-bone-conduction-headphones#/story

Because our team dug the Trekz Titanium™ headphones so much, we coaxed the good folks at AfterShokz into putting together a special package just for our community. How cool is that?! Here’s the deal: all Batteriser backers can now access AfterShokz’s ShokzStar Special Edition Perk for only $99 (even though it’s listed at $129!). That means you get (1) Trekz Titanium™, (1) activity belt and (1) limited edition t-shirt for nearly 30% less than everyone else!

Tacky.

they "exchanged" support, those 'cheap shitty chinese already manufactured and ready to buy on aliexpress headphones' IGG campain posted same BS about Buttsexizer on their site.

The story they're looking at here, presumably, is the manipulation of social media by individuals or corporate entities. Such as buying likes or dislikes on YouTube. Go for it. 

Actually, it seems to be an article on the Batteriser debunking in general:

We'd like to run a piece on your take-down of the Batterizer, and the company's subsequent response (rumours it bought dislikes for your page, quietly changed its claims etc).

Nice. Its AU outfit so its bloody unlikely they would throw fellow Austrian under the bus. As long as they let you authorize it its cool.

I don't really see why this interview shouldn't happen. They're asking to talk about the reasoning behind the debunking video, and on the darker areas of social media.
Dave has a story on why he reacted on the batteriser claim based on EE principles (the first ask on the take-down part), and he can show what happened on his channel (the views vs dislikes vs country part).
He doesn't have to relate that to batteriser themselves - just like in the comments here; it's always been related to the fan page.

If press in Australia is like press in Belgium, it's going to be a fair analysis.

edit: I'm not a big fan of interviewees authorizing an article. I believe in journalists. But that's another story.

[Macman]

New update on their indiegogo campaign:

We take input from our contributors seriously, and we need your help! We've put together a survey to learn what types of people are most interested in Batteriser and what products you're most interested in using the Batteriser with. The information you provide will be essential to us as we prepare for our retail launch.

Desperate to optimize the efficiency appropriately so the launch will be less of a total failure?

I saw that earlier. It made me smile when I was the survey was being done by SurveyMonkey.

[McBryce]

I saw that earlier. It made me smile when I was the survey was being done by SurveyMonkey.

So we've gone from monkey-probing to a probing monkey?

McBryce.