EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[adprom]

Well done Dave :-)

My favourite bit is: "Batteroo is none too pleased at the negative attention, and told Fairfax Media its legal team was "looking at" potential action against Jones." 

Any half-decent solicitor wouldn't touch it with a barge pole, let alone trying to sue someone in another country based on a case which has no reasonable prospect of even getting off the ground. Even Judge Judy would laugh at Batteroo. Any such case has "costs awarded" written all over it.

Have to love trigger happy people from the US who assume the rest of the world uses the same legal system as them. Should they take legal action in Aus, they could well be hit with costs in this sort of case. Interestingly, Dallas Buyers Club found this out the hard way as well.

Assume they can be litigous just like in the US with no consequence. I would love to seem them try.

A lot of noise with not much substance from Batteriser. It is unfortunate when facts get in the way of their marketing.

[EEVblog]

Have to love trigger happy people from the US who assume the rest of the world uses the same legal system as them. Should they take legal action in Aus, they could well be hit with costs in this sort of case. Interestingly, Dallas Buyers Club found this out the hard way as well.
Assume they can be litigous just like in the US with no consequence. I would love to seem them try.

Perhaps they'd like to sue the Sydney Morning Herald too for comparing their product with longer lasting sex ads 
I think Bob underestimated the pluckiness of journalist Hannah Francis actually going to to the trouble to find and talk to several university experts, who, *SPOLIER*, all agree that the Batteriser claims are misleading.  to quality journalism.
I bet he thought it would be another marketing puff piece for them.

[Delta]

Ha ha ha! That's even better!
Now you can write a musical about it

Actually, it's not a complete fabrication, I did a short course at NIDA. They told me I was the 2nd worst actor they have ever seen.
Perhaps I should add some other joke qualifications on there, any suggestions?

"expressive poetry"
"sheep psychology"
"male bovine excretion mechanisms"

[adprom]

Have to love trigger happy people from the US who assume the rest of the world uses the same legal system as them. Should they take legal action in Aus, they could well be hit with costs in this sort of case. Interestingly, Dallas Buyers Club found this out the hard way as well.
Assume they can be litigous just like in the US with no consequence. I would love to seem them try.

Perhaps they'd like to sue the Sydney Morning Herald too for comparing their product with longer lasting sex ads 
I think Bob underestimated the pluckiness of journalist Hannah Francis actually going to to the trouble to find and talk to several university experts, who, *SPOLIER*, all agree that the Batteriser claims are misleading.  to quality journalism.
I bet he thought it would be another marketing puff piece for them.

If you read his comments - I am sure you are correct that he thought it would be a supportive piece!

I found the article refreshingly good journalism.

No doubt batteriser will claim (if they comment at all) that the article is biased and unbalanced as if pseudoscience deserves equal amount of space as actual science, engineering and logic.

I'd love to see them go the legal route down here. Of course they won't - but they seem to think that idle threats actually work here where we have a functional legal system.

[AmmoJammo]

I didn't read the FCC report, I really just looked at the pictures, but the frequency emissions appear to have been taken at a distance of 3 metres?

So what happens when its a matter of centimetres from the device its installed in?

[Godzil]

Roohparvar went on to paraphrase Gandhi – "First they will ignore you; then they will laugh at you; then they will fight you; then you will win" – and his first punch in that perceived fight was to discredit Jones for having no formal electrical engineering qualifications, only a degree in performing arts from Australia's National Institute of Dramatic Arts.

Nobody obviously bothered to fact check that 
Heads up Dr Bob, I don't have a degree in performing arts from NIDA. It's in my linkedIn profile as a joke 

And I strongly doubt that at least Thales and Atlium would hire someone that has only such a degree

And, I find you quite good in front of a camera! And you do a lot of dramatic video, look at the video about that poor Samsung LCD TV, you kept us in suspence with that! Especially when this poor thing gets injured by the evil ReflowOven 


And yes sorry, the quote I did a few pages ago about "the man itself" it was about the sy-nergy77 one, not one of the batteroo folks (even if this guys seems to be a good friend with "Batter-raiser FAN Page"

[Fungus]

EDN put out another article about batteriser today: http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/brians-brain/4440366/The-Batteriser--defenders-and-detractors

The article says nothing new unfortunately and just argues the same points that have been debunked since the beginning

Only batteroo was given a voice?

[Godzil]

164 pages on this battered-poo and still going strong ..

Yeahh.. powerd  by The Batteriser it wount stop before it reaches 800 pages! 

Hey!
The Batteriser would make a really good name for an horror movie!

[GNU_Ninja]

Hey!
The Batteriser would make a really good name for an horror movie!

Or a Fish & Chip shop 

[Fungus]

Hey!
The Batteriser would make a really good name for an horror movie!

Or a Fish & Chip shop 

I wonder if Batteroo will lend us their batter holder (the one they mention in their UL test).

[amyk]

1.3A @ 1.5V with 0.5V in (1.95W) means the input is going to be at 3.9A with 100% efficiency, in reality more than that. They'll need a peak switch current of at least ~5A, ditto for the inductor.

[f4eru]

I see it has a lot going on around 900 MHz, but "Highest Intentionally Generated Frequency is 1.5MHz". Someone else explain this?

- Fast switching of the power transistors inside the chip.
- decoupling caps in the inductive frequency region
- The length of the wires and of the device makes a good antenna gor 900 MHz

Basically it creates a lot of harmonics, but the decoupling "holes" and the antenna (also called "wires") select some of them...

Hmm.. This is actually plausible. Startup guys can outdo the big hitters sometimes provided they do things right.

Yes it's possible.
But cutting edge DC/DC converter chips with integrated MOS with a very low Vgsth, low leakage, very low quiescent current, etcetc....
This means a lot of R&D at the silicon process level and at the chip design, which cannot be done for a few ten thousand pieces... (at even less so if your product needs to be dirt cheap.)

[ozwolf]

http://batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Batteriser_Report_FCC.pdf

 

There just are not enough  's to describe this. Yup, the AA version of the Batteriser "passed" FCC compliance testing ...

... at a fixed current draw of 1.5 mA.

Is this a joke?!  One fixed current draw?  The Apple keyboard and trackpad draw 5-7mA in normal operation and over 50mA peak. The beloved "golf GPS" runs at least 100X of that. Could Batteroo be afraid it might not pass when actually pushing the converter at a realistic level?!

Per the FCC, the device must be tested AS IT WILL BE USED.  What device in all these claims of Batteroo idles along at a fixed 1.5mA!?

Did anyone notice that the Equipment Under Test (EUT) is Serial Number 1 (see page 5 of report)?

Surely a valid test would be conducted on a sample size greater than the first (and possibly only) device?

Ozwolf

[Godzil]

Bah you could put the number you want for a serial number, it does not need to be a consecutive number, it may be attributed at random, anyway I doubt that this is the sort of device that will have a sticker with a serial number on it.

[f4eru]

Hey!
The Batteriser would make a really good name for an horror movie!

Or a guy throwing around batteries. .... little googling .... found one :  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIdQEsmrsU0nr1X84gr2SIA/videos

He is ....... The Batteriser .....

[EEVblog]

If you read his comments - I am sure you are correct that he thought it would be a supportive piece!

Seems that way:

Batteroo's chief executive, Bob Roohparvar, became notably upset when Jones' arguments were put to him

Of course he's going to get upset when people come out with proper supported engineering facts that don't match up to their claims.
He's all too eager to engage all and sundry who want to do marketing pieces for him, but has never once contacted me or other bloggers about any of our concerns, nor tried to defend his product in a technical forum on either Youtube video comments, this forum, or my blog page. (The Batteriser "Fang Page" child doesn't count). Nor has he ever offered any for actual testing.
As a professor he should know that the best way to defend your position and claims to fellow technical people is provide the data, and let people recreate your test results. Yet in what, 3-4 months now he hasn't provided a shred of credible data to back anything. What they have come out with has only been met with laughter from the engineering community, as evidences by the 100+ pages on here and elsewhere, and the experts quoted in the article, one even used the word "ludicrous". And rightly so, because it's so far from credible engineering data you'd think it's a parody.
Yet his main defense seems to be an appeal to authority because he's got a PhD and is a professor, and his brother has 500+ patents.

I found the article refreshingly good journalism.

Yes, Hannah is to be congratulated.

[EEVblog]

1.3A @ 1.5V with 0.5V in (1.95W) means the input is going to be at 3.9A with 100% efficiency, in reality more than that. They'll need a peak switch current of at least ~5A, ditto for the inductor.

Which of course is impossible for the battery to supply because of the ESR being >>0.3ohms at such a low voltage. Actually it's 0.3ohms at around 1V, let alone 0.5V:
http://ww2.duracell.com/media/en-US/pdf/gtcl/Product_Data_Sheet/NA_DATASHEETS/MN1500_US_CT.pdf

[adprom]

And rightly so, because it's so far from credible engineering data you'd think it's a parody.
Yet his main defense seems to be an appeal to authority because he's got a PhD and is a professor, and his brother has 500+ patents.

It would be interesting to get a comment from California State University on this and the questionable claims of one of their associate professors. I would lay a bet that they would be at odds with Bob's claims.

Out of interest because I swear I saw it somewhere, did you go through the uni engineering qualifications? Not that it really matters - I am just curious now. I thought you had mentioned it on a video once.

[nitro2k01]

(The Batteriser "Fang Page" child doesn't count).

Actually, all the videos on that channel are re-uploads of the Indiegogo progress report videos, and not produced by an independent party. So it's possible, if unlikely, that it's the work of some random fanboy.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/gallery

[gore]

Not a bad article. I wasn't expecting it to reflect on the research that's been done on the Batteriser and its exaggerated claims. As for the CEO, well, still no arguments from him. You'd expect something of substance from a professor.

In contrast to Jones' lack of expertise, Roohparvar is quick to highlight his position as a professor at California State University and his more than 30 years' experience in the power industry. (In fact he is Associate Professor, a marginally lesser role.)

Roohparvar also suggested Jones was being paid by battery maker Duracell, which he says stands a lot to lose from Batteriser's "disruptive" potential.

One of the principals of science is that there are no authorities in science. Someone can be an expert in the field, but that doesn't automatically make him right on every question. Experiments and data is all that counts. As to having a formal education - that's great. It can help a lot. But one can lack a formal education and still be a great engineer. It depends whether you are passionate about the subject and invest time into studying the field. This doesn't even apply to Dave. He's got an EE degree.  As for being paid by Duracell - a bold statement. That's just slander without evidence to back it up.

[f4eru]

Hey. As this Batterizer unfolds more and more and more as a scam, I saw one claim which was still not debunked :

Frankie RoohparvarChairman & Inventor, Holds over 500 US patents

That does not sound very plausible to me. It means you write one patent each and every week for 10 years.
Yeah. Let's google that :

https://patents.google.com/?q=roohparvar

78 results. Most of them being citation.
OK, now that's more realistic. But, patents. Who cares....

[adprom]

As for being paid by Duracell - a bold statement. That's just slander without evidence to back it up.

I doubt Dave could give 2 hoots - but as the call was in Aus - it would most likely be libel. Complete and utter waste of time pursuing however.

As to having a formal education - that's great. It can help a lot. But one can lack a formal education and still be a great engineer.

Depends, in many countries the use of the title engineer is protected

[Godzil]

But in fact, Dave is not paid by Duracell, but Energizer, and he was instructed to only use Duracell battery in his video to fool everyone! 

[Galenbo]

Actually, it's not a complete fabrication, I did a short course at NIDA. They told me I was the 2nd worst actor they have ever seen.

Indeed, you loose here, I'm sure winner BOB RPV is a much better actor, I guess nobody questions that.

:-) :-) :-)

[Galenbo]

...
Both Dr Walker and Dr Vassallo instead suggested replacing a flat battery, or using good quality rechargeable batteries, as the best options.

What if the uninformed median guy takes good intentions to the limit?
Installing rechargable+batteriser?

We all know it will last shorter, but what exacly happens when you charge the device when the battery has that jacket on?
Pushing energy the other way through a boost converter?