Author Topic: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)  (Read 3083923 times)

0 Members and 7 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline vitormhenrique

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 23
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #4650 on: March 01, 2016, 05:20:28 pm »
I reeeeeeeelly wanted them to deliver something, we all knew that it was bullshit but i wanted to but on the bench and do some tests, and debunk this project (if we needed more proof for debunk it)...
 

Offline LabSpokane

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1899
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #4651 on: March 01, 2016, 07:54:08 pm »
Batteroo taking money from the US Government is the single, dumbest thing they could ever do. It opens them and SK Telecom (the deep pocket) open to a fraud, waste, and abuse lawsuit.

SK probably not. Batteroo maybe. A lot of companies over promise going into phase 1, phase 1 is high risk funding often for high risk tech. Companies in phase 1 often find they have technical problems and cant reach what they are trying to do (if they do that too many time or too hard, individuals can be blacklisted from the awards).  Totally depends on what they put into their application and how they execute, if they get the award at all. I can tell you there is a scary oversight guy with the sole purpose of finding fraud and abuse... and he enjoys it.

I think one could make a very strong argument that SK is a witting business partner, particularly in light of them sharing a corporate address.
 

Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 539
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #4652 on: March 01, 2016, 08:30:46 pm »
Batteroo taking money from the US Government is the single, dumbest thing they could ever do. It opens them and SK Telecom (the deep pocket) open to a fraud, waste, and abuse lawsuit.

SK probably not. Batteroo maybe. A lot of companies over promise going into phase 1, phase 1 is high risk funding often for high risk tech. Companies in phase 1 often find they have technical problems and cant reach what they are trying to do (if they do that too many time or too hard, individuals can be blacklisted from the awards).  Totally depends on what they put into their application and how they execute, if they get the award at all. I can tell you there is a scary oversight guy with the sole purpose of finding fraud and abuse... and he enjoys it.

I think one could make a very strong argument that SK is a witting business partner, particularly in light of them sharing a corporate address.

So far, nothing suggests SK is involved in anything, other than a possibly bad investment choice... sharing an address is normal for an accelerator.  SK decided to invest in Batteroo, probably doing so with a promissory note. Batteroo likely used those funds from that note to lease space/equipment from SK, but are considered separate entities. It may have been part of the deal (both because investors often want people close, and because SK might have thought the resources improves Batteroos chance of success), but not because they form some-sort of legal coop or whatever. If anything, if for some reason Batteroo was found to be fraudulent, SK would likely be able to go after Batteroo. I think SK would be viewed as victims unless something really screwed-up was going on between the two (and haven't seen anything to suggest that).

 

Offline photon

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 234
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #4653 on: March 01, 2016, 09:23:29 pm »
Batteroo taking money from the US Government is the single, dumbest thing they could ever do. It opens them and SK Telecom (the deep pocket) open to a fraud, waste, and abuse lawsuit.

SK probably not. Batteroo maybe. A lot of companies over promise going into phase 1, phase 1 is high risk funding often for high risk tech. Companies in phase 1 often find they have technical problems and cant reach what they are trying to do (if they do that too many time or too hard, individuals can be blacklisted from the awards).  Totally depends on what they put into their application and how they execute, if they get the award at all. I can tell you there is a scary oversight guy with the sole purpose of finding fraud and abuse... and he enjoys it.

I think one could make a very strong argument that SK is a witting business partner, particularly in light of them sharing a corporate address.

So far, nothing suggests SK is involved in anything, other than a possibly bad investment choice... sharing an address is normal for an accelerator.  SK decided to invest in Batteroo, probably doing so with a promissory note. Batteroo likely used those funds from that note to lease space/equipment from SK, but are considered separate entities. It may have been part of the deal (both because investors often want people close, and because SK might have thought the resources improves Batteroos chance of success), but not because they form some-sort of legal coop or whatever. If anything, if for some reason Batteroo was found to be fraudulent, SK would likely be able to go after Batteroo. I think SK would be viewed as victims unless something really screwed-up was going on between the two (and haven't seen anything to suggest that).
SK does have a seat on the board of directors, which implies some culpability.
 

Offline Jay_Diddy_B

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2734
  • Country: ca
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #4654 on: March 01, 2016, 09:28:33 pm »
Meanwhile, a little unrest is detected in the IGG comments:





Jay_Diddy_B
 

Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 539
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #4655 on: March 01, 2016, 10:32:34 pm »
Batteroo taking money from the US Government is the single, dumbest thing they could ever do. It opens them and SK Telecom (the deep pocket) open to a fraud, waste, and abuse lawsuit.

SK probably not. Batteroo maybe. A lot of companies over promise going into phase 1, phase 1 is high risk funding often for high risk tech. Companies in phase 1 often find they have technical problems and cant reach what they are trying to do (if they do that too many time or too hard, individuals can be blacklisted from the awards).  Totally depends on what they put into their application and how they execute, if they get the award at all. I can tell you there is a scary oversight guy with the sole purpose of finding fraud and abuse... and he enjoys it.

I think one could make a very strong argument that SK is a witting business partner, particularly in light of them sharing a corporate address.

So far, nothing suggests SK is involved in anything, other than a possibly bad investment choice... sharing an address is normal for an accelerator.  SK decided to invest in Batteroo, probably doing so with a promissory note. Batteroo likely used those funds from that note to lease space/equipment from SK, but are considered separate entities. It may have been part of the deal (both because investors often want people close, and because SK might have thought the resources improves Batteroos chance of success), but not because they form some-sort of legal coop or whatever. If anything, if for some reason Batteroo was found to be fraudulent, SK would likely be able to go after Batteroo. I think SK would be viewed as victims unless something really screwed-up was going on between the two (and haven't seen anything to suggest that).
SK does have a seat on the board of directors, which implies some culpability.


There are several types of directors. One 'class' is a dependent board member, those that have interests outside of the company. So the SK board member is likely a dependent board member. Things are usually put in place to limit liability with dependent board members.
 
One of those things is that decision making power is usually removed or limited, for dependent board members. They can provide guidance, and they can function as a reporting/communications member between the board and investors (board members are required to be present at board meetings and investors want to know what is really going on). Because the decision make power is limited, liabilities are limited. There are other things often put in place too.

They also almost certainly have an indemnification agreement in place, so if a liability does pop-up, it’s on Batteroos side.

And if that fails, the board member almost certainly has directors liability insurance.

And if something did happen and got past all of that, it’s more likely the director would be personally liable, rather than SK.

I think SK is probably pretty insulated, but not a lawyer.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 37763
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #4656 on: March 01, 2016, 10:46:09 pm »
I think one could make a very strong argument that SK is a witting business partner, particularly in light of them sharing a corporate address.

Nope, that's just common in these VC things to provide office/lab space etc as part of the deal.
 

Offline LabSpokane

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1899
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #4657 on: March 02, 2016, 02:29:43 am »
I think one could make a very strong argument that SK is a witting business partner, particularly in light of them sharing a corporate address.

Nope, that's just common in these VC things to provide office/lab space etc as part of the deal.

Maybe so. My experience is that when these suits are filed, everyone including the family dog and the goldfish gets named as a plaintiff. Then it's a year or more of Stupid Lawyer Tricks(tm) to whittle that list down to who will actually go to trial. Whether or not one is judged at fault, avoiding a treble damages Qui Tam claim by just not taking government funding on something so demonstrably ridiculous would be an advisable path.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 37763
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #4658 on: March 02, 2016, 02:35:45 am »
I think one could make a very strong argument that SK is a witting business partner, particularly in light of them sharing a corporate address.

Nope, that's just common in these VC things to provide office/lab space etc as part of the deal.

Maybe so. My experience is that when these suits are filed, everyone including the family dog and the goldfish gets named as a plaintiff. Then it's a year or more of Stupid Lawyer Tricks(tm) to whittle that list down to who will actually go to trial. Whether or not one is judged at fault, avoiding a treble damages Qui Tam claim by just not taking government funding on something so demonstrably ridiculous would be an advisable path.

What suit?
Who going to sue them?
They'll either ship, or they'll go bust and everyone will just shrug their shoulders and walk away.
 

Offline LabSpokane

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1899
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #4659 on: March 02, 2016, 03:19:06 am »
I think one could make a very strong argument that SK is a witting business partner, particularly in light of them sharing a corporate address.

Nope, that's just common in these VC things to provide office/lab space etc as part of the deal.

Maybe so. My experience is that when these suits are filed, everyone including the family dog and the goldfish gets named as a plaintiff. Then it's a year or more of Stupid Lawyer Tricks(tm) to whittle that list down to who will actually go to trial. Whether or not one is judged at fault, avoiding a treble damages Qui Tam claim by just not taking government funding on something so demonstrably ridiculous would be an advisable path.

What suit?
Who going to sue them?
They'll either ship, or they'll go bust and everyone will just shrug their shoulders and walk away.

The IGG campaign is nothing. 

If Batteroo takes money from the US Government like they have repeatedly said they wish to, someone could file a Qui Tam (fraud, waste, and abuse) lawsuit.  The SBIR is one thing they've spoken about lately.  The other issue is them trying to hock their wares to the Department of Defense as they have mentioned previously.  Qui Tam suits pay handsomely:  30% of treble damages. Once filed, the US Government has the option to take over the suit.  If that happens, the reward to the plaintiff goes down, but you have the whole weight of the US DOJ going for a conviction.

Basically, if Batteroo takes U.S. government money, they are morons.  There will almost certainly be an underpaid insider who will realize that they can retire off a Qui Tam lawsuit.
 

Offline Bud

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6918
  • Country: ca
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #4660 on: March 02, 2016, 03:36:31 am »
Meanwhile, a little unrest is detected in the IGG comments:

People are asking for pictures of the product but may be Bob could start from posting a picture of the plant in China which "is making" his batterisers.
 :)
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Offline Jay_Diddy_B

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2734
  • Country: ca
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #4661 on: March 02, 2016, 04:14:08 am »
Hi group,
[Brit mode]
We should follow the advice posted today on the IGG campaign by Chen Yun Ping:



We should not be disturbing Dr. Bob, Dr. Bob is very busy right now. See Dr. Bob's reply to Chen Yun Ping's earlier comment.





Posting a few photographs of the parts being made, would stop all this. I can only think of one reason they are not posting photographs. You would think that they would be proud of the progress they are making. After all this is the first device that breaks the 'Maximum Power Theorem'. They are lucky it is a theorem, and not a law.

[Brit mode\]

Brit mode: to get the maximum benefit from this post, read it to yourself with a British accent. If that fails, try reading it aloud with a British accent.


Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B


« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 04:25:02 am by Jay_Diddy_B »
 

Offline LabSpokane

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1899
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #4662 on: March 02, 2016, 04:57:01 am »
Meanwhile, a little unrest is detected in the IGG comments:

People are asking for pictures of the product but may be Bob could start from posting a picture of the plant in China which "is making" his batterisers.
 :)

I'll bet you lunch Bob had to find a new CM and maybe even a new boost IC after the initial production volumes came in about 5-10% of what was expected.  And this whole China thing is pretty much a goat rope at this point.  Once one factors in all the extra costs, it would be just as well to run the production in Guadalajara or Juarez, MX, or even stateside.  Smart manufacturers get the bugs worked out, THEN ship the line across the pond if the volume is there.  Flextronics has US operations for a reason.
 

Online PeterL

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 180
  • Country: nl
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #4663 on: March 02, 2016, 08:08:48 am »
When posts like these keep coming in, I think it the time comes that they unleash Ali.




It's now 2 weeks ago that Bob said: "Sure we can show pictures". But we haven't seen anything yet.
So posting pictures within 2 weeks is to hard for them, but they can predict shipment of products from the far east within a month? I don't think so...

My advise to Bob is: Admit that the skeptics were right, and end this mayhem. If the snail climbs up 4 meters at daytime, and slides back 5 meters at night-time, it's never come out the well, just ask your brother.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 08:11:14 am by PeterL »
 

Online Halcyon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5687
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #4664 on: March 02, 2016, 08:33:18 am »
The other thing I noticed (to add to the forever growing list of inconsistencies, lies, etc...) is this seemingly stock photo provided by Batteriser:
Wasn't it mentioned somewhere that the Batteriser wasn't going to be suitable for very low-drain applications (like remotes)? Or did I just imagine it based on common sense?

(Also, if anyone wants to see a truely remarkable invention (that actually exists), see Butteriser ButterUp -- I have two of them!)
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 08:39:24 am by Halcyon »
 

Offline AmmoJammo

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 808
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #4665 on: March 02, 2016, 08:36:45 am »
The other thing I noticed (to add to the forever growing list of inconsistencies, lies, etc...) is this seemingly stock photo provided by Batteriser:
Wasn't it mentioned somewhere that the Batteriser wasn't going to be suitable for very low-drain applications (like remotes)? Or did I just imagine it based on common sense?

They only decided that after it was pointed out by the forum... Like most of their updates and changes actually...
 

Offline rrinker

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2046
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #4666 on: March 02, 2016, 01:29:36 pm »
 If they haven't gotten anything out of their factory as pre-production samples by this point, there's no way they will make an march 31 ship date. The only 'shocking' thing that could come out of this group would be if they actually DSO ship a product.

 The previous reminds me, my mouse finally died (go back a whole bunch of pages - my laptop mouse was one thing I had handy to use as a test when my new/old Fluke 45 meter was delivered, so I checked the battery voltage. Already down to 1.1 something no load (other than the multimeter input impedance) and it was going strong. That was several weeks ago. Yesterday it stopped working until I replaced the batteries, time to see how low it got. I use this as an example because this is pretty much a Wun Hung Lo brand mouse, and if even THAT can have a boost converter already built in - what purpose would there be for a Batteriser?

 

Offline Jay_Diddy_B

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2734
  • Country: ca
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #4667 on: March 05, 2016, 12:53:45 pm »
Hi,

Here is a snapshot of the latest comments on IGG:





Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 37763
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #4668 on: March 05, 2016, 01:05:18 pm »
The other thing I noticed (to add to the forever growing list of inconsistencies, lies, etc...) is this seemingly stock photo provided by Batteriser:
Wasn't it mentioned somewhere that the Batteriser wasn't going to be suitable for very low-drain applications (like remotes)? Or did I just imagine it based on common sense?

Yep, they say so here:
http://batteriser.com/batteriser-technical-qa/

Quote
Question 6: In low-drain devices like (I assume) a TV remote, the actual shelf life of the battery will be over before the Batteriser delivers noticeable gains. For example, this comment on Macworld: “Since most batteries (excluding some lithium types) have shelf lives of say 5 years or less, then taking a low drain application scenario where the batteries will naturally last two years or more (i.e. a remote…), then boosting the battery life by the claimed 8X would mean your 5 years shelf-life battery would be “good-to-go” for up to 40 years! Doesn’t take an engineer to tell you “it ain’t gonna happen!!”

Answer: Batteriser does work with voltage and current, regardless of the chemistry. We have seen improvement even with lithium battery. For those folks that change a battery every 5 years, we recommend not to utilize Batteriser technology. However if you are like most of us living in an average household having 25 battery operated devices and having to continuously change batteries, Batteriser would certainly be a good choice to extend the time between battery changes by 8x depending on the end device.”
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 37763
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #4669 on: March 05, 2016, 01:21:06 pm »
They only decided that after it was pointed out by the forum... Like most of their updates and changes actually...

Yes. Lots of changes have been made a day or two after they were bought up on the forum. At least half a dozen IIRC. They obviously read the forum and change as a result.
Major fundamental stuff like cutoff voltage claims, FCC, current, the battery study paper they cite etc.
Free R&D, you're welcome Batteriser  ;D
 

Offline Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 12298
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #4670 on: March 05, 2016, 01:41:21 pm »
Free R&D, you're welcome Batteriser  ;D

Not Free R&D .... but something far more valuable: Free market feedback.  They've been told the issues that have been identified - and they will then know what to address.

By 'address' I don't necessarily mean 'fix' - although that would be the hope.  A problem can be 'addressed' by making it less unpalatable - that is, changing the perception.

We are familiar with these sorts of games from the ranks of politicians.
 

Offline SeanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16284
  • Country: za
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #4671 on: March 05, 2016, 02:06:03 pm »
Dave, you should send them a bill for your consultation, at least the time and resources you spent on giving the feedback.

I would assume $1800 per hour is a reasonable rate, and around a half hour per day since the first beginning of this thread, plus the time ( probably around 30 hours) per video for the professional presentations on product feedback. Payable in Australian dollars, and does not include any out of packet expenses ( Probes is expensive, you probably should charge for the delivery time as well) incurred during producing this ongoing consultation.
 

Offline ccs46

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 153
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #4672 on: March 07, 2016, 08:38:52 pm »

Free R&D, you're welcome Batteriser  ;D
You should charge for this...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Normal people... believe that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Engineers believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet. - Scott Adams
 

Online Halcyon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5687
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #4673 on: March 07, 2016, 11:18:39 pm »

Free R&D, you're welcome Batteriser  ;D
You should charge for this...

I'll take 1000 shares in Batteroo for my contribution ;-)
 

Offline ccs46

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 153
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #4674 on: March 07, 2016, 11:20:06 pm »

Free R&D, you're welcome Batteriser  ;D
You should charge for this...

I'll take 1000 shares in Batteroo for my contribution ;-)
Which you will never be able to sell..., lose a lot of money, or blamed that your partially responsible. Doesn't seem like a good idea.  :-DD
Normal people... believe that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Engineers believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet. - Scott Adams
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf