EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[EEVblog]

These people are engineers, where are the datasheets, graphs and efficiency curves? 

Those pesky thing get in the way of good marketing.
They have promised data and never delivered.
They have promised media test units and never delivered.
But they do deliver occasionally, kinda: They promised a be-all-end-all highly technical video for engineers, and gave us a snail story and incorrect explanation of battery capacity.

[Rasz]

Quote: 'Batteriser increases sales in Denmark region'

...independent American testing laboratory UL has tested Batteriser on a Garmin GPS. With an ordinary battery GPS went out after an hour and 43 minutes while it with Batteriser in conjunction entire 10 hours and 12 minutes - exactly six times as long.

not this shit again, how the F does UL stand idly by this? how the F did they do it in the first place?

[free_electron]

Batteriser comments on the Indiegogo campain:
"Relax old man. I'm half your age and twice your strength..." and
"I will check it (customers physical strength) out myself. I'm also willing to bet you probalby smell like the dumpsters in Milpitas...."

What the
Seriously ??
Really ?

No, no, no, noooo professional company would ever ever ever do this. Not even remotely. That is beyond insane 
If an employee of a decent run company would post such a comment online the next comment would be an apology

followed by a swift kick in the buttocks of said employee so he flies through the front door and out.

[Jay_Diddy_B]

Hi,

Just to get back to the technical aspect of the Batteriser for a minute.

Here is the discharge curve of a Duracell AA battery:



If you take the point at 30,000 seconds, the open circuit voltage is 1.23 Volts and the internal resistance is 0.3 Ohms:



The 30,000 second point was chosen. The cell is half full or half empty depending on your view 

So if you add a variable load resistor to the circuit:



And you monitor the terminal voltage, the cell current and the power dissipated in the load resistor you get this:



It is simply to not possible to get more than 1.26W


Now if I introduce a Batteriser. I have been very generous and given the Batteriser a conversion efficiency of 95%. The output voltage is being held constant at 1.4V



The results are:



The maximum load power is 1.17W. This is not a surprise since 95% of 1.26W is around 1.17W.


What is more interesting is that the circuit doesn't work at all on the low voltage side of the maximum power point.
This is because the boost converter tries to draw more current, the voltage goes down, it tries to draw even more current etc. until the terminal voltage of the cell is zero volts and there is no power in the load.

I submit that it is simply not possible to build a Batteriser that will allow more than about 800mA from a half depleted AA cell.

I am waiting to watch how this plays out.....

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

[grumpydoc]

What is more interesting is that the circuit doesn't work at all on the low voltage side of the maximum power point.
This is because the boost converter tries to draw more current, the voltage goes down, it tries to draw even more current etc. until the terminal voltage of the cell is zero volts and there is no power in the load.

I submit that it is simply not possible to build a Batteriser that will allow more than about 800mA from a half depleted AA cell.

I have a practical demonstration of this in my pocket

During the winter I carry an Olight S15 Batton - I quite like it as a torch but the important thing for this discussion is that it obviously has a boost** converter in it since it will run from either 1xAA or 2xAA batteries.

It has three light levels - full output (3A @ 2.85v into the LED) can only really be achieved with fairly fresh batteries.. Once they are part discharged it will only go to medium brightness (pulling maybe 500mA). You just can't pull the current required out of a part exhausted battery.

** Probably buck-boost in fact as it will take Lithium batteries as well.

[Fungus]

...

Now if I introduce a Batteriser. I have been very generous and given the Batteriser a conversion efficiency of 95%. The output voltage is being held constant at 1.4V

Batteriser does 1.5V, I think you'll find...

I submit that it is simply not possible to build a Batteriser that will allow more than about 800mA from a half depleted AA cell.

...which means that number has to be revised downwards...

...down towards the 500mA which they think is unacceptable and currently causing "shipping delays"? 

[jancumps]

The PCB looks like it's made of corrigated cardboard too
McBryce.

Laminated phenolic - not fibreglass cheap old style, china low-cost.
...

I worked with phenolic - it looks more like corrigated cardboard to me too, hand coloured green.

[SpidersWeb]

I'm not sure if people are getting bored of the Jerry Springer performance or not, but good lord, how old is Ali Roohparvar? Twelve?
I know he's being trolled, but he should recognize this and show some ounce of professionalism, it's ridiculous.

[onlooker]

I know he's being trolled, but he should recognize this and show some ounce of professionalism, it's ridiculous.

This anger may be a good indication as to how well their business is doing.

[Fungus]

it looks more like corrigated cardboard to me too, hand coloured green.

Now I look more closely... you may be right. Cardboard with little holes cut in it for some components to poke through!   

[ez24]

"I will check it (customers physical strength) out myself. I'm also willing to bet you probalby smell like the dumpsters in Milpitas...."

Maybe this is a private joke that I do not get.  What caught my eye is there is an eBay seller from Milpitas that always has some beat up Power Designs Power Supplies for sale.  Do people in Milpitas throw electronics away in dumpsters?  I thought everyone recycled electronics stuff?

[McBryce]

The PCB looks like it's made of corrigated cardboard too
McBryce.

Laminated phenolic - not fibreglass cheap old style, china low-cost.
...

I worked with phenolic - it looks more like corrigated cardboard to me too, hand coloured green.

I've worked with phemolic too, which is why I said it looks like cardboard. Phenolic is perfectly flat, that looks uneven.

McBryce.

[gore]

This whole campaign and all the silly claims they made was ridiculous from the get go. And the little fan page we've been dealing with. Considering the attitude of Ali Roohparvar on the Indiegogo website and his ignorant exchange tells me that it doesn't take an immature child to run a page like that. Ali could occupy that position himself.

Doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in this company, does it. I am just hoping that some of you who ordered the product for the sake of testing its false claims will eventually get it. Some tests results would be nice to put it to bed once and for all.

[Fungus]

"you probalby smell like the dumpsters in Milpitas...."

Maybe this is a private joke that I do not get.

I have no idea what it means but it sure made me laugh. 

[McBryce]

"you probalby smell like the dumpsters in Milpitas...."

Maybe this is a private joke that I do not get.

I have no idea what it means but it sure made me laugh. 

Perhaps it's where he sourced that "PCB" on the D-Cell?

McBryce.

[Jay_Diddy_B]

Hi group,

It looks like that whole exchange of comments on the Batteriser Indieggo between Ali R is now gone. The number of comments has gone down to 534.

I wish the IGG site would show how many comments have been deleted.

The number of backers is slowly going down. There are 7394 backers now.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

[EEVblog]

It looks like that whole exchange of comments on the Batteriser Indieggo between Ali R is now gone.

Yep, they deleted everything, both Ali's comments and those of the backers.
This ability makes IGG a joke.
Also, they can't even date the updates and comments, that's just bullshit.

[EEVblog]

Doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in this company, does it. I am just hoping that some of you who ordered the product for the sake of testing its false claims will eventually get it. Some tests results would be nice to put it to bed once and for all.

No need to worry about that, it will be a mad scramble to publish full efficiency curves, real tests with dozens of products including the infamous Golf GPS.
The game will be completely up once they ship.

[SL4P]

It looks like that whole exchange of comments on the Batteriser Indieggo between Ali R is now gone.

Yep, they deleted everything, both Ali's comments and those of the backers.
This ability makes IGG a joke.
Also, they can't even date the updates and comments, that's just bullshit.

I wouldn't be surprised if this whole Batteriser bungle didn't bring IGG to it's knees - or at the very least to stimulate legal requirements for CF campaigns.  It's in IGGs interest to call Batteroo to the table to discuss the effect on their (IGG) image as a legitimate CF player.

Added:  https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/updates

Our team has been hard at work completing final development of Batteriser and moving into initial production. At this time, we have encountered a slight delay relating to the manufacturing of the Batteriser's integrated circuit (IC).

Then you are certainly not moving into production ... yet.

Our earlier proof of concept prototype IC could efficiently deliver 500 milliamps of steady state current.

But we never presented it.

However, as many applications need higher current driving capabilities, we modified our Integrated Circuit (IC) design to make it capable of the higher level of current driving capability. We expected our final IC to be ready and out of the fabrication facility (FAB) over a month ago.

Project Management Score: 2/10

However, due to a drift in process parameters, the IC is still being worked on by our engineering team, in order to be ready for mass production.

A drift... to be ready...  We thought you were 'moving' into production...?

Fortunately, we have been working diligently with the FAB to address and fix the issues responsible for this delay, and we are anxiously waiting to receive our final IC in the coming weeks.

''working diligently''...  a spec change on your part - the fab does the rest (at great cost for a recast of the die), and we all move on...

Time is a constant.  Usually pretty easy to work with it - if you are experienced and communicate well.

We are committed to producing your Batterisers with the highest quality standards.

No-one doubts the Batteriser will be made to the 'highest standards' unless proven wrong, but there are concerns whether it will work.
The stainless sleeve looks nice.  The rest of the design strategy remains to be seen. At all.

[EEVblog]

I wouldn't be surprised if this whole Batteriser bungle didn't bring IGG to it's knees - or at the very least to stimulate legal requirements for CF campaigns.  It's in IGGs interest to call Batteroo to the tabe to discuss the effect om their (IGG) image as a legitimate CF player.

Not going to happen.
Dodgy campaigns like Batteriser are literally a dime-a-dozen on IGG

[WN1X]

No need to worry about that, it will be a mad scramble to publish full efficiency curves, real tests with dozens of products including the infamous Golf GPS.
The game will be completely up once they ship.

And let's not forget Probes the Monkey. Me thinks "Battery Bob" will be the one getting probed 

[AmmoJammo]

The stainless sleeve looks nice.  The rest of the design strategy remains to be seen. At all.

It may look nice, but stainless steel is a poor conductor.

With the thickness they're using, and the design of the sleeve, the stainless steel itself will have a resistance similar to the esr of the battery anyway...

[Delta]

Give them a break, "the possibilities are endless"!  A CarBatteriser could be next!

[rich]

Stainless isn't totally rubbish at conducting, I think roughly 15 milliohms for an 0.2mm thick AA batteriser sheet, but maybe, realising they need all the help they can, decided not to cut all the logo out of the C cell version 

[EEVblog]

Give them a break, "the possibilities are endless"!  A CarBatteriser could be next!

Nice troll that one!