New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope

[Fungus]

Welcome to EEVBLOG forums!

[alsetalokin4017]

Just USE the silly thing, don't obsess about it! Use it to its fullest, try to understand and work around its few remaining bugs, if possible, and know that you can _usually_ even rely on its measurements IF you use it properly and intelligently. (Garbage in, garbage out applies here.)

You folks _do_ realize, I hope, that you can display _all_ the scope's measurements simultaneously, removing and displaying as you like, with just a few button presses, right?

[Fungus]

Just USE the silly thing, don't obsess about it!

Yep. Step back and look at the big picture. Look at what you can do now that you couldn't do before.

If you do that then you'll see the DS1054Z is easily worth $400, despite a few very minor flaws.

(a lot of people here pay more than that for a basic-feature multimeter).

[Assafl]

Man oh Man such drama over what I though was a simple question.

Of course I am talking about that fact that the measurement values are not permanently deleted
unless you turn the scope off.

My goodness.

As a newbie.... seeing all that drama makes me think twice before asking another question.

Yup - just use it. It works and works well (for the right applications).

Drama is a side effect of successful products. So really useful and successful products like fidget spinners and Rigol scopes have drama.

[alsetalokin4017]

A bit of a gloss on the above scopeshots:

#88: Typical use of three input channels + math. DUT input voltage on CH1, input current on CH2, output voltage into known resistive load on CH3. Math calculates instantaneous input power, automatic measurement of Math Average gives average input power. Scope is set to make Measurements between cursors that encompass full cycles, not the whole screen display. (A bug/feature here: the limiting cursors are not shown, they disappear as soon as the are set. Another bug: The scope does not remember channel BW Limit setting when power-cycled.) Also showing fine tuning of channel vertical V/div settings to increase displayed height of signals for better measurement accuracy. And showing one channel set to "A" for amps, thus having the Math return "W" for watts in its computation.

#87: Same capture as above but with All Measure screen shown. (Bug here: the Hardware Frequency Counter display blocks the view of several column heads. Solution: turn off the HW counter!)

#40: Using the FFT to look at the spectral purity of a slightly distorted input "sine" wave. There is significant power in the second and third harmonics.

#37: Using Phase Angle cursors to manually confirm the scope' automatic measurement of phase angle between CH1 and CH2.

#33: Two thirty-second sweeps of DUT response using log sweep FG from 1 kHz to 24 MHz sine waves. 5 seconds per division horizontally, trigger set 30 seconds leftwards of center screen.

#29: Comparing a live trace from one circuit node referenced to ground,  to a stored reference trace from a different node requiring different reference connection.

"I got a million of 'em, har har har" --- Jimmy Durante

[bitseeker]

Man oh Man such drama over what I though was a simple question.

Of course I am talking about that fact that the measurement values are not permanently deleted
unless you turn the scope off.

Some things are more complex than they first appear on the surface. Not being able to permanently delete stuff, as you now see, has more going on.

As a newbie.... seeing all that drama makes me think twice before asking another question.

Just as there's no perfect oscilloscope, there's no perfect forum. Don't let that stop you from asking questions. Simply ignore the drama and benefit from the answers. There's much of value here, with a little drama to boot, just like real life.

Welcome to forum, Stuart.

[Electro Fan]

Man oh Man such drama over what I though was a simple question.

Of course I am talking about that fact that the measurement values are not permanently deleted
unless you turn the scope off.

Some things are more complex than they first appear on the surface. Not being able to permanently delete stuff, as you now see, has more going on.

As a newbie.... seeing all that drama makes me think twice before asking another question.

Just as there's no perfect oscilloscope, there's no perfect forum. Don't let that stop you from asking questions. Simply ignore the drama and benefit from the answers. There's much of value here, with a little drama to boot, just like real life.

Welcome to forum, Stuart.

+1; Welcome to the forum and give it plenty more tries. This is a great forum (actually several forums nicely organized by topics) with probably as low a drama factor as you will find on the Internet; especially for something filled with fairly complex details that are sometimes lost or misinterpreted (in terms of meaning or intent) in often quickly written and quickly read posts, from people with different skill levels, and often with different native language backgrounds.  Occasionally we get some drama but it usually subsides pretty easily and overall this really is a very friend place; I think it mirrors Dave's tone which can be technically very, very smart and experienced, and yet he doesn't take himself too seriously - nor do most of the folks here take themselves too seriously.  You will find that there are many smart and experienced people here who share their knowledge in very kind manners; there's lots of passion for EE and related matters here from people all along the path from newbie to expert and there's some occasional humor - sometimes dry and sometimes not so dry but it's consistently a friendly and super helpful place.  Definitely stick around, you will be very glad you did.  No better place to learn (or help teach) EE on an Internet forum.

[bitseeker]

Well put, Electro Fan. One thing I'd add to the point about native languages: Since this is an international forum, sometimes a post may appear harsh or offensive, but is simply due to a translation/cultural mismatch with no harm nor drama intended.

[emocabras]

Excuse me to be new and start studying electronics now.
Have buy a rigol ds1054z, be the first oscilloscope
If I measure voltage with 1x probe after bridge graetz get frequency 100hz and this is correct.
If I measure voltage with probe 10x after bridge graetz get 50hz and this is incorrect.
You can explain me???

thank you

[ted572]

Re. Post #3816   Please change the O'Scope from DC to AC Coupling an repeat your measurements. 
Edit:  Your also changing the switch on the Probe from x1 to x10, right?  That probably is OK, it looks like it, but that is also necessary of course.

[IAmBack]

Excuse me to be new and start studying electronics now.
Have buy a rigol ds1054z, be the first oscilloscope
If I measure voltage with 1x probe after bridge graetz get frequency 100hz and this is correct.
If I measure voltage with probe 10x after bridge graetz get 50hz and this is incorrect.
You can explain me???

thank you

It may have something to do with the "earth" (which is connected to the "ground" od the probe via grounding terminal of the mains cable) or its absence and a capacitance coupling between primary and secondary windings of the transformer under test.

[emocabras]

yes I change switch probe. Have tested in ac do not change anything. I do not understand why 1x 10x change waveform.
Certainly how to see waveform change, change rms value
I have tried with other transformers always the same result.
To be my oscilloscope having problems, you can try your oscilloscope. I repeat to be beginner. Do not know if this be normal behave oscilloscope with 10x probe.
Thank you, excuse my bad english writing .

[emocabras]

This and what I see,  If  use 2 probes, with a math function a + b number an inverted channel.

Remember I'm beginner ask for help understanding see different waveform 10x 1x probe

[hexreader]

My guess is that you have no load for your circuit.

Put a 10 kilo-ohm resistor at the output of your bridge rectifier and see if things improve.

With no other load, your oscilloscope becomes a high impedance load, which causes the load to change as your measurement setup changes.

... but of course, since you have not posted the circuit diagram for your setup, or information on how you connected scope probes, we can only guess...

[ted572]

Re. Post #3819   Do you have the Scope Probe's ground lead connected to exactly the same Ground reference, and the Probes Tip connected to exactly the same point for each measurement condition (X1 vs X10)?  Exactly, meaning you change the Probe from x1 to x10, and the the Scope setting from X1 to X10, without moving the Probe connections at all.

If this is the case, then please show us a schematic of the AC source, transformer (with winging details, etc), and the Bridge (I assume that this is a bridge rectifier) with details (diodes,  etc), and what is connected to the Bridge.  Please this has to a schematic with details, NOT a block diagram.

This has to be simple, so without details the problem won't necessarily be obvious to us.  Oh - did I say Obvious (NFW).   I can't really imagine this being a defect in your scope, although of course it could be.

Edit - Re. Post #3823: If you had the Bridge Rectifier DC negative (-) Output connected to chassis/earth Ground (same as O'Scope AC cord's Ground) you probably wouldn't have even had this issue.  Anyway, you have a very good answer to the problem from 'hexreader' in the following reply's.  Please take his advice and watch these videos, you will gain a lot of good insight for accurate measurements and safety.

[emocabras]

All connected equally 1x to 10x tests. I tried other transformers and straightening bridges. Always present 1x 10x waveform difference.

Simple scheme. Only transformer and bridge.

1x wave form is incorrect because we know bridge to straighten 50h to 100hz
10x waveform no correct.
I tried to remove earth from oscilloscope and problem not exist with ground unconnected oscilloscope. Now reading 1x and 10x are the same as correct.
Can explain why the earth oscilloscope creates this problem.
No ground and dangerous oscilloscope
I want to stay connected ground oscilloscope.

See photos now 10x no problems

thanks, Excuse my English.

[hexreader]

The transformer has a small amount of capacitance, which allows a small amount of current to flow from primary to secondary, which adds to your scope signal.

This is why a load on the bridge output is import, as this makes the capacitive coupling effect less significant.

Add a small load to the output of the bridge and re-connect ground to your scope.

I want to stay connected ground oscilloscope.

That is a fantastically good idea, but be sure to watch Dave's video on scope grounding before progressing.
 

[emocabras]

But this is normal? I tried transformers problem to do with everyone. Why with 1x probe do not make a problem?
Because without land connection oscilloscope problem do not do 10x.
Excuse me to be beginner to be able to explain.
Where you can read this documentation to learn

[hexreader]

X1 probe has 1 megOhm impedance, whereas X10 probe has 10 megOhm impedance .

Both provide very small loading, but it seems that 1 megOhm is just sufficient.

A 10K load will be much better still, and will help the diodes to do their job properly.

Watch all of Dave's scope videos to learn more in a nice easy way.

Probe video is here:

[emocabras]

Perfect now I have understood.

thank you very much

[Fungus]

Remember I'm beginner ask for help understanding 10x 1x probe

It's very simple: Don't use 1x.

No it's not a joke.

[technogeeky]

Remember I'm beginner ask for help understanding 10x 1x probe

It's very simple: Don't use 1x.

No it's not a joke.

Pretty much. The only reason to ever use a 1x setting on a 10x/1x probe is when you want to characterize some noise (e.g. caused by a power supply or something), and you are sure that it's there, but you can't really see it well with a 10x setting.

Other than that, I'd rather everyone just ship fixed 10x probes with all devices. Fixing the probe to 10x would improve their performance slightly, but more importantly it would stop people from making mistakes and frying the inputs of their oscilloscopes.

[emocabras]

I confirm I never use 1x. Have tried only transformer, low volt to understand wave form problem. Have watched dave movies to understand why 10x returned incorrect signal with no minimum load.
Thanks to everyone, this is a great resource forum.

[David Hess]

Other than that, I'd rather everyone just ship fixed 10x probes with all devices. Fixing the probe to 10x would improve their performance slightly, but more importantly it would stop people from making mistakes and frying the inputs of their oscilloscopes.

Frying the inputs of their oscilloscopes?  What?

10x probes help a little but consider what happens when AC input coupling is used.  The oscilloscope's AC coupling capacitors charges to the *full* average DC value at the tip of the 10x probe without attenuation.  In most applications including power line applications this is no problem if you have a good oscilloscope. (1)

Most 100x probes make this *worse*.  They are used in high voltage applications which easily exceed the breakdown rating of the oscilloscope's AC coupling capacitor.  If you want a safe 100x probe, look for one with an input resistance *lower* than 100 megohms which indicates that it has a shunt resistor to attenuate DC voltages.

(1) The peak input voltage specification for the Rigol DS1000Z is exactly the same with 1x and 10x probes although with a different CAT rating.

[sandor626]

Hi,
I've updated the firmware. It's okay.
1) I downloaded the firmware from the rigol site.
2) I did the oscilloscope memory sanitization procedure.  I reboot.
3) I re-calibrated. I Reboot.
4) I installed the firmware. I Reboot.
5) I checked the extended version installed (menu, menu, force, menu) and everything was ok !
6) At that moment, two new options appeared on the calibration screen. I did not re-calibrate, I Rebbot
7) After re-boot, the two new options had disappeared . I re-calibrated , successfull after 20min.

This firmware  version is very very good . The trigger is better on small signals. The measures is better ,
stable Is better  and equal between the channels .

Thanks Rigol !!