EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[IanB]

I really don't understand why everyone is so keen to get their hands on one of these things? What is the point?

We know exactly what it can and can't do based on the completely understood science of batteries and boost converters. There is no need to obtain the thing to test its function.

Look, this forum is full of engineers with fully equipped work benches and design experience. Anyone could construct an optimally efficient boost converter that produces a regulated 1.5 V output from an input voltage down to 0.8 V (or near enough). It doesn't have to be small, just efficient. Then this could be used to test the available run time with simulated loads under varying cut-off voltages, with and without the boost converter in the loop.

We know that the Batteriser can't do better than something designed without space constraints, so any such experiment will establish the upper limit on the possible performance of the Batteriser.

I'm starting to think this whole exercise is more like a witch hunt with a crowd baying for blood rather than a search for enlightenment.

This Wayne chap will do very well to stay away. There is no light here, only hot air.

[quad]

I, for one, would welcome Wayne to the forums. He's a straight shooter. He's the ONLY person connected to Batteroo who'll speak plain English about what's going on. A pleasant contrast to Bob's "CEO talk".

Can you imagine if it were Bob we were dealing with? He'd take Dave's money, stall for a year and half, cobble up some excuse about a dingo stealing the Batteroos...

If Wayne said he was going to ship them, I'd believe him.

[johndoe123]

We've waited this long, a few days won't kill us :-)

I won't kill, but for vloggers and youtubers it might hit where it hurts: the pocket. I'll explain: currently there are no unboxing or analysis videos of Batteriser on YT, and since there is a huge hype around it, expect the first video to have a few million hits. That means money, and a good amount of it.

The second and third video won't get that much attention: the first will always be the first, specially if it appears days before the 2nd, 3rd and so on. This has, therefore, become a race for youtube hits.

Its a bloody batterizer, not the latest Iphone, it may get a few 100k hits but never some millions.
lets say 500k thats 250$, not that much of a deal

[Brumby]

Again I have made an offer to Wayne, see if he takes it.

He said he might have sent me some originally if he hadn't have seen the personal attacks on the forum, so thanks everyone who did that.

Can't say I blame Wayne.  Some of the crap that was dumped on him was personal and derived completely from speculation.

He seems to me to be a knockabout bloke who has demonstrated his ability to make good in whatever vocation he puts his hand to - and being open-minded, sought to give Batteroo a chance.  While he may not understand the maths and physics, nor have an EE based approach to testing - he does have a functional understanding and is trying to do exactly the same thing as Dave wants to do - CHECK THE BLOODY THINGS OUT!

He may not be able to generate pretty charts or extensive tables - but he will be able to get a pretty good idea on one very simple, grass roots fundamental:  Will it be good enough to sell and survive in the marketplace?

The average punter is NOT going to give a damn about all the academic crap - they are just going to want to know if it's going to work for them.  In that respect, Wayne is a long way ahead of some of the opinion I have seen expressed here.

Branding him a stooge for Bob was not fair - and as far as questioning his 'stop off' at Batteroo HQ on the way to that concert.  Hell - I would have gone to a concert like that if I'd had the time and money!  Stopping off at Batteroo was just being sensible.


Wayne, I would like to encourage you to reconsider sending a sleeve or two to Dave.  Yes, he runs the forum where some crap has been dumped on you - but it was not from him.

Please understand, this is a global forum, with a wide range of members with an extremely wide range of personalities.  If you think you're Civil and Mechanical Engineer friends seem weird at times - when their subject matter is pretty visilbe - then just think what Electrical Engineers could be like, since just about all of their subject matter is invisible and much of it starts getting into quantum physics.


Leave Wayne alone and let the poor bugger do his testing.

[Brumby]

Although that would explain all the conspiracy theories around here (including my own!), it raises the question: Why Wayne?

Seriously?  Are you that blind?

He visited Batteroo and was able to express his interest personally.  He was able to present himself in a positive light and get a rapport happening.  If you are in business, that's the sort of thing that will get you on the short list!

Batteroo know there's a controversy out there - and it's just sensible to release the first devices to people who are likely to have a positive attitude.


Geez ... it's not rocket science.

[EEVblog]

I won't kill, but for vloggers and youtubers it might hit where it hurts: the pocket. I'll explain: currently there are no unboxing or analysis videos of Batteriser on YT, and since there is a huge hype around it, expect the first video to have a few million hits.

Err, no. My best video on this has 230k views.

[ez24]

I'm starting to think this whole exercise is more like a witch hunt with a crowd baying for blood rather than a search for enlightenment.

I think of this like the search for Big Foot.    I think Big Foot will be found before the bats show up

[EEVblog]

If he wanted to be collaborative, he'd just send the batteriser and be done with it, and perhaps even make a name for his business, like I wrote earlier.

I'm happy to give him and his business a shoutout in the video. Companies have offered to pay thousands of dollars for a mention like that.
His call.

[EEVblog]

I really don't understand why everyone is so keen to get their hands on one of these things? What is the point?

Because this is the industries biggest soap opera!

[Brumby]

He said he might have sent me some originally if he hadn't have seen the personal attacks on the forum, so thanks everyone who did that.

Saying that now has only one meaning: he wants to put you against your forum members.

BULLSHIT.

He simply grouped everyone here on the EEVblog in the one bucket!  Why should he differentiate?  We are all here with similar interests ... and that is a valid enough reason to lump us together.

For him to get a clear picture of the differing attitudes, he would need to sit down and sift through hundreds of posts - which is something nobody here would do if it was from another forum that was dumping on Dave.


Wayne copped crap from the EEVblog forum - no matter how many members participated - and Dave gets tarnished by that.... which is also unfair.

[Brumby]

I really don't understand why everyone is so keen to get their hands on one of these things? What is the point?

Because up until there is a real product that has undergone real testing, the whole subject is academic.

Engineers, physicists, chemists, materials scientists and so on, may have a good handle on a lot of subject matter, but time after time over the years, there are things that have been said were not possible, but have come to be.  Until a real product is put through its paces, the general populace will hold an understandable scepticism of the Engineers' rantings.

As Engineering minds, we should expect the results to be no surprise - but for many, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

[Halcyon]

A lot of people are getting excited over nothing. It's clear Wayne has these early prototypes (he said it himself). How these differ to the "real" Batterisers, no one knows because there is still no confirmation that the final product even exists.

Yes, we all know what the outcome of any tests will be. But even if Dave got hold of an early-Batteriser off Wayne, Bob will be the first to come out with some bullshit story and try and invalidate any tests by claiming that the performance of the prototype is not indicative of the final product (which no one has and probably will never have). That way, he can at least claim that any tests don't prove anything without giving away that he hasn't shipped anything to backers.

That said, to those with a brain, the video will be confirmation of what we've been saying all along. I'd still watch it. 

[EEVblog]

Yes, we all know what the outcome of any tests will be. But even if Dave got hold of an early-Batteriser off Wayne, Bob will be the first to come out with some bullshit story and try and invalidate any tests by claiming that the performance of the prototype is not indicative of the final product (which no one has and probably will never have). That way, he can at least claim that any tests don't prove anything without giving away that he hasn't shipped anything to backers.

In that case Bob would be admitting that he lied about shipping them to backers.
Bob did ship these to Wayne in the official final packaging, with the official indiegogo back letter, and marked his pledge as being fulfilled. So according to Bob these are not prototypes.

[EEVblog]

This is the IGG marked perk shipment.
You wouldn't do that for prototypes.
BTW, I know someone who's order number is in the 10's and it hasn't been delivered yet or even received a shipping or fulfilled email

[Brumby]

I really don't understand why everyone is so keen to get their hands on one of these things? What is the point?

Because this is the industries biggest soap opera!

Exactly! It is not about the product itself, because I believe most of us don't give a crap about it. We do, however, need closure! We need to see the last episode, where the good guy finally gets to beat the crap out of the bad guy.

This is looking like those good series on Netflix that don't have the last season yet (Suits, Homeland, House of Cards...), and we are left hanging!

There might be a bit of that - but there are two more aspects that I think are more significant...

The first is vindication for the Engineers.  Let's face it - it's always good to get concrete confirmation, even if we were more than confident in the outcome.

The second is that people will want to have the physical product to see for themselves.

[Brumby]

Actually, I just thought of a third option:  People might just want to have them for a display piece.  It would certainly be an interesting conversation starter!

[Luminax]

I was kinda afraid of Necroing but apparently this thread is still alive and well!...

I sure do hope we can get some info on where the prototype were built and (if it exists) the production ones.

That thing in Shenzen about 100+ page back did make me pause in horror... thinking "OMG my company have a factory in Shenzen  " and given that we did have a record with one failed kickstart project (Anyone know or remember Pirate3D) that got me scared senseless...

Oh well, back to designing and waiting for more soap opera!

PS: I think I remember Boob or Pranky themselves answered in some forum thread... or was it youtube post? anyone can link me to them if you remember it?

[EEVblog]

PS: I think I remember Boob or Pranky themselves answered in some forum thread... or was it youtube post? anyone can link me to them if you remember it?

They have never posted in this forum, but we know they read it.

[Luminax]

PS: I think I remember Boob or Pranky themselves answered in some forum thread... or was it youtube post? anyone can link me to them if you remember it?

They have never posted in this forum, but we know they read it.

Hmmm.... odd.... guess I'll check my history when i get home
Could've sworn I remember some direct communication... or it could be from the Siglent debacle some way back...
 

[Barny]

The direct comunication was with videos.

Butteriser posted a video.
Dave posted a video showing that the video was full of false claims
Butteriser posted a video trying to disprove Dave.
Dave posted a video showing that the answer video was full off bull s.....
.
.
.
.

[Brumby]

Nobody from Batteroo has posted here - certainly as far as we know.

If there had been, you would not have any doubts.

[Fungus]

PS: I think I remember Boob or Pranky themselves answered in some forum thread... or was it youtube post? anyone can link me to them if you remember it?

They have never posted in this forum, but we know they read it.

Hmmm.... odd.... guess I'll check my history when i get home
Could've sworn I remember some direct communication...

Nah. They made some videos responding to Dave's debunking and referenced a few things that they could only have known from reading these forums.

They've never posted here though (not under their own names, anyway, and I think a fake Batteroo account would last about 10 seconds here).

[timb]

He's one to talk, honestly, after what he said to you in his initial email.
I didn't see anything particularly viscous directed at him, and what *was* said only came after his email.

Frankly, I don't think he ever planned on sending you anything. I think he's just saying that now to make you feel bad.

Trust me, the response he received was mild compared to some forums I've seen. He's lucky this isn't 4chan, Reddit or Something Awful.

I don't know how you'd like to characterise viscous [sic] but you've only just suggested he was lying to Dave. 

I'll take your word the response may be mild compared to other forums. I don't think that is much of an endorsement of a community that ought to be able to rise to a greater standard since it has the technical base to support judgements based on empirical evidence.

I was by coincidence searching on "Henry IV" and the first response page showed this quote.

"We can only reason from what is; we can reason on actualities, but not on possibilities."

If someone was sending the guy death threats or burst into his company's office covered in petroleum jelly and pubes (both things other forums are guilty of) it would be one thing. But nobody here did that.

A few people emailed him, inquiring about the Batterisers he received. A couple of other people called him a mildly inappropriate name, *after* he did the same to Dave.

He's not an innocent victim. He could have simple ignored the emails he got, or told people he didn't want to be contacted. He didn't do that. He could have not attacked Dave, either, but he did...

Keep in mind I'm not defending anyone being rude to him, or anyone else. However, I'm realistic and know that, no matter where you go, there will *always* be people who are immature and rude. Always. That's life.

Finally, I didn't say he was lying. What I said was, that in my opinion, the offer was never genuine. As someone who's studied psychology, it's pretty clear (to me) what he's doing. It's a form of splitting. He's trying to position Dave against his forum members (us).

[Luminax]

Yeah, I checked my history, it was the Siglent ebay thingamabob a little way back.
<conspiracy bait>Wonder how I got those two confused</conspiracy bait>
 
Guess my brain/memory needs a defrag or better yet... a Batteriser!Batteroo!
Anyway, carry on 

[Fungus]

If someone was sending the guy death threats or burst into his company's office covered in petroleum jelly and pubes (both things other forums are guilty of) it would be one thing. But nobody here did that.

Maybe it's just me but ... I don't think anything said in these forums warrants him taking that level of offense. Not with him being an internationally-travelled Australian potty-mouth and all. Judging by his music tastes he's no youngster, either.

OTOH his contact details were published here and we don't know what could have been said to him in private. I think something might have been said there. Anybody want to 'fess up to contacting him personally?