EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[meeder]

Batteriser is crafted from stainless steel at 0.1 mm thin to fit back neatly back into your devices’ battery compartments, and comes in 2 variations: for side-by-side batteries or batteries that are stacked, like in a keyboard.

Umm... when did this happen?

That is indeed something new! What about devices where batteries are stacked, side by side?
So they are bringing out 2 versions of every sleeve, 8 in total?

[photon]

Korean SKTA is not really a big player in the VC California world. They haven't been around for more than a couple of years. They are focusing on reviving the Silicon Valley hardware business, instead of investing in software, like other VC companies. Batteroo is their first venture into the consumer product arena. By the look of things, not much 'energy' went into assessing the final product performance.
Up to one million dollars is allocated to each start-up, for an equity of 25%, with a revenue stream or acquisition within 3 years. Their overall initial funding was 10 million dollars in 2013.
They have 5 start-ups on their books (incubator space for 11), with, AFAIK, no return on investment yet (target 8~10%).
Incidentally, the tech start-up failure rate in California is hovering around 90%. The failure rate for VC-backed companies is still about 75%.
The odds don't look good for SKTA.

Excellent review of SKTA credentials. An inexperienced VC with money, but no tech savvy, falling for the story of a self-aggrandizing, but mediocre, technical leadership. A short expected lifetime.

In case you want to compare SKTA/Batteriser with a real VC/Startup: http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1327894

[EEVblog]

Update.

That was a pretty lame update after 11 days. No detail at all.
Their campaign was a classic example of about how to do everything right (from a marketing/sales and running a campaign perspective). Can't say the same for the updates after it's closed.

[Bud]

No, the update was good: what the backers learned from it was:

"This is only the beginning"
 

[edy]

Batteriser is crafted from stainless steel at 0.1 mm thin to fit back neatly back into your devices’ battery compartments, and comes in 2 variations: for side-by-side batteries or batteries that are stacked, like in a keyboard.

My take on this is they have different versions for "stacked" (i.e. in-series) batteries versus "side-by-side" (i.e. parallel) battery configurations. This is to adjust for the in-efficiencies of multiple boost converters in series. At least that's what I read into this announcement.

NOW.... as far as the general lay public understanding what this means for their toys and appliances, I don't know. Some people have a hard time even putting batteries in the correct polarity orientation. Now ask them to decypher the circuit internals (which may not be entirely obvious) into whether those "side-by-side" batteries are anti-parallel or going in the same direction, and whether the ends are common or not, or wired in some other way. It will be hard to sometimes figure out for some people.

Is this what they mean or is it something else?

[ez24]

"side-by-side" (i.e. parallel) battery configurations

Maybe the "parallel" configuration is the case they come in?  Parallel packing vs serial packing 

[EEVblog]

Batteriser is crafted from stainless steel at 0.1 mm thin to fit back neatly back into your devices’ battery compartments, and comes in 2 variations: for side-by-side batteries or batteries that are stacked, like in a keyboard.

My take on this is they have different versions for "stacked" (i.e. in-series) batteries versus "side-by-side" (i.e. parallel) battery configurations. This is to adjust for the in-efficiencies of multiple boost converters in series. At least that's what I read into this announcement.
NOW.... as far as the general lay public understanding what this means for their toys and appliances, I don't know. Some people have a hard time even putting batteries in the correct polarity orientation. Now ask them to decypher the circuit internals (which may not be entirely obvious) into whether those "side-by-side" batteries are anti-parallel or going in the same direction, and whether the ends are common or not, or wired in some other way. It will be hard to sometimes figure out for some people.

It will be impossible for most, and they won't even bother checking even if they could.
And what type do backers get shipped? Will they send out a survey asking people which type they want?
This has all the hallmarks of a last minute  worthy oopsy.

[drussell]

That was a pretty lame update after 11 days. No detail at all.
Their campaign was a classic example of about how to do everything right (from a marketing/sales and running a campaign perspective). Can't say the same for the updates after it's closed.

Yes, slick and effective marketing BS, for sure....  Actual information or useful data and statistics, any technical information at all, anywhere?  Not so much!

Batteriser is crafted from stainless steel at 0.1 mm thin to fit back neatly back into your devices’ battery compartments, and comes in 2 variations: for side-by-side batteries or batteries that are stacked, like in a keyboard.

My take on this is they have different versions for "stacked" (i.e. in-series) batteries versus "side-by-side" (i.e. parallel) battery configurations. This is to adjust for the in-efficiencies of multiple boost converters in series. At least that's what I read into this announcement.
NOW.... as far as the general lay public understanding what this means for their toys and appliances, I don't know. Some people have a hard time even putting batteries in the correct polarity orientation. Now ask them to decypher the circuit internals (which may not be entirely obvious) into whether those "side-by-side" batteries are anti-parallel or going in the same direction, and whether the ends are common or not, or wired in some other way. It will be hard to sometimes figure out for some people.

It will be impossible for most, and they won't even bother checking even if they could.
And what type do backers get shipped? Will they send out a survey asking people which type they want?
This has all the hallmarks of a last minute  worthy oopsy.

They've certainly had several worthy oopsies during this cherade and they still obviously seem to be engineering these things on-the-fly, as it were...  This is not at all how you bring an honest, quality product to market, regardless of how "slick" your marketing department is. 

What utter sleaze....  SHOW US THE NUMBERS!!  Give us REAL data!!!

As an aside, I hadn't even thought about those rare situations where cells are actually connected in parallel.  While it does present problems with bare cells (they must be totally matched or will want to try to drain the stonger cell into the weaker cell,) that does add an extra dimension to the circuit design I hadn't considered, though many topologies will essentially just work, at least to the extent that they may not "fight" each other trying to regulate to an exact voltage with no load, for example, but it may not be trivial to make them drain both batteries evenly.)  That certainly requires some consideration, for sure!

[AmmoJammo]

So if there's two versions of each batteriser, which version are the backers getting, and why are they only just now being told about it?

[EEVblog]

Yes, slick and effective marketing BS, for sure....  Actual information or useful data and statistics, any technical information at all, anywhere?  Not so much!

That stuff doesn't matter when you are strictly (as I am) talking about their actual campaign. I can't see how anyone could argue it was not executed to almost flawless perfection.

They've certainly had several worthy oopsies during this cherade and they still obviously seem to be engineering these things on-the-fly, as it were...  This is not at all how you bring an honest, quality product to market, regardless of how "slick" your marketing department is. 

That's got nothing to do with the running of the campaign though. Different issue.

[drussell]

That stuff doesn't matter when you are strictly (as I am) talking about their actual campaign. I can't see how anyone could argue it was not executed to almost flawless perfection.
...
That's got nothing to do with the running of the campaign though. Different issue.

Oh, most definitely!

It just seems to me that with any kind of (especially crowdfunded) technilogical gadget, anything that is promoted without supplying any kind of technical information to back up claims or properly describe what the campaign is actually peddling should be the kind of thing that would raise red flags, even to some non-technical-type people. 

[Smokey]

That stuff doesn't matter when you are strictly (as I am) talking about their actual campaign. I can't see how anyone could argue it was not executed to almost flawless perfection.
...
That's got nothing to do with the running of the campaign though. Different issue.

Oh, most definitely!

It just seems to me that with any kind of (especially crowdfunded) technological gadget, anything that is promoted without supplying any kind of technical information to back up claims or properly describe what the campaign is actually peddling should be the kind of thing that would raise red flags, even to some non-technical-type people. 

The problem is they did apparently have technical information, at least from the perspective of non-technical people.  Their videos and presentations had "charts" and "graphs" and "equipment tests" and "experts".  If you didn't know what voltage or current or an oscilloscope was, it's good enough.

[Galenbo]

... or just the AA, which is the only one we have seen a working prototype of.

I didn't see that.

IIRC you keep repeating this scepticism, and I don't know why.
They have clearly shown prototypes, reputable people have physically seen them work, they exist.
No one, except you it seems, seems to think they don't exist.
Making a tiny boost converter like this is not rocket science.

Just because they did not show prototypes. And I did not see a working prototype in their videos.
Nothing changed. I saw renderings, I saw a metal shell. I saw a test setup with a monkey.
Just like everybody else.

You mentioned the "reputable" "reporters" before. You did not say who they are, what they know, they did not make/show a report.
You just mentioned they said "it worked", without specifying how, where, why, conditions, report.

What's the minimum order quantity for the needed-chip-miniaturisation?
4? To make 4 working-prototypes? I think it's more like 4000 or 40000, but please feel free to correct me here,
to give examples of low-quantitiy chip manifacturers, lead times, costs.

[jippie]

Batteriser is crafted from stainless steel at 0.1 mm thin to fit back neatly back into your devices’ battery compartments, and comes in 2 variations: for side-by-side batteries or batteries that are stacked, like in a keyboard.

Umm... when did this happen?

The

, and comes in 2 variations: for side-by-side batteries or batteries that are stacked, like in a keyboard

part disappeared from the batteriser website.

[Fungus]

Just because they did not show prototypes. And I did not see a working prototype in their videos.

What about the Apple keyboard video?

[jippie]

Just because they did not show prototypes. And I did not see a working prototype in their videos.

What about the Apple keyboard video?

I've been in doubt of mentioning my thought for many weeks, but although this video may very well be an actual working demonstration of the device, at the same time there is no guarantee that you are actually looking at the keyboard that is paired with the laptop. I mean it would be trivial to have a second keyboard nearby that is actually showing its stats on the computer screen.

[Fungus]

What about the Apple keyboard video?

I've been in doubt of mentioning my thought for many weeks, but although this video may very well be an actual working demonstration of the device, at the same time there is no guarantee that you are actually looking at the keyboard that is paired with the laptop. I mean it would be trivial to have a second keyboard nearby that is actually showing its stats on the computer screen.

I seem to remember reading that they did this demo live in front of some journalists.

But ... I just googled a bit and I can't find any links now.

Maybe it was just hearsay. Anybody?

[AmmoJammo]

Batteriser is crafted from stainless steel at 0.1 mm thin to fit back neatly back into your devices’ battery compartments, and comes in 2 variations: for side-by-side batteries or batteries that are stacked, like in a keyboard.

Umm... when did this happen?

The

, and comes in 2 variations: for side-by-side batteries or batteries that are stacked, like in a keyboard

part disappeared from the batteriser website.

Lmao!
Brilliant! So are there two versions or not?

Does this mean the device they're supplying people is already know to not fit all devices? Possibly only fit half the devices?

So, 50% of the time you can use a batteriser in a device, that 20% of the time leaves 80% battery capacity remaining.

I like those odds!

[EEVblog]

Just because they did not show prototypes. And I did not see a working prototype in their videos.

You didn't want to see a working prototype in their videos, so you didn't 

You mentioned the "reputable" "reporters" before. You did not say who they are, what they know, they did not make/show a report.
You just mentioned they said "it worked", without specifying how, where, why, conditions, report.

Here is one:
https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html
I have spoken to him directly, he has seen it working.

[EEVblog]

part disappeared from the batteriser website.

Technical information appearing and disappearing from their website after someone mentions it on here could become a drinking game!

[jippie]

part disappeared from the batteriser website.

Technical information appearing and disappearing from their website after someone mentions it on could become a drinking game!

Or they're testing version control tools.

[Godzil]

part disappeared from the batteriser website.

Technical information appearing and disappearing from their website after someone mentions it on could become a drinking game!

Or they're testing version control tools.

But not really good at?

Maybe it's not version control tools, but they test their backup solution, and it seems that it fail since the restored version is that older...

[McBryce]

Really bad choice of lighting in the second picture. Looks like the device on the right is burnt to a crisp

Bryce.

[Fungus]

https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html
I have spoken to him directly, he has seen it working.

Yep. That was the one I'd lost...

That eye-catching 800 percent improvement has been realized on some devices, Roohparvar says, but perhaps more importantly, his company has seen enough dramatic improvement in general to make the product worthwhile to regular consumers. “A golf GPS ran out in 2 hours,” he says. “We put the Batteriser on and it runs over 10 hours. That’s 5 times!”

He can't actually name the device that got 800% improvement?

Yahoo Makers was only able to try out the Batteriser briefly in our offices.

After Roohparvar successfully demonstrated the Batteriser prototype in his Apple keyboard, we tried it out in a regular flashlight and in a Bluetooth mouse. This time, though, it failed to make contact and power the devices. Roohparvar thought the positive tip wasn’t quite lined up where it needed to be and said the production version would be much more resilient. He offered to give Yahoo Makers another unit to test soon.

They couldn't fiddle with it until it made contact...?

[Rasz]

I love conspiracy theories, so

Yahoo Makers was only able to try out the Batteriser briefly in our offices.

After Roohparvar successfully demonstrated the Batteriser prototype in his Apple keyboard, we tried it out in a regular flashlight and in a Bluetooth mouse. This time, though, it failed to make contact and power the devices. Roohparvar thought the positive tip wasn’t quite lined up where it needed to be and said the production version would be much more resilient. He offered to give Yahoo Makers another unit to test soon.

They couldn't fiddle with it until it made contact...?

this fits nicely with two keyboards and non functional product mockup scenario.