EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[Joule Thief]

one day this is all going to end and I will have to find something else to read with my morning coffee 

it is a shame as I have learned a great deal from all the responses

maybe I was too quick to see an end to this.

standing by for more comedy gold 

[Fungus]

They've got facebook? 

Oh, there's some good material there...

Batteriser will definitely ship by new year! (Chinese new year?)


Sales are on the increase in Denmark!


The C-cell Batterisers are nearly ready!

[Fungus]

That's beautiful, how to destroy your public image in 1 lesson and less than 5 minutes...

These sudden outbursts seem like a problem with drink/drugs to me.

[EEVblog]

Interesting look at the C cell holder:

[Chipguy]

Batteriser comments on the Indiegogo campain:
"Relax old man. I'm half your age and twice your strength..." and
"I will check it (customers physical strength) out myself. I'm also willing to bet you probalby smell like the dumpsters in Milpitas...."

What the
Seriously ??
Really ?

No, no, no, noooo professional company would ever ever ever do this. Not even remotely. That is beyond insane 
If an employee of a decent run company would post such a comment online the next comment would be an apology and a comment like: "We apologize for the comments of our (former) colleague and are sad to hear that you think this way, however we are still going to reward your investment by shipping out the reward blah blah blah..." 

I have never ever seen this in my life.
That's a new quality of company insanity.

BTW: We need an emoticon "sheaking head in disbelief" like this one 
Edit: Typos corrected

[Fungus]

Batteriser comments on the Indiegogo campain:
"Relax old man. I'm half your age and twice your strength..." and
"I will check it (customers physical strength) out myself. I'm also willing to bet you probalby smell like the dumpsters in Milpitas...."

What the
Seriously ??

I want to know how he knows what the dumpsters in Milpitas smell like.

[SL4P]

no, noooo professional company would ever ever ever do this. Not even remotely. That is beyond insane 

Well, of course Batteriser could distance themselves by saying this 'Ali Rooparvar' character is a shill member of the detractor community - trying to cast Batteroo in a bad light - thus proving Bob's bleating that the world is against his and Franky's innovation and world-saving inventions...
And all you naysayers - Ali is an expert in marketing according to his LinkedIn profile...

If anyone can snatch the originating iP in some way - to link them later ?

I want to know how he knows what the dumpsters in Milpitas smell like.

Aargh! - flashback to Ali's mum... 

Interesting look at the C cell holder:

Strange mechanical construction ??
It looks like they routed the edge of the PCB laminate to accept the folded flanges of the sleeve ?!  Mechanical strength - not if it's done that way...
Maybe needed to reduce the overall height of the PCB + battery + sleeve ?
(... or it won't physically last long enough to test the 800% claim !)

[Fungus]

I want to know how he knows what the dumpsters in Milpitas smell like.

I googled it and all I could find was a reference to a dead girl being found in one (Milpitas dumpster). 

Is there something we should know about Ali?

[Delta]

goes, they are nothing short of the laughing stock of the industry.
Almost everyone I meet jokes about Batteriser, and even top companies involved in the battery business have expressed to me continual facepalms at the Batteriser claims and their videos.

A-ha!  So you ARE involved with Big Battery after all!

Anyway, my sympathies are with poor Ali, he's going to be waking up with a stinking hangover and a stern bollocking from his faither and uncle...

[FrankBuss]

Interesting look at the C cell holder:

They didn't get the text right? Both "E"s have missing bars. And why is it tilted relative to the battery? Looks like it doesn't really fit over the battery.

[McBryce]

The PCB looks like it's made of corrigated cardboard too

McBryce.

[SL4P]

The PCB looks like it's made of corrigated cardboard too
McBryce.

Laminated phenolic - not fibreglass cheap old style, china low-cost.

I want to know how he knows what the dumpsters in Milpitas smell like.

I googled it and all I could find was a reference to a dead girl being found in one (Milpitas dumpster). 

Dumpster Diving in California is more exciting than Castle Hill !

[samgab]

edit, ahh, someone else got in first... Ignore this post 

[Wytnucls]

Quote: 'Batteriser increases sales in Denmark region'

First, Denmark is a country, not a region.
Second, when you translate the Jylland-Posten article (by Danish freelance reporter based in San Francisco), you realize that sales aren't mentioned at all. It is just a rehash of Batteroo's press releases and the usual drivel:

"You increase the service life of between 15 and 800 per cent, depending on which device batteries used"said Bob Roohparvar.

Batterisers headquarters is located in an anonymous building in Sunnyvale south of San Francisco. It flows with batteries, wires, power meters and gadgets everywhere. A homemade Storm P-like mechanical arm presses automatically on the touch screen of a GPS-meter, while Xbox controllers buzz and Brio railways, toy robots and a mechanical monkey that can beat the pelvis, waiting to be awakened. This is where Bob Roohparvar and company test how Batteriser works in different devices.

To test whether Batteriser now also works, we put a nearly empty battery in a small Brio trains and lit it. The train crawled forward across the railway tracks. We measured the battery to still have 1 V back and sat as the small Batteriser jacket on. And immediately popped off the train energetic start browsing. "In general, we measured that we increase train speed by 60 per cent.," Said Bob Roohparvar.

Battery industry has no interest in increasing the battery life dramatically, as they will lose money on it," said Bob Roohparvar

Bob Roohparvar claims that bloggers often have been bought by battery companies. He points out that physics professors from San Jose State University have tested Batteriser and confirmed that the wrapper utilizes the power remaining in the battery, like the independent American testing laboratory UL has tested Batteriser on a Garmin GPS. With an ordinary battery GPS went out after an hour and 43 minutes while it with Batteriser in conjunction entire 10 hours and 12 minutes - exactly six times as long.

[AmmoJammo]

We measured the battery to still have 1 V

In general, we measured that we increase train speed by 60 per cent.

 

So, the cells weren't depleted enough for the train to not operate, and the batteriser made it run faster.... not longer of course, as they're using the available energy quicker... just faster... for what, 5 seconds? 2 seconds?

[Fungus]

They didn't get the text right? Both "E"s have missing bars.

Each Batteriser prototype is cunningly fingerprinted.

If a prototype leaks out to the press they'll be able to trace the guilty party and take action.

(Remember: Ali has the strength of two men and you could end up in a dumpster in Milpitas)

[Fungus]

We measured the battery to still have 1 V

In general, we measured that we increase train speed by 60 per cent.

 

So, the cells weren't depleted enough for the train to not operate, and the batteriser made it run faster.... not longer of course, as they're using the available energy quicker... just faster... for what, 5 seconds? 2 seconds?

1V open circuit, no doubt.

...and the speed increase doesn't matter if it only runs for 20 seconds. 

[Kalvin]

Batteriser video, explaining how to calculate the remaining energy in the battery:



Scroll to timeline 8:20 and start watching.

At 8:57 - 9:03: "Oops, I just created energy from nothing."

The presenter missed one crucial point, which will break the batteriser's claims totally. He believes, that when using a boost-converter putting out 1.5 constant voltage and loaded with a 100mA constant current, the battery will still be able to sustain supplying energy equally long as the battery loaded with the 100mA constant current without the boost-converter. Major fail. They cannot create energy from nothing ie. when the battery is empty it is still empty even if you apply a boost-converter.

As Jay_Diddy_B has shown in his simulations, a device properly designed, will actually have less running time with the batteries that without batteriser. You may also read this statement as: using a batteriser will shorten the available running time of properly designed battery operated electrical appliance. However, in some badly designed battery-operated gadgets you may see some improvement.

[Godzil]

No what he say is correct, for a current point of view, which is, in reality false when you remember that to calculate the remaining in a battery if it's charge, not current, and even voltage is not even the correct unit.

That's why we now use Power (Wh/Watt) instead of current to tell the capacity of a battery.

P = U * I

If in his case I is a constant, U is the first thing he draw, so basically, P have the exact same shape as U, that's why we can use U to mesure the remaining capacity of a battery.

But this is true ONLY because we are running with a constant current. If we were in a constant power condition, the graph would be something else.

[AmmoJammo]

In that video, with the digital camera, they measure it to have a 1.3amp current draw at one point.

The butteriser wouldn't even run this...

I found the same thing with my little boost converter, it could run the camera, but as soon as the flash capacitor tried to charge, the camera shut off...

[EEVblog]

At 8:57 - 9:03: "Oops, I just created energy from nothing."
The presenter missed one crucial point, which will break the batteriser's claims totally. He believes, that when using a boost-converter putting out 1.5 constant voltage and loaded with a 100mA constant current, the battery will still be able to sustain supplying energy equally long as the battery loaded with the 100mA constant current without the boost-converter. Major fail. They cannot create energy from nothing ie. when the battery is empty it is still empty even if you apply a boost-converter.

Correct.
His explanation is only valid when you have a constant current load on the battery. Only time matters in that case, which is what you see using my graph technique of remaining capacity, it's essentially linear and hence only becomes a function of time.


But he still doesn't understand (or if he does he doesn't explain it and is simplifying) that true battery capacity is measured in units of energy (Wh).
Hence why my graph is not completely linear.

But very few modern products are constant current load. And none are constant current when you introduce the Batteriser!
The Batteriser changes the discharge response curve for the product.

[EEVblog]

goes, they are nothing short of the laughing stock of the industry.
Almost everyone I meet jokes about Batteriser, and even top companies involved in the battery business have expressed to me continual facepalms at the Batteriser claims and their videos.

A-ha!  So you ARE involved with Big Battery after all!

LOL, yeah, you got me, I'm paid by BIG BATTERY! 
Seriously, some companies and well respected players in the industry (not battery manufactures) have contacted me to express their bewilderment at Batteriser and their claims, and to thank me for debunking it.
Some even considering debunking it themselves, but ultimately deemed it too stupid to waste their time on.

[Wytnucls]

Seems like their office is full of battery-powered gizmos, all primed for misleading demonstrations. These people are engineers, where are the datasheets, graphs and efficiency curves? 

[Fungus]

But this is true ONLY because we are running with a constant current.

Yep.

And the problem is that constant current devices get less efficient as you raise the input voltage.

Think: LM7805 voltage regulator - the higher the input voltage, the more heat it produces.

And ... what do Batterisers do?? They raise the input voltage above what a battery would normally supply. That's their only purpose

This means a Batterised constant current device converts more of the battery power to heat so the battery will last less time. 

He conveniently forgets to mention this in the video.

[Fungus]

Some even considering debunking it themselves, but ultimately deemed it too stupid to waste their time on.

And the conspiracy theorists will go mental if big battery publicly denounces it.

Better to keep quiet and let the thing implode all by itself.