EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[Fungus]

Yeah, I have to chuckle every time I see a Batteriser backer on IGG talk of a lawsuit.  There is no lawsuit.  There can be no lawsuit.

IANAL but there might be ... it's still fraud if you can prove it's a deliberate scam and they never intended to ship anything.

People's intentions are very hard to prove in a court though. All Bob+Ali have to do is pretend they're genuine idiots who really thought it would work. Case dismissed.

As fot the Energizer thing, remember that is NOT a lawsuit either.  Energizer opposed their application for the Batteriser trademark.  If Batteriser SHIPS with the Batteriser name without getting that cleared up (and there are several possible ways that can be done in these circumstances)  one way or another, THAT would open them up to lawsuits with potentially devastating damages.

As it sits right now, Energizer is NOT suing Batteriser. 
>

That might be why they haven't mentioned the lawsuit to anybody.

If they can land a "Walmart" type of customer they can tell them "Oh, BTW, you'll have to change the name... Energiser has a problem with this one".

A name change is no big deal to that sort of customer.

[rich]

Yeah, I have to chuckle every time I see a Batteriser backer on IGG talk of a lawsuit.  There is no lawsuit.  There can be no lawsuit.

IGG commenters throwing the word lawsuit around as a threat is amusing but I don't agree that there is zero action available to backers. Yes, they gave money to IGG who passed it onto Batteroo, but IGG terms says the Campaign Owner shall deliver the perks, that's part of the agreement which wouldn't be in place if they were simply privately funding Batteroo.

Bob et al. would claim they ran the campaign responsibly, backers will claim otherwise. They may fail to deliver perks and run out of money claiming all sorts of unforeseen circumstances (#bigbattery, #eevblog, #landslide) so backers may get nothing out of an action other than the satisfaction of dragging perceived villains through the wringer and an eye-watering legal bill.

[Fungus]

Bob et al. would claim they ran the campaign responsibly, backers will claim otherwise. They may fail to deliver perks and run out of money claiming all sorts of unforeseen circumstances (#bigbattery, #eevblog, #landslide) so backers may get nothing out of an action other than the satisfaction of dragging perceived villains through the wringer and an eye-watering legal bill.

What if (for example) it can be proved that the landslide didn't affect Batteroo.

Shenzhen is 2000 square kilometers (769 square miles). The landslide affected 0.1 square kilometers. Do the math. 

I bet there's other stuff that could be tested/demonstrated in court, too.

eg. Dave's measurement of the exact battery voltage where the monkey stops working is quite revealing. The batteries have to be basically dead for the monkey to stop moving. There's no way Batteroo didn't know that. They had to be using carefully prepared batteries in the video therefore the monkey video is deliberately misleading.

Bob+Ali's email is probably a fun read. I wonder if it could be subpoenaed intact.

[rich]

What if (for example) it can be proved that the landslide didn't affect Batteroo.

Just another brick in the wall of false representations, I'm not sure I see anything particularly special about this brick.

Shenzhen is 2000 square kilometers (769 square miles). The landslide affected 0.1 square kilometers. Do the math. 

Yup, math tends to zero, especially if you increase the denominator to include Taiwan where Batteroo allegedly have boots on the ground sorting out CM issues.

I bet there's other stuff that could be tested/demonstrated in court, too.

Bob+Ali's email is probably a fun read. I wonder if it could be subpoenaed intact.

There's a whole catalogue of evidence in this thread which was subsequently deleted/modified. Emails would certainly make for an interesting read.

[Fungus]

What if (for example) it can be proved that the landslide didn't affect Batteroo.

Just another brick in the wall of false representations, I'm not sure I see anything particularly special about this brick.

It's very provable, very black/white. Either the Batteriser factory was underneath that hill or it wasn't.

(There's not many components in a Batteriser, it would be difficult for it to indirectly affect their supply chain).

[rich]

Ah I see. As for indirectly affecting the supply chain - in the same paragraph Batteroo deployed the landslide excuse they also said final assembly is underway and packaging is nearly complete. So either they were all destroyed in December, or they just need putting in boxes and posting. Thats sounds quite provable too.

[Brumby]

This confusion over backing vs. buying isn't helped when Ali and Bob Roohparvar were both posting Updates saying:

"Only NN hours left to buy batterisers on Indiegogo!
It's the final stretch of our pre-sale, and we are thankful for all of your contributions! 
In these few final days, don’t forget to refer your friends,  and be rewarded with free Batterisers for every friend who buys. Just use the “link” icon on the left side of the IGG page and share with all your friends via e-mail or social media."

I'm no lawyer - but that looks pretty much like a rather specific offer.  While Indiegogo may have their basic model defined as a 'contributions' structure, it does not preclude a campaign from offering more concrete rewards.  When you use a phrase like: "Only NN hours left to buy batterisers on Indiegogo!", as I see it, the mechanism is no longer following the 'give your money and cross your fingers you'll get something', but a simple, unambiguous offer of goods for sale.  When such an offer is accepted and money paid, as I understand it, that is a contract.

Offer - acceptance - consideration ... It's all there.

[EEVblog]

It's not even a pre order though (as far as I understand) - this is where further confusion comes in!  You are not committing to purchase anything, you are not pre ordering anything, you are DONATING money to a cause, and that cause may offer "perks" as a token of their appreciation.
Admittedly, many campaigners DO use IGG / KS as a pre ordering system, but it is simply not.  Backers need to be aware of this.  And also of the laws of physics...

Unfortunately the tax department doesn't see it that way. Extensive talks with my accountant came to the conclusion that I had to pay tax on the Kickstarter income, it's wasn't a "donation". The promise and intent is enough to justify it as income.

[SL4P]

...don’t forget to refer your friends,  and be rewarded with free Batterisers for every friend who buys...

That 'referral' offer opens up an interesting legal position for contributors that actually made referrals to other 'investors'.
Batteroo stepped outside the 'investment' concept to a 'pay & reward' model - which they can't satisfy on either side.

Any lawyers here?
Also, between this offer and the basic IGG / campaign terms - are there any terms that are in breach of trade-practices legislation in various countries?  IGG or Batteroo may be exposed to statutory refunds in some regions.

ADDED: What about the history of including (tarnishing) the names of others that have been mentioned repeatedly - Walmart etc...  as participants in his grand plan to take over the battery world.  If these people all took Bob to task - his house would be gone in a heartbeat to fund the doomed legal defence.

[Delta]

Unfortunately the tax department doesn't see it that way. Extensive talks with my accountant came to the conclusion that I had to pay tax on the Kickstarter income, it's wasn't a "donation". The promise and intent is enough to justify it as income.

Interesting.  However in most counties (the UK definitely) the right hand and the left hand don't always do the same thing; tax law and consumer law may well follow very different definitions!

[rich]

Is "charge up" an internet meme or colloquialism I've missed? I see it in all the recent Facebook posts from Batteriser, and think that it's just deliberately misleading when placed near the phrase "dead battery" in this context.

[EEVblog]

So March is done, and no update for two months now.
They obviously have had nothing good to report.
I hope it doesn't end like this with a whimper.

[Muttley Snickers]

It couldn't possibly have anything to do with the conditions listed below could it ?, seems to be a popular tactic used by some unscrupulous merchants.

https://chargebacks911.com/chargeback-time-limit/

[rrinker]

 Then there's how you really do it - I backed those Engineer Excuse Dice on Kickstarter, just because I thought it was pretty funny.  It was fully funded and they are expected to ship early May. There have been regular updates - in fact there was one less than a week ago, and there was another today in which the poster apologized for not posting more! This is a pretty low risk, low tech product, and the guy's apologizing for not updating more than once a week.
 The Batteroo's minions are no longer even bother to delete the negative comments doesn't bode well for continued drama. I think our show may be nearly over.

[rich]

They are aggressively deleting from Facebook, swinging the ban hammer and ramping up the hype. I assume that's all outsourced to the JPR Communications company minions. Bob hasn't posted for 2 weeks on IGG so he must be overseas lovingly hand soldering custom silicon for us to meet all the extra demand the new marketing push is generating.

Or maybe he's been busy posting the $250000 bail for the man with the same surname in Saratoga Ca. that was arrested on March 9th ** Disclaimer I have no proof of any connection between Bob and the guy in the news story so I won't be posting any links, but my sleep deprived mind enjoys the drama of thinking it could be connected    **

[Bud]

As soon as you see a "photo" of a product with mirrored reflection you can be damn sure this is a CAD rendering.

[alsetalokin4017]

As soon as you see a "photo" of a product with mirrored reflection you can be damn sure this is a CAD rendering.

Oh really?

[station240]

Unfortunately the tax department doesn't see it that way. Extensive talks with my accountant came to the conclusion that I had to pay tax on the Kickstarter income, it's wasn't a "donation". The promise and intent is enough to justify it as income.

Ouch, I can see how some well planned campaigns could come unglued if they didn't take income tax into account, or simply raised a lot of money and put the creators into a higher tax bracket.
It's a weird feeling when a scammer goes to jail, simply for not paying tax on their illgotten booty.

[EEVblog]

Or maybe he's been busy posting the $250000 bail for the man with the same surname in Saratoga Ca. that was arrested on March 9th ** Disclaimer I have no proof of any connection between Bob and the guy in the news story so I won't be posting any links, but my sleep deprived mind enjoys the drama of thinking it could be connected    **

It is absolutely not the same person. Only the surname in common.

[rich]

Agreed. I was thinking if it was a family member who needed help then most people would naturally prioritise that over posting updates on IGG.

[Fungus]

Agreed. I was thinking if it was a family member who needed help then most people would naturally prioritise that over posting updates on IGG.

Bob told us that it's all the long, late night telephone calls to China that's preventing him from posting any updates.

[mikerj]

It is absolutely not the same person. Only the surname in common.

Definitely not Bob, though it looks like he used to live in Saratoga.  Quite possibly a family member given they share the same surname, location and moral/ethical behaviour...

[Muttley Snickers]

The first of those two cartoon videos has been removed, I expect that the other one will probably soon follow.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg904043/#msg904043

[Smokey]

"Tap more energy"

It should have been "Tap THAT energy!"

[AmmoJammo]

there's no visitors posts at all on the facebook page anymore...