EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[Mr.B]

The UL report has got to be a joke. You click for the full report on their website and it gives you 3 pdf pages, one of which is a blank. The other one we've already seen before. Where's that data? No tables, no curves, no signatures or dates...

Yes, absolutely fake.
I hope UL sue their arses off... very publicly...

[Fungus]

The UL report has got to be a joke. You click for the full report on their website and it gives you 3 pdf pages, one of which is a blank. The other one we've already seen before. Where's that data? No tables, no curves, explanations, no signatures or dates...

Its not blank! It clearly has printed on it "THIS PAGE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK"

That's quite common in this sort of document - it's so you can't write anything on that page and show it to other people claiming it was in the original.

Why they'd add a blank page to a 2 page 'report'? That's a different question...

[Mr.B]

Why they'd add a blank page to a 2 page 'report'? That's a different question...

It is because they faked the report in MS Word... Suffered from "font-itis" between pages... Ran out of BS ideas at the start of that page.

[Galenbo]

It seems the Batteriser CEO is going to claim in this newspaper article that I'm working for Duracell 



How on earth can the investors let this farce go on?

I wouldn't even say yes or no to this claim, but question the initiator.

Why does he start claiming this? On what events or evidence does he base his claims? What's the logic this guy uses from idea to quote?
What's the money he makes by claiming such things? Did he claim similar things before?...

[Halcyon]

It seems the Batteriser CEO is going to claim in this newspaper article that I'm working for Duracell 



How on earth can the investors let this farce go on?

Dave, obviously Batteriser are trying to discredit you by any means necessary. Trying to cast even the slightest amount of doubt into who you are and what you're saying.

But Hannah Francis of Fairfax should know better. This "claim" that you work for Duracell is so easily disproven. Had Hannah done 5 minutes of research (by making a simple phone call to Procter & Gamble's own media team), she'd realise the credibility of Roohparvar and Batteriser isn't worth the twitter or e-mail it's written on.

@han_francisco: To save you a few minutes, the direct contact for media enquiries at P&G (owners of 'Duracell') contact detail removed by Moderator

I tend to agree there is a news-worthy story in this... it's just not the story Batteriser is trying to spin. Dave, it's time to turn Batteriser's own stupidity into a positive for you.

(Maybe http://www.abc.net.au/tv/thecheckout/ would be interested in doing a piece on not believing everything you read on Crowd Funding sites?)

Also, let me translate "Publishing soon" as "I might look at writing something if there is something to write about. Either way, the paper will still continue publishing as per normal".

[Wytnucls]

SAN JOSE, Calif., Aug. 21, 2015 /PRNewswire/ -- Batteroo Inc. today announced that David Martin, Min Park and Bob Pavey have joined its Board of Directors.

'Park currently serves as President of SK Telecom Americas, and SKTA InnoPartners, a wholly owned subsidiary of SK Telecom, Korea.'

Talk of a conflict of interest!

Is SKTA in on the scam?

http://news.sys-con.com/node/3423310

It seems like they're hell-bent on releasing their pathetic gizmo on the unsuspecting American public.

[MikeW]

The problem with a news story about this is simplifying the technical details to something that most people reading/watching news are going to understand or have the attention span to want to understand.

How many editors are going to run with a story about discharge curves, internal resistance, boost convertors and cut-off voltages? Technical publications? sure. Six O'clock news? No way.

If they really wanted to run something they would have to focus not on why it's not a very good product, but more about ever changing claims and dodgy certification.

Even then, what have you really got, 'Breaking news, lies being told on internet'.

[nitro2k01]

How many editors are going to run with a story about discharge curves, internal resistance, boost convertors and cut-off voltages? Technical publications? sure. Six O'clock news? No way.

Even if perhaps not six o'clock news material, what would convince Joe Schmoe is empirical battery life data. Compare the battery life with and without the dvice on as many devices as possible and show a bar graph comparing the times. That's a juicy headline.

[MikeW]

I don't recall seeing many news stories simply disproving a products efficacy.

UNLESS that product is something that could potentially place users in danger as result.

'Product not very good' is not a juicy headline. 'Product endangers safety' is what editors want'

[Halcyon]

How many editors are going to run with a story about discharge curves, internal resistance, boost convertors and cut-off voltages? Technical publications? sure. Six O'clock news? No way.

Even if perhaps not six o'clock news material, what would convince Joe Schmoe is empirical battery life data. Compare the battery life with and without the dvice on as many devices as possible and show a bar graph comparing the times. That's a juicy headline.

Yup. The media love negativity. People read "scam" stories. Look at A Current Affair and Today Tonight for examples. The average consumer couldn't care less about the science, but they will certainly take issue when they are being ripped off (or might eventually be ripped off).

When was the last time you heard "How to avoid being ripped off, tune it at 6..." or "Australian's being suckered in by Crowd Funding... how YOU can avoid becoming a victim..."? Probably within the last 12 hours.

[Godzil]

I've finally found who's who.

Look at that Duracell webpage:

http://professional.duracell.com/en/ultra-power

They clearly says "Ultra Power delivers up to 40% more power"

So Bateroo is in fact Big Battery, and Duracell already use half a batteriser in their battery!

I'm sure of that, and all this rant agains Dave is because they want to hire him

That's what they told me, or at least what The Voice told me!!!

[MikeW]

Well at best this is one for a slow news day. Just my opinion. Could well be wrong.

[FrankBuss]

It's like they took the first sheet from the UL report (for some other testing), and then appended two more pages that were 100% fabricated by batteroo to make it appear as if the first UL page is related to the following pages.

It looks very different from the usual UL report. And note that the first page uses a serif font and the other two page a sans-serif font. Might be not a fake, but looks like they sent the report and the test setup to them (with lots of money attached) and UL just added the first disclaimer page, and ran the test.

But for all what we know the shunt of the ampmeter could be a few ohms, or the "fresh batteries" were provided by Batteroo, too. How do they define "fresh"? Is this a technical term which you should use in a report? They didn't even noted the battery voltage with no load at test start, which can be a hint how fresh they are. Maybe they mean they were kept in the refrigerator all the time to avoid get rotten

[amyk]

The file seems to have been created on the 11th, while they uploaded their screenshot on the 5th or so?

I cannot find any record of a "Rene Moreno" at UL... The apparent author of the document.
Also, Google search tops "Rene Moreno" for me as an actor... go figure...
Batteriser - "Just an act".

What do you think of these? (Found via this search)

http://www.crescor.com/uploads/documents/UL.pdf
https://www.modularledsystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/IP66-test-report-for-MSLB2-wagon-wheel.pdf

Also, try this search for more to compare.

It's suspicious, but I'm not going to call FAKE FAKE FAKE yet...


Edit: I just saw the creation/modification dates are after Batteriser posted the original image of the "report" (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg747370/#msg747370 ) . The PDF also does not contain XMP metadata and is in v1.5 format with 1.4- compatibility. The other UL reports above have the XMP and are in 1.5 format without 1.4- compatibility. (If you want to test this out for yourself, you'll have to use Acrobat 5.0 - it will be able to open the Batteriser PDF but not those slightly older ones above.)

[AmmoJammo]

The file seems to have been created on the 11th, while they uploaded their screenshot on the 5th or so?

I cannot find any record of a "Rene Moreno" at UL... The apparent author of the document.
Also, Google search tops "Rene Moreno" for me as an actor... go figure...
Batteriser - "Just an act".

What do you think of these? (Found via this search)

http://www.crescor.com/uploads/documents/UL.pdf
https://www.modularledsystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/IP66-test-report-for-MSLB2-wagon-wheel.pdf

Also, try this search for more to compare.

It's suspicious, but I'm not going to call FAKE FAKE FAKE yet...

They have the same title.. "Month Day Year"

But they managed to get the UL logo in the same place on each page, and actually have peoples names, and dates on the document

[Mr.B]

What do you think of these? (Found via this search)

http://www.crescor.com/uploads/documents/UL.pdf
https://www.modularledsystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/IP66-test-report-for-MSLB2-wagon-wheel.pdf

Also, try this search for more to compare.

It's suspicious, but I'm not going to call FAKE FAKE FAKE yet...


Edit: I just saw the creation/modification dates are after Batteriser posted the original image of the "report" (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg747370/#msg747370 ) . The PDF also does not contain XMP metadata and is in v1.5 format with 1.4- compatibility. The other UL reports above have the XMP and are in 1.5 format without 1.4- compatibility. (If you want to test this out for yourself, you'll have to use Acrobat 5.0 - it will be able to open the Batteriser PDF but not those slightly older ones above.)

I am happy to stand corrected...

"It's suspicious, but I'm not going to call FAKE FAKE FAKE yet..."

Yes, I thought very suspicious. It just doesn't add up to what a ligit UL report looks like, and then you find those other two with the same watermarks that appear genuine... beats me...

[AmmoJammo]

The UL "report" from butteriser is probably real....

However, I'm not sure about their test results, and.... wouldn't their test procedure have required someone to sit there, and watch the GPS screen for 10+ hours? 

[EEVblog]

I wouldn't even say yes or no to this claim, but question the initiator.
Why does he start claiming this? On what events or evidence does he base his claims? What's the logic this guy uses from idea to quote?
What's the money he makes by claiming such things? Did he claim similar things before?...

Nope, if you do that you are drawn into the debate.
I simply denied it as you can see on my twitter account, and said it was ludicrous the CEO would even suggest such a thing.

[5ky]

Regarding 5ky's testing and the discrepancy in battery live: could it be that the GPS was using less power in his setting because it was able to actually get satellite signals through a window and didn't have to scan for signals the entire time as perhaps in Baterizers lab?

The power never changes between searching and locked. It's always a constant power draw. I thought the same also, but never saw any difference. I rebooted and tested quite a few times and never saw a difference between when the searching icon is flashing and when it finally locks.

I suppose I could take it to work and see how it does with 38 floors of steel above it shielding from the satellites and see if it changes things

[EEVblog]

SAN JOSE, Calif., Aug. 21, 2015 /PRNewswire/ -- Batteroo Inc. today announced that David Martin, Min Park and Bob Pavey have joined its Board of Directors.
'Park currently serves as President of SK Telecom Americas, and SKTA InnoPartners, a wholly owned subsidiary of SK Telecom, Korea.'
Talk of a conflict of interest!

That's the idea. VC companies very often put their own people on the board of directors. Standard business practice, nothing wrong with it, it's in their best interest to do so.

[onlooker]

Quote from: Wytnucls on Today at 06:58:15 PM

SAN JOSE, Calif., Aug. 21, 2015 /PRNewswire/ -- Batteroo Inc. today announced that David Martin, Min Park and Bob Pavey have joined its Board of Directors.
'Park currently serves as President of SK Telecom Americas, and SKTA InnoPartners, a wholly owned subsidiary of SK Telecom, Korea.'
Talk of a conflict of interest!

That's the idea. VC companies very often put their own people on the board of directors. Standard business practice, nothing wrong with it, it's in their best interest to do so

The more interesting question is about the timing. why this was not done earlier? Or is this about the time SK got involved?

[GNU_Ninja]

I don't recall seeing many news stories simply disproving a products efficacy.

UNLESS that product is something that could potentially place users in danger as result.

'Product not very good' is not a juicy headline. 'Product endangers safety' is what editors want'

Two words; "Advertising Revenue".

You'll hardly ever see product debunking or product safety stories in the press. Such stories could discourage potential advertisers. Always follow the money 

[Fungus]

What do you think of these? (Found via this search)

http://www.crescor.com/uploads/documents/UL.pdf
https://www.modularledsystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/IP66-test-report-for-MSLB2-wagon-wheel.pdf

Interesting that they have the same 'Month Day Year' title and 'Rene Moreno' as author.

But both of those are dated and both of them name specific people from UL (complete with all their contact details). That's a BIG difference.

Batteroo's report looks like something that was sneaked anonymously out of the back door without management approval. Nobody at UL was prepared to put their name on it.

Edit: I just saw the creation/modification dates are after Batteriser posted the original image of the "report"

Edit: That part doesn't worry me. Batteriser might have jumped the gun and published the page (created by them) that they knew their contact at UL was about to sign off on.

(When I say "sign off", I obviously don't mean 'sign', nobody actually put their name to it. I'm sticking with my blackmail theory until proved otherwise...)

[Fungus]

Quote from: Wytnucls on Today at 06:58:15 PM
That's the idea. VC companies very often put their own people on the board of directors. Standard business practice, nothing wrong with it, it's in their best interest to do so

The more interesting question is about the timing. why this was not done earlier? Or is this about the time SK got involved?

He was appointed right about the time Batteroo extended the IndieGoGo campaign for an extra 30 days.

[Fungus]

VC companies very often put their own people on the board of directors. Standard business practice, nothing wrong with it, it's in their best interest to do so.

Yep. Just in case it actually makes a lot of money

(he knows it's unlikely but it doesn't cost him anything to be on the board and he wants to be in on it if it makes millions...)