EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[PeterL]

The TV remote control reappears on the list. Something that was earlier on mentioned by the company as an item where the product wouldn't give advantage.

Yeah, I'v also read that. But if you look at the igg-story the first example they show is a... remote!

[McBryce]

The TV remote control reappears on the list. Something that was earlier on mentioned by the company as an item where the product wouldn't give advantage.

Yeah, I'v also read that. But if you look at the igg-story the first example they show is a... remote!

Maybe they mean this one http://www.amazon.co.uk/Universal-Remote-Massive-Buttons-Satillite/dp/B0011OVNHI

McBryce.

[Stephan_T]

More reference to authority (people on the payroll), instead of unequivocal demonstration of the product capability. 

The adVenture Capitalists seem to be incompetent:

Source: Bateroo's press agency
[...] Blomgren founded and was Chief Scientist of Imara Corp.

That was 2006.

Source: the same press agency working for Imara Corp.:
Imara is Swahili for strength, power and endurance.

Source: blogs.wsj.com, Dec 9, 2009 :
"Turning Out The Lights: Imara, A Lithium-Ion Battery Maker"

Menlo Park, Calif.-based Imara, which on Tuesday announced its closing in a blog post titled 'A Day that will live in Infamy,'[*] had been seeking $20 million from venture capitalists since April, said Neil Maguire, the company’s business development executive, in an inteview. But Imara’s difficulties in setting up manufacturing and its lack of customer-verified technology spooked potential investors, while existing backers Battery Ventures and Nth Power LLC decided to cut their risk exposure to the company.

[*] Who ever wants to (re)write the cry-baby story of "Imara's Life in Infamy" can purchase the domain "imaracorp.com" (where the wsj blog article links to) for $2395 at hugedomains.com.
Big chance for BIG BATTREY

If you want to refer to his authority, you might at least spend pocked change to clean up his past before announcing him as new advisory board member.

I have not looked much into Bob Lilienfeld and what kind of reputation "The ULS Report" has, but he/they have  quite some history of recommending rechargeable batteries, which is a much better solution than the Batteriser nonsense.
Maybe he wants to become the "Matthew Lesko" of greenwashing.

[joseph.anand]

.... Multiple switchers in series can create interference frequencies, and the switching noise of one batteriser could confuse the control-loop of the other.

I had faced a similar problem. Except that my circuit being powered (an oscillator) was affecting the boost circuit which in turn fed back to my circuit. Had to use an LDO in between the two to fix it.

[LabSpokane]

Then there is the issue of the test protocols that are being submitted to test laboratories that bear little resemblance to the actual normal operation region of the device. I fully understand the need for a passive load in an RF chamber. Using a 1K ohm resistor to generate a 2.25 mW load on a device that supposedly works best on a high drain device with a 100-200X load does not make a representative test. It is surprising that someone would submit such a "test" to the FCC as the basis for approval.  I could understand the 2.25 mW load as part of a *series* of tests, but certainly not as the one and only test.

A test with multiple batterisers in series would also be necessary IMO. Almost all devices I know need at least 2 batteries, so that's very normal use-case. Multiple switchers in series can create interference frequencies, and the switching noise of one batteriser could confuse the control-loop of the other. I also think it would be more realistic to connect the resistor with wires of 10cm or so.

While I highly suspect that arbitrarily daisy chaining boost converters in series is going to cause issues, that one is much tougher to test. Daisy chaining four batterisers in series is going to give people efficiency nightmares. Four 90% efficient boost converters will yield a 65% conversion process.

[Bud]

This is a self-extinct product, people will be throwing it away together with the depleted batteries either because they forget or because they thought it was a one time use thingy.

[edy]

If you want to refer to his authority, you might at least spend pocked change to clean up his past before announcing him as new advisory board member.

I have not looked much into Bob Lilienfeld and what kind of reputation "The ULS Report" has, but he/they have  quite some history of recommending rechargeable batteries, which is a much better solution than the Batteriser nonsense.
Maybe he wants to become the "Matthew Lesko" of greenwashing.

These shady business people can hide among real companies and live off VC funding for years, then move on once the business fails. They make enough to live for 5-10 years, then sprout back up again. Look at Stephen Marsh and his team of suits who raised over 1 million on IGG to make the "Airing" CPAP device, which is looking to be a complete scam. His background is not clean either. Same pattern of creating a fuel or energy cell related company with VC cash and then coming up with absolutely nothing.

The VC's just throw money at anything and hope some of it sticks and it becomes huge. They figure they might lose some, but better to fund it. Why not do some due diligence like asking for an independent review to determine if the company actually has any leg to stand on, or are they inventing or trying to sell something impossible?

Some would call it white collar crime, and the amount of money being swindled probably dwarfs the other thefts by more violent criminals. But nobody is forcing VC's and IGG backers from giving them money. They should have done their homework!

[nitro2k01]

While I highly suspect that arbitrarily daisy chaining boost converters in series is going to cause issues, that one is much tougher to test. Daisy chaining four batterisers in series is going to give people efficiency nightmares. Four 90% efficient boost converters will yield a 65% conversion process.

I think you misread that. Not 4 of them stacked, but 4 batteries in series, each with a Batteriser. That's going to give you "just" the same loss as in one unit, assuming no additional probldms like interference. It won't automatically give you (.9)^4.

[Galenbo]

...Or do they still maintain they cooked up their own converter in a QFN package, without infringing on the existing patents?

You entered an interesting aspect here.

[LabSpokane]

While I highly suspect that arbitrarily daisy chaining boost converters in series is going to cause issues, that one is much tougher to test. Daisy chaining four batterisers in series is going to give people efficiency nightmares. Four 90% efficient boost converters will yield a 65% conversion process.

I think you misread that. Not 4 of them stacked, but 4 batteries in series, each with a Batteriser. That's going to give you "just" the same loss as in one unit, assuming no additional probldms like interference. It won't automatically give you (.9)^4.

I henceforth shall forsake interwebbing in the midst of performing bicycle repair.

[Smokey]

Come on guys.  It's been hours and no new posts!  Is interest finally fading??

[miguelvp]

Come on guys.  It's been hours and no new posts!  Is interest finally fading??

It reached the cut off voltage

Edit: we need a blogeriser to get it going to 20,800 post.

[Halcyon]

Come on guys.  It's been hours and no new posts!  Is interest finally fading??

Nope, I think we're all just waiting for the next episode of the Batteroo Comedy Show. I'm sure those crazy kids are busy thinking up some more funnies for us.

[Muttley Snickers]

I don't know what the go is with IGG purchases but in certain countries the consumer has rights in regards to warranties and goods failing to work as promoted, I would expect that these products are provided with an invoice or proof of sale should a claim be required.

Additionally if I had the motivation and if this product failed as promoted then a list of those web sites that openly advertised the gadget as being a revolutionary concept would be added to my router as blocked sites, never to be visited again, not even by accident.

Good work by all concerned....

Muttley
   

[AmmoJammo]

I found these in some old PC hardware I got...

Made in Australia, haven't leaked, and appear to be dated the 5th week, 1993...

And each cell is still sitting at 0.8volts...

Now, do they work in my led torch?

[EEVblog]

So 5 days left in the campaign, and looks like they might get say $375K
After fees they'll maybe get $345K and by my count they have sold 120K units (all types)
So they have to produce them and ship them at $2.82 per unit just the break even, not including their half dozen staff and all the money they have spent up until this point.
Good luck.

[Fungus]

So they have to produce them and ship them at $2.82 per unit just the break even, not including their half dozen staff and all the money they have spent up until this point.
Good luck.

Rubbing in the salt?

[Chipguy]

So they have to produce them and ship them at $2.82 per unit just the break even, not including their half dozen staff and all the money they have spent up until this point. Good luck.

The only way that price would work is that they use chinese one hung lo parts, chinese back yard manufacturing and chinese shipping like we see on these DC/DC converters you can get cheap from ebay for example.

I personally think they will never ship large quantities and go bankrupt even blaming it on all the "Battery industry paid hate videos and articles" or something. And I hope that I am wrong.

[EEVblog]

So they have to produce them and ship them at $2.82 per unit just the break even, not including their half dozen staff and all the money they have spent up until this point.
Good luck.

Rubbing in the salt?

Nope, just pointing out a common scenario that many of these crowd funding campaigns find themselves in. Successful, but not successful enough to actually make a profit, so unless they can get money from somewhere else, they will go out of business.
In reality though, Batteriser have a lot of money behind them from a VC company, hence their crazy low crowd funding goal. Their goal is clearly not to make money from this campaign (and that's good for them, because they won't make money), it's just a stepping stone to their grander plan.
Will be interesting to see how long it takes them to deliver.
And of course once they deliver a single unit, the technical world will be able to actually test it and verify it, which I'm sure they are not looking forward to. If they were looking forward to it then they would have already handed them out like candy to all their critics.

[EEVblog]

I personally think they will never ship large quantities and go bankrupt even blaming it on all the "Battery industry paid hate videos and articles" or something. And I hope that I am wrong.

I don't see that happening, they have too much invested in this, and too many big names looking to cash-in. The VC will continue to fund until they deliver and no doubt get that huge retail Walmart type deal they must be lusting after. That's the big game, the indiegogo campaign is chump change.

[Fungus]

I don't see that happening, they have too much invested in this, and too many big names looking to cash-in. The VC will continue to fund until they deliver and no doubt get that huge retail Walmart type deal they must be lusting after. That's the big game, the indiegogo campaign is chump change.

Yep. If they can get it into Walmart then it'll sell millions no matter how many bad reviews it has on the 'net.

Walmart isn't stupid, they'll test it of course. At the end of the day though they'll only be looking at the profit margin and the percentage of people who are likely to return it.

We know that short term it will appear to work - battery level indicators will jump to 100%, etc. Will that be enough to confuse people and stop them from returning it? The time it all takes to implode and move on to the next big scam will depend a lot on psychology.

[firewalker]

When are they going to ship? Around Xmas?

Alexander.

[EEVblog]

Yep. If they can get it into Walmart then it'll sell millions no matter how many bad reviews it has on the 'net.

They have the former CEO of K-Mart on their team for a reason.

Walmart isn't stupid, they'll test it of course.

They plug it in and it'll "work" of course. They'll look at the UL and FCC reports and tick, approved.

[Godzil]

They said November for the backers

[Fungus]

Walmart isn't stupid, they'll test it of course.

They plug it in and it'll "work" of course. They'll look at the UL and FCC reports and tick, approved.

Walmart isn't too proud to sell useless laundry balls and magnetic fung-shui insoles to people, they just don't want any returns.

The insole people probably aren't going to come back and say "I've been wearing them for two weeks and I'm not rich yet".

The Batteriser is actually measurable though. A claim of "8x longer" is easy to see. You'll small a rat as soon as you put them in a flashlight expecting it to come back to life for more than 2 minutes.