EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[Brumby]

New challenge - find a single product where Batterizer offers any advantage.
Then calculate payback time.

Battery companies sell their batteries with Batteroo sleeves included.

Payback time ... about 3 to 6 weeks.

[amyk]

AA size Li-ion cell (does anyone make those?)

Yes, they are called 14500 and have the same voltages as other lions (~3V cutoff to 4.2V full).

[SL4P]

New challenge - find a single product where Batterizer offers any advantage.
Then calculate payback time.

OK... Let's design a product that benefits from the usage of the batteriser... 

Alexander.

Got it...  a Boob toy. (That happens to look like a trash can)

[samgab]

AA size Li-ion cell (does anyone make those?)

Yes, they are called 14500 and have the same voltages as other lions (~3V cutoff to 4.2V full).

I think edavid was asking about AA sized cells which have a li-ion cell and a 1.5V constant voltage buck converter and charging circuitry built in, like these: http://www.unbatteries.com/
These could do with some extensive testing too, to see if they perform at all.






Edit: User HKJ has already done some extensive testing of these here: http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Kentli%20AA%202800mWh%20(Blue)%20UK.html

Also:
Another teardown: https://ripitapart.com/2014/12/06/teardown-of-kentli-ph5-1-5-v-li-ion-aa-battery/
And some more testing: https://ripitapart.com/2015/06/17/performance-analysisreview-of-kentli-ph5-li-ion-1-5v-aa-battery/

You need to use a special charger as they have an indented inner ring around the positive pin which provides access to the 4.2V cell for CC/CV charging. You could either use any of the special Kentli chargers, or you could get little metal rings and use one of the chargers used for charging cylindrical li-ion cells.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4pcs-KENTLI-1-5v-2800mWh-rechargeable-Lithium-AA-PH5-battery-with-USB-Charger-/390935168431?hash=item5b058d45af:g:dUAAAOSw9N1VgpMl

Kentli vs Duracell Alkaline AA Cells:

-Source: http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/CommonAAcomparator.php

There are also these ZNTER AA versions, which have charge circuitry and a micro-USB slot built in:
http://www.banggood.com/ZNTER-1_5V-1250mAh-USB-Rechargeable-AA-Li-Po-Battery-p-1069778.html

[PeterL]

New challenge - find a single product where Batterizer offers any advantage.

done.

And no worries, he's a professional

[ElektroQuark]

No professional will use an untested new device is his workflow on "production". NEVER.

[kalleboo]

Can't wait for his reaction when he figures out what's going on when it suddenly cuts out in the middle of a gig...

[SpaceCow]

Can't wait for his reaction when he figures out what's going on when it suddenly cuts out in the middle of a gig...

The sad thing is he probably will never associate what is actually going on with the batterizer.

[meeder]

The thing is that he is using them on eneloop NiMH batteries. No wonder his battery gauge doesn't  drop the devices he uses are probably calibrated on 1.5V instead of 1.2V.

[Kalvin]

New challenge - find a single product where Batterizer offers any advantage.

done.

And no worries, he's a professional

Yes, he is professional. And after the Batteriser cuts off during a gig, he will also be experienced.

[Domagoj T]

He probably thinks he can go on another gig with his untouched batteries.

1,2,3... 1,2,3... testing....
Does this thing work?

[rich]

"This next song is in the key of B-flat..."

As a professional musician he shouldn't be expected to know that the battery gauge is rendered useless, he doesn't claim to be an engineer. But as usual, Batteroo fail to mention this to the people who they took money off 

He seems a happy customer, so I assume he didn't have any switching noise making its way into the final mix or killing the wireless range.

[rollatorwieltje]

New challenge - find a single product where Batterizer offers any advantage.

done.

And no worries, he's a professional

Was that the guy who was responsible for screwing up Mariah Carey's new year's eve performance?

[Delta]

"This next song is in the key of B-flat..."

As a professional musician he shouldn't be expected to know that the battery gauge is rendered useless, he doesn't claim to be an engineer. But as usual, Batteroo fail to mention this to the people who they took money off 

He seems a happy customer, so I assume he didn't have any switching noise making its way into the final mix or killing the wireless range.

I find it hard to believe that these things would be usable with analogue radio equipment. 

[tszaboo]

The thing is that he is using them on eneloop NiMH batteries. No wonder his battery gauge doesn't  drop the devices he uses are probably calibrated on 1.5V instead of 1.2V.

Using batteriser on NiMH is probably the best way to kill them fast. Secondary batteries dont like to be over discharged.

[drussell]

I find it hard to believe that these things would be usable with analogue radio equipment.

All the recent wireless stuff uses digital transmission for the RF.

[Hensingler]

Using batteriser on NiMH is probably the best way to kill them fast. Secondary batteries dont like to be over discharged.

Have you got a reputable reference stating NiMH cells are damaged by complete discharge? I am having trouble finding anything. This http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/nickelmetalhydride_appman.pdf seems to indicate damage does not start until the terminal voltage is reversed.

Batteriseroo claimed the batteriseroo prevents reverse charging. They also state the bateriseroo is not suitable for use with rechargeable batteries which is something I never understood.

[Delta]

I find it hard to believe that these things would be usable with analogue radio equipment.

All the recent wireless stuff uses digital transmission for the RF.

Is that so?  I thought there were latency issues due to the encoding/decoding that meant analogue methods were still used for live audio work... Ah well, i need to keep up...

[tszaboo]

Using batteriser on NiMH is probably the best way to kill them fast. Secondary batteries dont like to be over discharged.

Have you got a reputable reference stating NiMH cells are damaged by complete discharge? I am having trouble finding anything. This http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/nickelmetalhydride_appman.pdf seems to indicate damage does not start until the terminal voltage is reversed.

Batteriseroo claimed the batteriseroo prevents reverse charging. They also state the bateriseroo is not suitable for use with rechargeable batteries which is something I never understood.

http://www.ni-cd.net/accusphp/forum/docjoints/ID214_methode%20Nimh.pdf

figure 3.

[meeder]

I find it hard to believe that these things would be usable with analogue radio equipment.

All the recent wireless stuff uses digital transmission for the RF.

Is that so?  I thought there were latency issues due to the encoding/decoding that meant analogue methods were still used for live audio work... Ah well, i need to keep up...

It seems to be a huge debate on the topic analog vs digital.

http://shureblog.co.uk/analogue-vs-digital-wireless-microphones/

[StillTrying]

No professional will use an untested new device is his workflow on "production". NEVER.

It's OK, his first batteroo test was just a one off - a live 6 hour New Years Eve gig. 

[drussell]

Is that so?  I thought there were latency issues due to the encoding/decoding that meant analogue methods were still used for live audio work... Ah well, i need to keep up...

I shouldn't have said all, I should have said some of the newer stuff is digital...

[FrankBuss]

As a professional musician he shouldn't be expected to know that the battery gauge is rendered useless, he doesn't claim to be an engineer. But as usual, Batteroo fail to mention this to the people who they took money off 

Even if your are not an engineer and don't know the details, it should be logical that if the battery gauge shows 100% all the time, that it suddenly has to go to 0%, or at least faster than normal at the end.

And the FAQ says they don't recommend using it for rechargeable batteries. But unfortunately they don't mention the reason: most likely you destroy such batteries, or at least reduce the capacity drastically, because of deep discharge.

[Hensingler]

Using batteriser on NiMH is probably the best way to kill them fast. Secondary batteries dont like to be over discharged.

Have you got a reputable reference stating NiMH cells are damaged by complete discharge? I am having trouble finding anything. This http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/nickelmetalhydride_appman.pdf seems to indicate damage does not start until the terminal voltage is reversed.

Batteriseroo claimed the batteriseroo prevents reverse charging. They also state the bateriseroo is not suitable for use with rechargeable batteries which is something I never understood.

http://www.ni-cd.net/accusphp/forum/docjoints/ID214_methode%20Nimh.pdf

figure 3.

That isn't damage though just claimed life reduction from deep discharging which pretty much all applications for your NiMH cells already do. The capacity difference between cut off at the generally recommended 0.9v and the 0.6v they claimed the batteriseroo would go down to is trivial.

Do you know of any equipment which stops at say 70% discharge because it increases life?

[Fungus]

As a professional musician he shouldn't be expected to know that the battery gauge is rendered useless, he doesn't claim to be an engineer. But as usual, Batteroo fail to mention this to the people who they took money off 

Even if your are not an engineer and don't know the details, it should be logical that if the battery gauge shows 100% all the time, that it suddenly has to go to 0%, or at least faster than normal at the end.

Or... you might think they're going to last 8x as long (as promised in the advert!)

He's in for a rude awakening, that's for sure. Let's just hope he goes back and posts another comment when it happens.

Batteriser will be used in more than toys. I wonder if Bob is OK with people's equipment suddenly dying in the middle of an important concert (televised/paying public) because the battery gauge isn't working? Will he put a warning/disclaimer on the pack?


PS: Is nobody here going to reply to that comment on IGG? I know there's a few stealthy backers.