Author Topic: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)  (Read 3089092 times)

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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #1325 on: September 03, 2015, 06:55:22 am »
I'm also in the camp of "this is barely even about the Batteriser company anymore" since genius decided to make it personal.

Were is all this chat? presumably on Google+ somewhere? Can you provide a link please? (I don't use G+ and have no idea how to find stuff...)
 

Offline Kean

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #1326 on: September 03, 2015, 07:24:26 am »
I'm also in the camp of "this is barely even about the Batteriser company anymore" since genius decided to make it personal.

Were is all this chat? presumably on Google+ somewhere? Can you provide a link please? (I don't use G+ and have no idea how to find stuff...)

The link to the YT comments in G+ seems to be hard to track down unless specifically made public.  The way I found the link was after someone else commented on the same thread I had, I then got a notification in G+.  From that notification, you can click into a "deep" link such as from the timestamp from the original comment, and it appears to ignore the YT moderation.  That's the link I shared a few pages back: https://plus.google.com/106095496873834311761/posts/9zCvkcWPjhu

I don't have a link to Mayo's comments so I can't track his above mentioned posts down.  Looks like the Batteriser Fan Page guy has been deleting many of his abusive comments anyway.
 

Offline Kean

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #1327 on: September 03, 2015, 07:28:54 am »
Looks like the Batteriser Fan Page guy has been deleting many of his abusive comments anyway.

Actually, scratch that.  I can now see the couple of comments I thought had gone missing (the ones directed at me).
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #1328 on: September 03, 2015, 07:45:23 am »
That's the link I shared a few pages back: https://plus.google.com/106095496873834311761/posts/9zCvkcWPjhu

Wow  :o
All this fun happening I didn't know about!
Seems like he's stopped posting now.
I wouldn't be surprised if he nuked the whole Youtube channel  and g+ account.
Those playing along at home should take captures while they still can.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #1329 on: September 03, 2015, 07:54:36 am »
Regarding the Batteriser full length explanation video http://youtu.be/622uCZ_pE0w at least there is an attempt to make a technical explanation.

o Brief current peaks exhibited by some devices will indeed cause brief voltage dips, and will be deeper as the cells deplete and their internal resistance increases, also exacerbated by the decreasing cell voltage as they discharge.

o The GPS used explicitly recommends the use of NiMH or Li cells instead of Alkaline, presumeably because of the inferior internal resistance of alkaline cells, thus making the voltage dips during high current load worse.

o There is continual requoting that the GPS is "well designed", however I wouldn't say so if the device was designed for alkaline batteries and reboots when the voltage dips due to creating 600mA current spikes. However, Garmin recommend NiMH and Li presumeably for exactly this reason. Online reviews of the device refer to strange battery behaviour too, so is it really that "well designed"?

o The presenter repeatedly mixes up energy, current and charge, and repeatedly ignores voltage when calculating remaining energy during a constant current test, on three occasions trying to place a completely arbitrarily placed current line on a voltage axis.

o The GPS test is not a representative use case. Not only are they not using recommended cells, the high energy, sunlight-readable display is continually kept active by tapping the touch screen. In real use this would not be the case. In addition, the GPS will continually be in acquisition mode as the test is performed inside.

In short, there is at least some technical point to the video, but still there are still some fundamental errors.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 08:02:19 am by Howardlong »
 

Offline bookaboo

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #1330 on: September 03, 2015, 08:23:19 am »
^
I watched that video last night and the problem of voltage dips causing brownouts can be genuine if the product is poorly designed. It's not hard to solve at design stage with a good regulator selection and enough capacitance to ride out the dips. With that said, if the batteriser people had started with legitimate data showing this problem and some repeatable tests showing they solve it they would have gotten support here. In fact they *might* (published repeatable data depending) have a chance of a niche practical product.

However at 8.40 in the same video there's what looks to be a significant (deliberate?) error in how they work out the remaining energy in the battery. I'm pretty sure the area under the curve is the correct method, I really don't see how the original open cell voltage has anything to do with it.
 

Offline samgab

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #1331 on: September 03, 2015, 08:36:59 am »
- Anyone who has used the "Approach" series Garmin golf GPS in question knows that the test is set up and fake. The message which comes up where they stop the test on Alkalines is a nag screen which you can "okay" to get past, and then the device continues working fine for another 8 plus hours after that. It basically says that the screen will reduce in brightness and to avoid that you should really use NiMH cells rather than Alkaline. The device has not "died" at that point.
- The analogy of the snail climbing the wall is not analogous at all, and has no relevance to the subject.
- Devices don't just suddenly die the moment they get a current spike that drops the battery to 1.1V. That is ridiculous, and no AA-run device works that way, regardless of their "test" of the Garmin. When a device uses spikes of current so great that it causes the cells to suddenly dip in voltage, and just as suddenly recovery, if they're "smart" devices, they have capacitance built in to smooth that out, and electronics to deal with the dips and troughs. If they're a "dumb" device, like a simple motor driven toy, then the device will keep running regardless of noise peaks and dips in the voltage.
- All of their tests are faked or skewed in some way using cherry-picked devices with very specific test conditions shown to make it appear that their device is working.

A good way to test their claims without even having a Batteriser would be to run alkalines in typical devices; remotes, mice, DMM's, toy trains, cymbal playing monkeys (?), etc; until they stop functioning at all (not just until a low battery message comes up).
Then, take the "dead" Alkaline cells and discharge them with test equipment logging the voltage and current to calculate the total power dischargeable from the cell.
That will show how much energy really remained in the cell after that particular device said it was "dead" (Because that's what is important, the remaining energy, not the open circuit voltage, of course, as everyone on this forum already knows).
Then you can take the total energy that type of cell has from new (according to the datasheets or from testing new cells of the same type), subtract the remaining energy, divide by the amount of time the device ran until it thought the battery was dead, and you will be able to calculate how much extra running time you might get if you were able to eke every single mWh out of the cells.
From my own experience and tests (not usable as my equipment isn't lab grade), when my AA-run devices say their battery is dead, the cells have very very little usable energy left in them, regardless of what open circuit voltage the cells recover to after being removed. (Anyway, I've switched everything over to eneloops nowadays. My days of using Alkalines are long gone (except in super low energy devices like wall clocks, remote controls, and DMMs)).

As has already been stated previously, most modern devices that run on AA cells are very good at using up nearly all of the available energy in the cells.
I think part of that is because most of the AA devices (those I own and use anyway), are designed to also run well on NIMH cells, so they all work fine down to 0.8-0.9V/Cell (under load), at which point there is really very little energy remaining in any cell, Alkaline or NiMH.
 

Offline neotesla

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #1332 on: September 03, 2015, 08:37:10 am »
lpickup summarizes pretty well what I meant. Also when Dave calls someone as "clown" it is throwing gasoline on the fire.... as an example.

There are still nastier (and yet correct) names for people who use that kind of phony marketing for their products, let alone pay some poor sods in Vietnam to dislike Dave's videos.

But it's OK, I suppose, for us to disagree. The matter seems to be resolving itself, anyway (which is good). :)
 

Offline samgab

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #1333 on: September 03, 2015, 08:51:13 am »
...at 8.40 in the same video there's what looks to be a significant (deliberate?) error in how they work out the remaining energy in the battery. I'm pretty sure the area under the curve is the correct method, I really don't see how the original open cell voltage has anything to do with it.

Yes, you're exactly right. "Frankie" was switching back and forth between remaining ENERGY and remaining TIME. Yes, the current in a constant current discharge test remains the same, but because the VOLTAGE is dropping, the POWER is also dropping, so the area contained in the small lower part of the curve is indeed the remaining energy, not the large area shown with the straight line which he drew in.

There are two possibilities. 1: He's incredibly ignorant about a product he had a part in designing and is marketing. or 2: He's deliberately skewing tests and using sleight of hand marketing to trick people.
Given his business and electronics history, I'd say it was the latter. He seems like particularly weasley kind of person to me, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if he was involved in nasty little tricks like paying for negative youtube votes to detractors. The whole thing about the 500 patents and 200 more in the pipeline, and how he was describing himself and his "brain", all just reeks of sleazy businessman to me. The 700 patents are probably more about him litigating big business for breaches of his so-called patents and reaching monetary settlements than 700 actual inventions he's come up with...  Maybe I'm wrong, but this entire marketing strategy for this little product gives me a bad feeling about him and his "team".
 

Offline Mayo2017

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #1334 on: September 03, 2015, 08:59:58 am »
I wouldn't be surprised if he nuked the whole Youtube channel  and g+ account.
Those playing along at home should take captures while they still can.

Oh believe me, I got lots of them I posted quite some pages back. I REFUSED to stop hammering until I came out on top, whether that makes me persistent or an asshole I don't know. The apology conversation I had with him/them and posted a few posts up was on one of Matthew Lesko's videos, not on any Batteriser-affiliated channel. I tried to keep it there so they couldn't mute or delete things quite so easily. It goes for quite a while.

Edit: In the interest of transparency and record-keeping, here's the full saga.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 09:31:27 am by Mayo2017 »
 

Offline SteveyG

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #1335 on: September 03, 2015, 09:29:37 am »
Now that there is a circuit to look at, I have some questions. First, it looks like their diode may be an LED as the photos show a yellow SMD on the top of the PCB. Either way, isn't there a voltage drop (forward voltage) expected across a diode? Wouldn't the Batteriser need to output even greater voltage to overcome the diode?

Second, the PWM signal has to be powered by the battery as well. It appears to short the battery through the inductor, then when it is off the inductor current and voltage add to the battery. Is the PWM changing duty cycle based on the sensed voltage? It would barely need to be on initially when the battery is full, but again the diode voltage drop would need to be overcome.

Also during time PWM is on and shorting the battery (loading up the inductor), the load wouldn't get any voltage/current? Wouldn't it just average out?

Dave, I think we need a good Fundamentals Friday on that schematic and how it works, and other boost circuits.

This is the basic schematic for a boost converter and is covered in every boost converter tutorial. I do not think there is anything to be analysed here. The nuances of more sophisticated DC-DCs for use at extra low voltages are more interesting and akin to a video Dave has done in the past on energy harvesting.
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Offline Joule Thief

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #1336 on: September 03, 2015, 10:18:10 am »
Dave, I think we need a good Fundamentals Friday on that schematic and how it works, and other boost circuits.

Another member on the forum has created a very detailed explanation of a boost converter operation. Check out his YouTube video(s) - great stuff!

Perturb and observe.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #1337 on: September 03, 2015, 10:36:40 am »
^
I watched that video last night and the problem of voltage dips causing brownouts can be genuine if the product is poorly designed. It's not hard to solve at design stage with a good regulator selection and enough capacitance to ride out the dips.

Precisely.

Quote
However at 8.40 in the same video there's what looks to be a significant (deliberate?) error in how they work out the remaining energy in the battery. I'm pretty sure the area under the curve is the correct method, I really don't see how the original open cell voltage has anything to do with it.

The way I read it was that he was placing a 100mA constant current at an arbitrary place on the the voltage axis. If it were the off-load voltage, then that too will decrease. If it is meant to be the voltage when it comes fresh out of the pack as you say then that too has little relevance.
 

Offline Galenbo

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #1338 on: September 03, 2015, 10:56:06 am »
The batteriser guy states now that he contacted Dave in many ways.
The main reason I don't believe it, is that for the first time he's polite, even overly, and the answer he said to have received isn't the style I know from Dave.

Google screenshot in attachment.
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Offline Howardlong

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #1339 on: September 03, 2015, 10:57:38 am »
- ... the device continues working fine for another 8 plus hours after that. It basically says that the screen will reduce in brightness and to avoid that you should really use NiMH cells rather than Alkaline. The device has not "died" at that point.
That would seem to be reflected by user experience on Amazon, about three rounds of golf.
Quote
- The analogy of the snail climbing the wall is not analogous at all, and has no relevance to the subject.
That passed me by too. I couldn't see the relevance.

On another note, there seems to be a subtle change in the Batteriser use case: rather than using the Batteriser with the cells all the time, there seems to be a suggestion that you only slip them on when a cell is starting to fail in a device.
 

Offline lpickup

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #1340 on: September 03, 2015, 11:07:35 am »
...
o There is continual requoting that the GPS is "well designed", however I wouldn't say so if the device was designed for alkaline batteries and reboots when the voltage dips due to creating 600mA current spikes. However, Garmin recommend NiMH and Li presumeably for exactly this reason. Online reviews of the device refer to strange battery behaviour too, so is it really that "well designed"?
...
o The GPS test is not a representative use case. Not only are they not using recommended cells, the high energy, sunlight-readable display is continually kept active by tapping the touch screen. In real use this would not be the case. In addition, the GPS will continually be in acquisition mode as the test is performed inside.

I don't necessarily have a problem with these two issues raised.  In the latter statement, sure, it's not a representative use case, but at least it's apples to apples.  It speeds up the test by keeping the backlight on.  We do similar types of accelerated lifetime testing so we don't have to literally test a product out to 100K power on hours.  The one caveat is this though:  as I've mentioned before, use of the Batteriser will defeat the screen dimming power saving feature and theoretically shorten battery life because of that.  If the device is readable in all situations where it would be used without the backlight, then I would say yes, it's fair to test the unit without the "finger pressing".  Although in this case, it seems like a really poor design that the backlight is on unnecessarily when the battery is fresh.

As for the former issue:  use in older and poorly designed products.  My feeling is that if there are a lot of these products out there in people's homes, then it's fair to put those types of products forward as candidates for Batteriser use.  If there really were a lot of these products that had high cut-off voltages or shut off prematurely after the slightest "kiss" of the cut-off voltage, then fine, there is a case to be made for the Batteriser.  Dave showed in the first video that high cut-off voltage devices don't exist (although I will say that Dave probably has higher than average quality devices lying around).  And I bet they had to specifically search for a device that exhibited this kind of behavior.  I don't think it's common at all.

I guess most damning though is the fact that I am now convinced that they cheated on the GPS test.  Did the GPS actually shut off shortly after the screen dimmed or did they just declare it dead and turn it off manually.  I don't think there was enough to go on in the original video to make this call.  But very clearly in the full length video Chris points to the point at which the device died, and clearly it did not.  I'm usually willing to give people the benefit of the doubt until more data is provided, but in this case I really think they cheated.
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #1341 on: September 03, 2015, 11:16:10 am »
The batteriser guy states now that he contacted Dave in many ways.
The main reason I don't believe it, is that for the first time he's polite, even overly, and the answer he said to have received isn't the style I know from Dave.
Dave stated multiple times that they didn't contact him. I guess it is as wrong as their defamation that Dave did the image with the twins sisters and the monkey head, which I think was not a good idea, but from another EEVblog poster, not from Dave.
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #1342 on: September 03, 2015, 11:23:22 am »
The batteriser guy states now that he contacted Dave in many ways.
The main reason I don't believe it, is that for the first time he's polite, even overly, and the answer he said to have received isn't the style I know from Dave.
Dave stated multiple times that they didn't contact him. I guess it is as wrong as their defamation that Dave did the image with the twins sisters and the monkey head, which I think was not a good idea, but from another EEVblog poster, not from Dave.

For the last time, neither this "fan page guy", nor anyone connected with Batteriser has ever contacted me by email. EVER.
I have never replied to anyone because I have never got any email from them! I'd love to see proof of that email.
And what "public discussion" and what "page"?
If it's Google+ I have said multiple times I do not use Google+, I don't see anything on Google+, nor do I follow comment on their videos.

« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 11:31:47 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline AmmoJammo

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #1343 on: September 03, 2015, 11:25:21 am »
For the last time, neither this "fan page guy", nor anyone connected with Batteriser has ever contacted me by email.
I have never replied to anyone because I have never got any email from them! I'd love to see proof of that email.



Why would they contact you?
For a $2.50 device, they'd just send it to you and hope you did a review...
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #1344 on: September 03, 2015, 11:42:06 am »
I guess all that's left to do is wait for this Batteriser product to actually be manufactured and sent out (if it ever happens). All the science behind it has already been proven (or disproven) by Dave, meanwhile Batteroo (and everyone remotely associated with them) have been left looking like absolute fools.

We just have to twiddle our thumbs... and wait... until then, it's business as usual for the EEVblog. Keep it up DJ  :-+
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #1345 on: September 03, 2015, 11:54:14 am »
On another note, there seems to be a subtle change in the Batteriser use case: rather than using the Batteriser with the cells all the time, there seems to be a suggestion that you only slip them on when a cell is starting to fail in a device.

It sounds like a good idea...until you find out you only get a few more minutes of life before you have to put some more batteries in it.

How many times would you do that before you decide it's a waste of time?
 

Offline SundayProgrammer

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #1346 on: September 03, 2015, 12:30:03 pm »

For the last time, neither this "fan page guy", nor anyone connected with Batteriser has ever contacted me by email. EVER.

I think that at least one contact was made a week ago. It is a comment post to a "#786" youtube video:
https://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=3OrG5ucVQBA

Axel.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #1347 on: September 03, 2015, 12:37:43 pm »
I think that at least one contact was made a week ago. It is a comment post to a "#786" youtube video:
https://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=3OrG5ucVQBA
In a comment on the Sydney maker faire video?  :palm:

 

Offline Nerull

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #1348 on: September 03, 2015, 12:45:04 pm »
For me the video "eevBLAB #13 - Buying Youtube DISLIKES! - The Batteriser" was Dave crossing the line I wish he would not cross. It means that Dave keeps the debate as personal level as the Batteriser crew does.

And yes, I also decided to take on a response to the clown running the "fan page" who made some very serious accusations against me.
This is not about Batteriser the company.

Yep, I was afraid that you'd reply that "but....they started it...".
Well... Batteriser (fan boys or what ever bunch of people they are) related ranting was entertaining for a while but it has now getting shapes which seem to be uglier and uglier every day. Enough of Batteriser related ranting.
Just ignore Batteriser fan boys barking - they are not worth it.

Axel.

I'm sure the people who get ripped off and lose money will be happy that the people who could have warned them decided to keep quiet.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #1349 on: September 03, 2015, 01:19:00 pm »
I think that at least one contact was made a week ago. It is a comment post to a "#786" youtube video:
https://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=3OrG5ucVQBA

On my Maker Faire video!  :-DD
No wonder I didn't see it.
 


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