new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004

[nctnico]

In general I prefer to use a real spectrum analyser for spectrum analysis. I use my oscilloscopes only for doing spectrum analysis on low frequency signals (say below 1MHz).

Whether selling your oscilloscopes is a good idea depends on what price you can sell them for. I wouldn't expect to get anywhere near the list price. Count on needing to add extra money if you want to buy the RTM3004.

[Neurosurg]

I was aiming at RTE1024 heh
There's one on ebay for $9k.
RTM3004, apart from programming spectrum analysis, which could be in RTB, but it is known about giving new extra tools to the model above.

And RTE1000 is a completely different story, only expensive

[Ecogeek]

With the R&S RTB2002, RTB2004 I needed to check the Frequency counter and Generator accuracy.
I purchased a Leo Bodnar Electronics MiniGPS 10 Mhz Reference clock. I used the output to connect to one channel 50ohm feedthrough termination and used this as the reference for the RTB trigger and counter measurement.

The second input was connected to the Generator output of similar amplitude and set the frequency to minimal difference. The specification of the RTB is +/-2.5PPM which should give at 10Mhz +/- 25Hz range. The frequency readout of the Trigger Counter was within 5digits +/-20Hz.
After a bit of trial and error, I determined the RTB was approximately +15Hz, and stable within 1Hz over a couple of daily temperature and power cycles.   This was very similar to "Peter's" +12MHz. So it would seem adjusting the RTB timebase should be possible to achieve +/ 2Hz short-term calibration checking against the GPS reference.
I also found that the Generator Frequency can be adjusted and displayed (when below 10MHz) to within 0.1Hz i.e. 9.99999855Mhz, above 10Mhz seems as if this is not so easy as while you are able to input the figures and Enter, the display is rounded to nearest 1Hz i.e. 10.000001.  As the RTB reference was measuring high the generator needed to be lower to compensate to give zero or slow movements between traces, so it was an easy task to accurately measure the frequency error to with 0.1Hz.

Using the R&S remote LAN interface and sending "DEV:MENU ADJ" on the SCPI device control, I was presented with the Frequency Adjust option menu on the RTB screen.  The default on mine was also "128". It appears the sensitivity is about 1.33Hz per unit, so I set the TCXO offset for 117 and pressed SAVE, a lower number decreases the reference frequency.  I was then presented with an RTB timebase frequency error <1Hz using my 10Mhz GPS-derived reference. 

Thanks for the previous poster Peter for the "undocumented" feature allowing the "simple" procedure to fine-trim the RTB timebase (and generator output frequency) within <0.1PPM. It would appear from the factory they are within the +/-2.5PPM spec so are not adjusted from default to give their best.
The remote frequency trigger reading  "TCO:RES:FREQ?" can also give an extra digit to 6 (a single Hz below 10Mhz  or 6 digits above).

I'll monitor the long-term frequency drift with the GPS 10Mhz reference and adjust the RTB as necessary, hopefully, easily maintaining the <0.1PPM frequency accuracy.

 

[MaxZ]

I'm facing a few issues around the function generator. I'm using it to control a vibration generator, which makes the following behavior much more noticeable than with purely electronic setups. Still, I'd think that it's not completely irrelevant for other use cases than mine.

First of all, enabling or disabling the FFT interrupts the function generator for about a second. Lacking a second scope, I haven't been able to check whether the output jumps to zero for that time or what it does. In any case, the mechanical setup is not happy because it's a sharp jump.
Similar issue for the bode plot utility: the transition from one frequency to the next one seems to be discontinuous; causing - once again - severe shocks in my mechanical setup, to the point where I can't use this feature. Is it possible to adjust it, such that the transition happens at zero crossing f.ex.? Similar to the wobble feature of the function generator, which is continuous as well.
I seem to remember other cases where changes to the function generator setting caused jumps in the output signal. I understand that this cannot always be avoided but I hope it can at least be somewhat improved.


Kind regards,
Max

[Miles Teg]

Hello,

I'm wondering why on my RTB the I2C the data decoding starts to fail and decode on 5bits only. 







Have you any advice?
Thanks

[Darkover]

I just found some realy strange behavier of my RTB2004:

http://www.criseis.ruhr.de/rs/Channel3.mov
http://www.criseis.ruhr.de/rs/Channel4.mov

I this a bug in the firmware? Or is something broken?

The offset of CH3 and CH4 is moving when changing the attenuation.
It did not happen at CH1 or CH2 and it survives a power cycle.

On the video you see it in current mode, but it also happens in voltage mode
when switching between 2V/div and 1V/div with 10:1 probe select. When 1:1
is selcted it happend between 200mV and 100mV.
It also happens between 500mV and 200mV. 500mV and 100mV are the same.
So I think there is something broken for the 200mV offset calibration,
but the same for two channel?

Olaf

[Darkover]

I started self calibration and it start at 0% and works up to 25% and than happens an error
with CH1. Hm...but CH1 is working.

If I start it gain it starts at 25% and stops. Even a powercycle did not help.

So I think I have to talk with the servicepeople of R&S because it is in warranty!


Olaf

[Darkover]

I agree with you. Very close with the exception that self allignment is not runing at my scope.

However, I open a service request and we will see what happens.

Olaf

[Hydron]

I haven't looked at the videos yet (on mobile hotspot right now) but given it's 2 channels at the same time, probably not the same issue I had (faulty VGA on one front-end). Maybe worth trying looking at the alignment log though, and also seeing what results you get on FW 2.000 or earlier.

[Darkover]

I don't have any alignment log because the alignment did not run. It stops at 25%.
I pushed "Factory Default" and start "Self alignment" again. After that the Self alignment starts
again at 0%, but it stops at 25% and reported an error with CH1.

That is strange by themself, because I think CH1 is working without any problem!

I don't like the idea to downgrade the firmware and it is hard to believe that R&S will allow it,
because at the moment there is 2.4 installed.
So I think I can not do anything than  :'( and wait what the service people will say tomorow.

Olaf

[Hydron]

FW downgrade is possible without any issues. You may be able to get the alignment log even though it doesn't complete successfully - I think I got it via USB (comes up as a storage device, log ends up in one of the folders). FW update can also be done via USB (drop the file into the FW folder, and then use the GUI to start the up/downgrade).

When I talked to UK service they were pretty useless (ignored it when I pointed out that I'd had a discussion with the R&S rep about getting it fixed under warranty as a good will gesture - was only slightly out of warranty) and wanted more money that I paid for the whole scope to do a "fixed price repair". Didn't push or escalate it as I had basically confirmed the cause of the issue at that point and was highly confident I could fix it myself (replacing the VGA did the trick as I expected).

[Darkover]

Today there was an email from R&S

> When I talked to UK service they were pretty useless

Probably you are right.
They agreed that my scope is under warranty, but they did not talk with private customer!
A strange world. What did they think what kind of people are buying an RTB2004 for fun?
It is true that I am a private owner, but I am also an employe at a huge company with
more than 180 developer and I guess they will talk with many of them in future.
A bad reputation can be very expensive for them in long term.

However, so now I start to talk with Batronix    --->Batronix - Innovative Tools. Excellent Service.
We will see how excellent there service will be.   

Olaf

[Hydron]

Interesting - I didn't have any issues as a private individual other than being asked to pay a big-corp repair fee. Was 3 years ago though, maybe they've done a keysight and given the middle finger to non-business customers in the meantime? (Since they did that I've avoided KS for work purchases too )
I would say it's not unreasonable asking you to go via Batronix in the first instance, but ONLY if they would still help if the distributor was unable or unwilling to. In my case I bought the scope in the US so it was going to be very tricky getting service from the distributor.

[skander36]

I had a very good experience with the help of Batronix for RTB2K scope as a private person.
Also for thechnical questions directly in Gloris they answer me promptly.

[Darkover]

> I had a very good experience with the help of Batronix for RTB2K scope as a private person.

I think this is true, because they ask me to send them the scope.

However it is a little bit sad, because I would bet that nothing is broken and it only needs
a calibration or some kind of brain washing.

Olaf

[skander36]

> I had a very good experience with the help of Batronix for RTB2K scope as a private person.

I think this is true, because they ask me to send them the scope.

However it is a little bit sad, because I would bet that nothing is broken and it only needs
a calibration or some kind of brain washing.

Olaf

The good part is that your scope will get a free calibration at least...

[gdr771]

Newark is offering the RTB2K-COM4 package for $3898.36:

https://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4p99/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/08AC3745,

and the RTB-BNDL for $4695:

https://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb-bndl/oscilloscope-300mhz-lcd-color/dp/57AK8667

But it seems the COM4 package contains every possible option, while the BNDL package might not have the MSO option, depending which part of the product page is to be believed.  Also, the US and Canadian Rohde & Schwarz sites do not list the MSO option under the BNDL package description.

Does anyone know the actual contents of the COM4 and BNDL packages?

[RBBVNL9]

Hi,

Does anyone know the actual contents of the COM4 and BNDL packages?

Attached is a 2021 document describing the bundles (aty least, the COM4 bundle). I assume the content of the bundles has not changed.

[Darkover]

I think 4000Euro is the normal price for an RTB with all bells and whistles in Europe.
That means all options, 300Mhz, two logic probes and four ugly analog probes.

If I memorize it right it is also possible to buy it much cheaper if your are still a student
at university, because the are special education sales.

Olaf

[kerouanton]

I think 4000Euro is the normal price for an RTB with all bells and whistles in Europe.
That means all options, 300Mhz, two logic probes and four ugly analog probes.

If I memorize it right it is also possible to buy it much cheaper if your are still a student
at university, because the are special education sales.

Yes, it's more or less the normal price. However it's interesting to see the differences between countries:
At conrad.ch the RTB2K-COM4 is CHF 3'438.25 (9% discount, normal price CHF 3'760.40)
At conrad.de the RTB2K-COM4 is EUR 4'200.84
At conrad.fr the RTB2K-COM4 is EUR 7'387.50 

Those prices are without VAT to help comparison.

According to xe.com, today CHF 3'428.25 is EUR 3'589.28, that's a EUR 611.56 price increase for Germany and EUR 3'798.22 increase for France   

And I'm *sure* that those scopes are similar, same  Part No.: 1333.1005P99 and EAN: 4250138105306 on those three sites, and same quantity remaining : 23 units in stock.

Beware, the EDU versions aren't fully loaded, it's often 70MHz scopes with the minimal options, so not really worth buying...

Refs:
Switzerland:  https://www.conrad.ch/de/p/rohde-schwarz-rtb2k-com4-digital-oszilloskop-300-mhz-20-kanal-1-25-gsa-s-10-mpts-10-bit-digital-speicher-dso-multi-1663798.html

Germany: https://www.conrad.de/de/p/rohde-schwarz-rtb2k-com4-digital-oszilloskop-300-mhz-20-kanal-1-25-gsa-s-10-mpts-10-bit-digital-speicher-dso-multi-1663798.htm

France: https://www.conrad.fr/fr/p/oscilloscope-numerique-rohde-schwarz-rtb2k-com4-300-mhz-20-canaux-1-25-gech-s-10-mpts-10-bits-memoire-numerique-dso-1663798.html

[gdr771]

I received my RTBK-COM4 package, and can confirm that it contains every possible option at the time of writing.  Weird that Newark is selling the -BNDL package with that pricing.

[kerouanton]

At conrad.ch the RTB2K-COM4 is CHF 3'438.25 (9% discount, normal price CHF 3'760.40)

I went back to the conrad.ch website this morning to discover that the 9% discount was now a 20% discount 

That's now CHF 2'989.79 (20% discount, normal price CHF 3'760.40) 

Now, I guess I'll buy one very soon  (not counting a CHF 20 discount coupon I got elsewhere, free 2 years warranty extension, and free shipping )

[kerouanton]

I received my RTBK-COM4 package, and can confirm that it contains every possible option at the time of writing.  Weird that Newark is selling the -BNDL package with that pricing.

Last week I had the opportunity to visit a Rohde&Schwartz booth at an exhibition, and asked about that. It seems that they decided to discontinue the -COM4 "all inclusive" package, and now only sell the -BNDL (without the MSO if I understood well). The -COM4 units are former stocks that were bought previously by resellers with the old price, and the -BNDL is the new (but less appealing) offer for new stocks, at the same time without the MSO and with an increased price. The R&S engineer I spoke to told me that if there was still -COM4 units at my reseller it would be wise to buy it before they no longer have them in stock, because the offer won't be available again. And he also admitted that the -9% discount (at the time, now -20%!) at my reseller is more appealing that what he could offer me with a demo unit directly from R&S.

That explains it. Maybe a Rohde&Schwarz engineer here (Rich, Paul?) could confirm that. And I was also told that the RTB2K is far from being EOL, which was what I was fearing...

[kerouanton]

RTB2K-COM4 ordered  And the discount coupon was not CHF20.- but an additional 10% on top of the already 20% discount, so my final order is even cheaper! What a bargain 

[pdenisowski]

I received my RTBK-COM4 package, and can confirm that it contains every possible option at the time of writing.  Weird that Newark is selling the -BNDL package with that pricing.

The R&S engineer I spoke to told me that if there was still -COM4 units at my reseller it would be wise to buy it before they have it, because the offer won't be available again. And he also admitted that the -9% discount (at the time, now -20%!) at my reseller is more appealing that what he could offer me with a demo unit directly from R&S.

That explains it. Maybe a Rohde&Schwarz engineer here (Rich, Paul?) could confirm that. And I was also told that the RTB2K is far from being EOL, which was what I was fearing...

Can't really comment on specific reseller pricing and promotions (since I don't personally track this), but I wouldn't be surprised if there are times when purchasing through a reseller is cheaper than purchasing directly from R&S.

But I can absolutely confirm that the RTB is nowhere near end of life.  The RTB will be around for a long time